Why Pretrib Logic Fails

[Retrobyter]

9 hours ago, OldCoot said:

You will have to ask Him one day why He decided to act like a Hebrew bridegroom and have the bride come out to meed Him.  

He indeed will rescue Israel, after they finally wake up from all the calamity they undergo during the tribulation period and petition for His return.  He made it quite clear in both OT and NT that they would have to petition for Him to return before He would.   So while indeed He has a zeal for Israel, He gave them the opportunity almost 2000 years ago. Now they have to make the first move.

But we are talking about two different entities here.  The Church is the bride of Yeshua, and also called the body of Messiah.   The Hebrew people are not, except those during the present age who join with Messiah and become members of the bride / body of Messiah.  Sound confusing.... bride/body... but when one remembers how the bride and groom are to be considered one flesh, the confusion goes away.

Shalom, OldCoot.

Well, the "two different entities" technique was necessary FOR A TIME to counter the former Replacement Theology encroachment in theology. HOWEVER, it was never meant to be that way at all! We ARE to be ONE people, but "the Children of Israel" TRUMPS, as you prefer, "the bride / body of Messiah." The "churches" or the "bride / body" doesn't take the place of the Children of Israel, but the Children of Israel ABSORB the "churches" after the "times of the Gentiles" is over and "the fulness of the Gentiles be come in".

Think about it this way: How could the "Wife of YHWH" be different than the "Bride of Christ" if the Christ, the Son of God, is GOD like God the Father is GOD? Aren't they ONE GOD?  They need to be one and the same as Yeshua` and YHWH are one and the same! Make sense?

[Montana Marv]

2 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

Avoiding the great tribulation is a myth that will take many Christians unawares,  like a thief in the night

So the GT has taken all those who have died before us in unawares.  The GT is Gods Judgments upon this disobedient sinful populated earth.  And the rest of mankind did not repent and continued to worship demons and idols made of.........,  (Rev 9:20). 5th Trumpet, and before.  Going through the GT, all people will end up worshiping demons and idols.  This is why Christ must rule them with a rod of iron during His 1000 year reign.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

 Sorry,  but the Aod has absolutely nothing to do with Paul's man of sin in 2 Thess 2.  Everything built upon the premise is baseless theology. 

Blessings

The PuP 

You are free to think as you think.  I think the man of sin will commit the AoD and soon after turn into the Beast of chapter 13. When the man of sin enters the temple, it will be an abomination: ONLY the high priest can enter the most holy place in the temple, and then only ONCE per year. It will not be the right time, and the man of sin will certainly not be the high priest. At that moment the temple will be desecrated and the daily sacrifices must cease - exactly what Daniel said would happen.  That is what will divide the week, according to Daniel. 

Call it baseless; I think it is truth.

Edited February 16, 2019 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

7 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

So the GT has taken all those who have died before us in unawares.  The GT is Gods Judgments upon this disobedient sinful populated earth.  And the rest of mankind did not repent and continued to worship demons and idols made of.........,  (Rev 9:20). 5th Trumpet, and before.  Going through the GT, all people will end up worshiping demons and idols.  This is why Christ must rule them with a rod of iron during His 1000 year reign.

In Christ

Montana Marv

I think not. I think all those who worship demons and idols will be dead by the 1000 year reign.

[iamlamad]

29 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, OldCoot.

Well, the "two different entities" technique was necessary FOR A TIME to counter the former Replacement Theology encroachment in theology. HOWEVER, it was never meant to be that way at all! We ARE to be ONE people, but "the Children of Israel" TRUMPS, as you prefer, "the bride / body of Messiah." The "churches" or the "bride / body" doesn't take the place of the Children of Israel, but the Children of Israel ABSORB the "churches" after the "times of the Gentiles" is over and "the fulness of the Gentiles be come in".

Think about it this way: How could the "Wife of YHWH" be different than the "Bride of Christ" if the Christ, the Son of God, is GOD like God the Father is GOD? Aren't they ONE GOD?  They need to be one and the same as Yeshua` and YHWH are one and the same! Make sense?

OF COURSE they are one God, but you have a body, you are a spirit, and you possess a soul. 

I disagree: the church will be raptured and get resurrection bodies. The Jews and Hebrews that survive the 70th week will still be in their natural bodies. You then are having natural people absorb resurrected people. I doubt it seriously.

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

The rapture of the church is when Jesus appears,  bringing the kingdom with him: 

*[[2Ti 4:1]] KJV* I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

And the kingdom can't come until Satan is cast out of heaven first: 

*[[Rev 12:10]] KJV* And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, NOW is COME salvation, and strength, and THE KINGDOM  OF our GOD, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

And we see the kingdom of the 10 horns/toes of Daniel 2 and Daniel 7:

*[[Dan 2:44]] KJV* And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

*[[Dan 7:13]] KJV* I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

*[[Dan 7:14]] KJV* And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Even further than this, the kingdom won't come until the little horn break the whole world in pieces:

Verse list:    
Dan 7:7-9 KJV    After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns. I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things. I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

Avoiding the great tribulation is a myth that will take many Christians unawares,  like a thief in the night. 

Blessings

The PuP 

You started out on the wrong foot! How in the world can you end up anywhere but on the wrong foot? 

" the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;" certainly fits His coming as shown in Rev. 19, NOT His coming as shown in 1 thes. 4.  People are always trying to force two more comings into one: it won't work. In one He does not touch down, but remains hidden in the clouds. In the other He touches down and is immediately in a battle. In one coming "every eye sees Him," while in the other, He remains hidden - ONLY those called up will see Him.

Shortly after He descends to the battle, the battle will be won, and His kingdom set up will soon follow.  He received the Kingdom at the 7th trumpet - just did not take possession: HERE in chapter 19 He takes physical possession.

the kingdom can't come until Satan is cast out of heaven first:  No, Jesus gets His Kingdom back while Satan is being kicked out of heaven. Both events begin at the 7th trumpet. 

NOW is COME salvation, and strength, and THE KINGDOM  OF our GOD, and the power of his Christ  Salvation for WHOM?

The church will already have their resurrection bodies and will be rejoicing in heaven when Jesus gets the kingdoms of the world back. Your reasoning is faulty. This is the relationship: God HAD to see the church safely in heaven (Rev 7) and the 144,000 seals before He would begin the trumpet judgments.

the kingdom won't come until the little horn break the whole world in pieces:  Jesus becomes the legal spiritual ruler of the earth as the kingdoms are transferred to Him. However, He has promised the Beast his 42 months so Jesus will not take possession until the 42 months are up. THEN Armageddon takes place.

Avoiding the great tribulation is a myth that will take many Christians unawares  No problem: if you wish to go through the days of great tribulation, GO FOR IT! Just be prepared to be overcome as the bible tells us. You can still get to heaven as one of the beheaded.  On the other hand, God has made a way of escape. Most of the church is going to take His way of escape via the pretrib rapture. 

Edited February 16, 2019 by iamlamad

[Retrobyter]

23 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

OF COURSE they are one God, but you have a body, you are a spirit, and you possess a soul. 

I disagree: the church will be raptured and get resurrection bodies. The Jews and Hebrews that survive the 70th week will still be in their natural bodies. You then are having natural people absorb resurrected people. I doubt it seriously.

Shabbat shalom, iamlamad.

Interesting take, but actually I AM a body that breathes and can blow like a wind (spirit), and that makes me an air-breathing creature (a soul). So, your analogy is lost.

Second, WE ARE BODIES and when we are resurrected WE WILL BE RESURRECTED BODIES, GLOWING BODIES THAT SHINE LIKE THE SUN IN THE PRESENCE OF OUR FATHER, BLASTING ("SPIRITUAL") BODIES THAT NO LONGER JUST BREATHE BUT BLAST LIKE THE WIND!

This is an important distinction. What? Do you think that "Christians" are the only ones who will be so resurrected?! Don't you know your Savior, yet?!

Have you heard of David, Solomon, and the Prophets? THEY'LL BE BACK!!!

Ezekiel 34:23-24 (KJV)

23 And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd. 24 And I the LORD will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the LORD have spoken it.

This is NOT figurative speech! It is QUITE LITERAL!

Edited February 16, 2019 by Retrobyter

[Retrobyter]

21 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

You started out on the wrong foot! How in the world can you end up anywhere but on the wrong foot? 

" the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;" certainly fits His coming as shown in Rev. 19, NOT His coming as shown in 1 thes. 4.  People are always trying to force two more comings into one: it won't work. In one He does not touch down, but remains hidden in the clouds. In the other He touches down and is immediately in a battle. In one coming "every eye sees Him," while in the other, He remains hidden - ONLY those called up will see Him.

Shortly after He descends to the battle, the battle will be won, and His kingdom set up will soon follow.  He received the Kingdom at the 7th trumpet - just did not take possession: HERE in chapter 19 He takes physical possession.

the kingdom can't come until Satan is cast out of heaven first:  No, Jesus gets His Kingdom back while Satan is being kicked out of heaven. Both events begin at the 7th trumpet. 

NOW is COME salvation, and strength, and THE KINGDOM  OF our GOD, and the power of his Christ  Salvation for WHOM?

The church will already have their resurrection bodies and will be rejoicing in heaven when Jesus gets the kingdoms of the world back. Your reasoning is faulty. This is the relationship: God HAD to see the church safely in heaven (Rev 7) and the 144,000 seals before He would begin the trumpet judgments.

the kingdom won't come until the little horn break the whole world in pieces:  Jesus becomes the legal spiritual ruler of the earth as the kingdoms are transferred to Him. However, He has promised the Beast his 42 months so Jesus will not take possession until the 42 months are up. THEN Armageddon takes place.

Avoiding the great tribulation is a myth that will take many Christians unawares  No problem: if you wish to go through the days of great tribulation, GO FOR IT! Just be prepared to be overcome as the bible tells us. You can still get to heaven as one of the beheaded.  On the other hand, God has made a way of escape. Most of the church is going to take His way of escape via the pretrib rapture. 

Shalom, both of you, iamlamad and Da Puppers.

When are you going to understand that "salvation" means "DELIVERANCE" and "RESCUE?" Guess who Yeshua` is coming back to deliver or to rescue? That's what the war for the Land of Israel that ENDS with Har-Megiddown (Greek: Armageddon) is all about!

[OldCoot]

5 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

Since we have started with Isa 66, let me show you something.   

Verse list:    
Isa 66:15-20 KJV    For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many. They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD. For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory. And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles. And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.

2Th 1:7-10 KJV    And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Mat 24:14 KJV    And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

We can see the parallel thoughts of Paul in 2 Thess 1 with those of Isa 66.  Paul speaks of it as being the time when the saints shall receive rest at the revealing of Christ with the holy angels,  aka the rapture.   But going back to Isa 66, we find that messengers will be sent out,  FROM. among those that survived the revealing of Christ.   But look at what it says of TO WHOM Z they will be sent.   "Those who have not seen of his glory,  nor have heard of his fame ".  To put it bluntly,  he says that there will be those who, after his revealing,  have neither heard nor seen of his fame or glory.   So,  now you see why I posted Matt 24:14.  The gospel of the kingdom will not have been preached in all the world until the end comes.   It's not talking about the gospel of grace,  but rather the gospel of the kingdom.   The kingdom of God.   The children of Israel/ kingdom will have been scattered into all of the world... The four winds... as a result of the GT.  (Isa 11:11-12).  This is when the gathering together of the elect shall begin.   This mirrors what is found in Matt 24:29-31 and the gathering together found in 2 Thess 2.

Blessings

The PuP 

Good catch seeing the passage in Isaiah 66 and 2 Thessalonians!   But I am convince that Paul's message to them was more in line with Isaiah 66:1-5.  The focus of Paul was that those who are causing suffering and tribulation on the Thessalonians will be judged, and the their faith and perseverance will be the justification of God's judgement.  Isaiah is illustrating a similar idea in the early part of Chapter 66.

Indeed, messengers will be sent out.  But who are they?  I would suggest that they are the 144,000 sealed Hebrews that went into the tribulation period.   Who is the focus of those who escape per Isaiah, but the Hebrews who escaped from Judea when the Abomination of Desolation gets set up in the Temple.  And Isaiah is delineating that these from those who escape will be sent out to teach the Gentiles.

Then all will be gathered from the nations as Isaiah states, but is mostly expounded on by Yeshua in Matthew 25, which is a exposition on Joel 3.

Indeed, Jacob (Israel) is God's Elect.  So is the Church.  There are Elect Angels also per Paul in 1 Timothy.  Election has nothing to do with justification.  The Messiah is God's Elect per Isaiah 42.  Jacob (Israel) is God's Elect in Isaiah 45.  But we also know that not all of Israel are justified and redeemed.  Paul made that clear in Romans.  Election does not mean Justification.    

And therein lies the issue.  Many folks read passages that speak of the Elect and mistakenly assume that they are the redeemed of the Body of Messiah.   They can be, but not always.  

And none of this has anything to do with the topic of when the removal of the righteous occurs, especially so in refuting a pre-trib removal of the Body of Messiah.

Edited February 16, 2019 by OldCoot
Spelling

[OldCoot]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

Think about it this way: How could the "Wife of YHWH" be different than the "Bride of Christ"

Well, in the Tanakh, Yahweh clearly says that Israel is His wife and that He would give her a bill of divorce and then reunite with her in the future.  The Prophets speak extensively on this.

Yeshua has a bride, the redeemed He is betrothed to.  There is never even the remote idea in all of scripture that Yeshua divorces the Church, His bride.  

And who is it that brought forth the Son on earth?  Israel.  Does the Bride (Church) bring forth the Messiah?  How ridiculous.  Just basic, simple thought, one can figure out that there are two entities here.  And one is the wife of Yahweh and the other is the Bride of Yeshua.  While they are the One God, they also are distinct entities within the Godhead.  Scripture is quite clear that the Father knows things the Son does not.