Why Pretrib Logic Fails

[OldCoot]

What many I think fail to take in regarding Revelation 4 is the phrase in V1... "after these things".  The preceding two chapters had been about the churches. So from Chapter 4 onward is events that occur after the Churches if we maintain some grammatical integrity. 

By itself, that may not make any case regarding if the redeemed are no longer on the earth, but when one combines it with the 24 elders and how that relates to 1 Chronicles 24 and 1 Peter 2:9, then the combinatory factor makes the idea that the church has been removed at the beginning of Chapter 4.  

And regarding Yeshua not being seen in Chapter 4, I think that V2 gives us what we need when, again, a person views this thru the lens of scripture, especially getting back to basics....

Revelation 4:2 Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne set in heaven, and One sat on the throne.

Deuteronomy 6:4  “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one!  

John 10:30 I and My Father are one.

Especially in light of....

Matthew 28:18  And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

One should probably avoid establishing a doctrine on what one thinks the text doesn't say.  Unlike the maxim in Law where silence implies consent, Just because the Lamb is not mentioned in Chapter 4 does not imply that He isn't there.   Actually, the Torah is quite clear that before anything can be established, it must be confirmed on the testimony of two witnesses.  Well, looking at Deuteronomy 6:4 and John 10:30, that fulfills the requirement of the Torah regarding two witnesses (OT and NT) confirming something.

And since everything has been given the Son by the Father, and the Lord is One, then there is not any real distinction regarding the Wrath of God.  Yeshua is opening the scroll seals. It is by His hand that climatic events occur on the earth.   So the wrath of the Lamb starts at seal one.  

The structure of Chapter 6 and those upon the earth stating "wrath has come" is not saying it has just come at that point.. seal 6.  The aorist tense of the Greek (past tense) in Revelation 6:17 suggests that they have finally come to the realization and are acknowledging what has already happened, that the wrath of the Lamb is what had been going on all along.  

So it is legit to hold that the wrath began at seal one.  And by extension, the church is already gathered and hidden from the wrath as expounded throughout the scripture.  

Edited February 24, 2019 by OldCoot

[Diaste]

8 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

The structure of Chapter 6 and those upon the earth stating "wrath has come" is not saying it has just come at that point.. seal 6.  The aorist tense of the Greek in Revelation 6:17 suggests that they are acknowledging what has already happened, that the wrath of the Lamb is what had been going on all along.  

Doubtful. Worse, not in keeping with the context.

"12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

The above are the cosmic disturbances that are the focus of 6th seal.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 

It is only because of Rev 6:12-14 that all the people described in Rev 6:15 react as described above.

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

And it is only because of Rev 6:12-14 the people described in Rev 6:15 can say this what they do in Rev 6:16. If wrath began earlier then why no reaction on the part of the people described in Rev 6:15?

Was it a AA wrath that began earlier and this is now major league wrath? 

This is an event changing the whole known universe: no sun, no moon, no stars, heaven rolled back to reveal the realm of the Lord, mountains fall and islands sink; and it's only after this the people fear. What do they fear? God and the Lamb and their wrath. When did they begin to fear wrath? At the cosmic signs, not before ergo, wrath begins in conjunction with the cosmic signs at the 6th seal and not before.

I hate word studies but the aorist verb is tense-aspect. The aorist does not specify a point in time, as does English verb tenses of past, present and future, but is undefined as to time. In this case the verb is imperative, an arrival from one place to another with the condition of being in time and space. I don't see anywhere in scripture where it's used as past tense, which would be linguistically impossible as the Greek verb form is undefined, in comparison to English verb tense, without context, and is the wrong form to denote any other moment but present and existing.

For example:

 

Strong's Number: 2064	Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin ercomai middle voice of a primary verb (used only in the present and imperfect tenses, the others being supplied by a kindred [middle voice] eleuthomai {el-yoo'-thom-ahee}, or [active] eltho {el'-tho}, which do not otherwise occur)

Definition

1. to come
   1. of persons
      1. to come from one place to another, and used both of persons arriving
      2. to appear, make one's appearance, come before the public
2. metaph.
   1. to come into being, arise, come forth, show itself, find place or influence
   2. be established, become known, to come (fall) into or unto
3. to go, to follow one

NAS Word Usage - Total: 635 arrival 1, arrived 1, brought 1, came 225, come 222, comes 64, coming 87, entered 2, expected 3, fall 2, falls 1, give 1, go 1, going 2, grown 1, lighting 1, next 1, turned 1, went 18

https://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/erchomai.html

And as it says, "used only in the present and imperfect tense" and the usage is never past. So no, wrath begins at the 6th seal, not before.

 

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

I know we have been over this very trying bit of rationalization. Let me raise the objections to the logical difficulties with this.

1) Absence of proof is not proof of absence. In other words just because his presence is not mentioned does not mean He is not present. I would say that Jesus was present as He said many times He and the Father are One, and if you have seen me you have seen the Father. Since the Father is there in the throne room, Jesus was as well. 

2) The text does not provide clues to Jesus location prior to Rev 5:6

3) "No man" was found worthy. Jesus was never a 'man'. Jesus was the Word made flesh. A god-man. Fully God and fully flesh at the same time. Equating the Creator to man to fulfill the bad idea of lumping Jesus in with created flesh is near to denying the deity of Jesus.

4) Timing. The Rev was given to John in 95 AD. So which is it? Is it 33 AD or 95 AD? You cannot have both.

5) Rev 1. 

12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; 13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks [one] like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.14 His head and [his] hairs [were] white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes [were] as a flame of fire; 15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. 16 And he had in his right hand seven stars:and out of his mouth went a sharp two edged sword: and his countenance [was] as the sun shineth in his strength.

17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear {not; I am the first and the last: 18 I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. 

This is Jesus, clearly glorified, among the candlesticks, which I have no doubt are in the throne room.

6) Rev 3:21.

"To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. "

Already seated on the throne before the supposed absence you propose, and in 95 AD, well after your take on the 33 AD timing.

Rev 4:11 and John 1:3) 

"Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created." - Rev 4

"All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." -  John 1

Pretty clear this is Jesus they are worshiping in Rev 4

 

What search? This is simply speaking to the proof man is not worthy and Jesus is. Rev 1 contradicts this idea of yours. "I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore," Already resurrected and ascended in the beginning of Rev.

Incorrect. This is 95 AD when John received this of Jesus. Pentecost occurred 60+ years prior to this.

It's really sad when stuff like this happens. Jesus was worthy from the foundation of the world. To say he was only worthy after a certain point in time denies the deity of Jesus; refusing to understand Jesus created all things and He is, and was, and always will be, God Almighty.

Sixty years before the Rev was given? Contradicting your own arguments again? How could he be there in 33 AD and then not there in 95 AD? 

If a color were enough to come to a logical conclusion then sure, but it's not. What you are saying is, "White, therefore the Gospel."  It's tantamount to saying, "Belief, therefore truth." 

Of course you miss the idea of a person on the horse. An individual rides the white horse, it an individual that is armed, a conqueror, not the gospel. And it's not white that is the sole bit of evidence, it's a white horse, the most emphatic symbol of the conqueror, used by the leader of conquering armies for...well...ever. Jesus is seated on a white horse in Rev 19. You might as well say Jesus is the rider of the white horse in Rev 6, it would make as much sense.

As important as the second person of the trinity is, OF COURSE if He were there, John would have seen Him. Stephen SAW Him. 

Since the Father is there in the throne room, Jesus was as well.  You have to ask yourself: WAS Jesus there (in person) while He was on the earth? We could say "in a way" He was there, as John 3:13 says, "who IS in heaven."  If my spirit and soul is in heaven and my body in a grave, then I am in heaven....right?  We must understand, God is a triune God just as we are triune humans created in His image and after His likeness.  Only God can separate Himself and still remain "alive." If our spirit leaves our body, our heart stops beating.  For God, it was the BODY part of God that came to earth - only His body was a spiritual body - that took on human flesh.  

When He took on human flesh, it was FOREVER! Forever more God the Son will have a human body. That was one of the costs of God to save us.  After He arose and ascended, He STILL had His human body. Stephen SAW it: 

Acts 7:⁵⁵ But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God,

If you wish to imagine Jesus was there but invisible, that is up to you. But we can establish this with two other witnesses.  Yes, even a third, because Jesus Spoke to me and asked me why John did not see Him there, since there were a dozen verses telling us that is where He ascended to be: at the right hand of the Father.  I am out of time: must head for church.

[iamlamad]

4 hours ago, OldCoot said:

What many I think fail to take in regarding Revelation 4 is the phrase in V1... "after these things".  The preceding two chapters had been about the churches. So from Chapter 4 onward is events that occur after the Churches if we maintain some grammatical integrity. 

By itself, that may not make any case regarding if the redeemed are no longer on the earth, but when one combines it with the 24 elders and how that relates to 1 Chronicles 24 and 1 Peter 2:9, then the combinatory factor makes the idea that the church has been removed at the beginning of Chapter 4.  

And regarding Yeshua not being seen in Chapter 4, I think that V2 gives us what we need when, again, a person views this thru the lens of scripture, especially getting back to basics....

Revelation 4:2 Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne set in heaven, and One sat on the throne.

Deuteronomy 6:4  “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one!  

John 10:30 I and My Father are one.

Especially in light of....

Matthew 28:18  And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

One should probably avoid establishing a doctrine on what one thinks the text doesn't say.  Unlike the maxim in Law where silence implies consent, Just because the Lamb is not mentioned in Chapter 4 does not imply that He isn't there.   Actually, the Torah is quite clear that before anything can be established, it must be confirmed on the testimony of two witnesses.  Well, looking at Deuteronomy 6:4 and John 10:30, that fulfills the requirement of the Torah regarding two witnesses (OT and NT) confirming something.

And since everything has been given the Son by the Father, and the Lord is One, then there is not any real distinction regarding the Wrath of God.  Yeshua is opening the scroll seals. It is by His hand that climatic events occur on the earth.   So the wrath of the Lamb starts at seal one.  

The structure of Chapter 6 and those upon the earth stating "wrath has come" is not saying it has just come at that point.. seal 6.  The aorist tense of the Greek (past tense) in Revelation 6:17 suggests that they have finally come to the realization and are acknowledging what has already happened, that the wrath of the Lamb is what had been going on all along.  

So it is legit to hold that the wrath began at seal one.  And by extension, the church is already gathered and hidden from the wrath as expounded throughout the scripture.  

Anyone can make any verse say almost anything if they are willing to pull verses out of context.  

There is no one, but THREE witnesses in chapter 4 that establish that Jesus is NOT THERE. Again, 3 witnesses. What we all should want is to know what the Holy Spirit's INTENT was when He had John pen these verses.  I know somewhat of His intent Because Jesus taught me.

After I discovered that the entire 70th week is marked by 7’s, leaving the first 6 seals OUT of the 70th week, I went back to chapters 4 & 5. God showed John a vision of the throne room. He saw the throne of God and someone on the throne, he saw the four beasts with many eyes, he saw the 24 elders around the throne, and saw the Holy Spirit as seven lamps of fire or the Seven Spirits of God there in the throne room.

I asked the Father to show me in these chapters proof that the first seals were NOT in the 70th week. I studied these chapters for a few weeks, and finally got stuck on John weeping much. (It was the Holy Spirit, not me.) I could not seem to get away from that. I asked God why we needed to know that John wept, and why much?

Finally He spoke and said only

“It shows timing.”

I heard His voice again, but this time recognized it was in my spirit. I studied these chapters another couple of weeks, and could not find “timing” anywhere, so was frequently bugging God. Finally He spoke again and said,

“it also show the movement of time.”

I studied diligently, but I could not find any “movement of time” anywhere! Finally God had mercy on me and spoke again:

“I will ask you three questions. Until you can answer them correctly you will never understand this part of John’s vision.”

Then He asked me three questions, and told me that until I could answer these three questions correctly I would never understand His intentions on this part of John’s vision or visions.

Three Questions on Revelation chapters 4 and 5

This won’t be exactly word for word, for it has been a few years now, but it will be very close.

1. “I ascended back into heaven years before John saw this vision. There are many verses showing that I went to be at the right hand of the Father. The first question then, why did John not immediately see Me at the right hand of the Father in chapter four?”

As before, when He spoke, I was “in the spirit” and could not answer by thinking an answer and speaking, but my spirit man answered, “I cannot answer that question.” Again He spoke.

2. “John watched a search to find one worthy to break the seals, a search that end in failure, and that is the very reason John wept much: no man was found worthy. However, if you read ahead, you find that I was found worthy to break the seals. Why then was I not found in that first search?”

 Again my spirit man answered, “Lord, I cannot answer that.” Then He asked me the third question:

3. “If you notice in chapter 4, the Holy Spirit was still in the throne room. I told the disciples that as soon as I ascended, I would send Him down. Why was the Holy Spirit still in the throne room in chapter 4?”

Again my spirit man said that I could not answer His question. He did not say more at that time. I studied diligently on that vision of the throne room, trying to answer His questions. I could not see timing. I could not see the movement of time. I could not figure out why Jesus was not at the right hand of the Father. I could not figure out why “no man was found.” I could not figure out why the Holy Spirit was still there. I spent weeks looking, and bugging God for help.

Finally after two or three weeks of study, suddenly I heard His voice again! He said,

“go and study chapter 12.”

I did not want to do this! I was in an intense study of chapters 4 & 5, and the last thing I wanted to do was to go to another chapter. However, I was obedient, and flipped the pages to chapter 12. When I got my bible opened to chapter 12, He spoke again.

“Chapter 12 was Me introducing John to the Dragon, and in particular what the Dragon would be doing in the last half of the week. Count how many times the Dragon is mentioned, including pronouns.”

So I counted, 32 times. I replied, “I see that this chapter is about the dragon. I counted 32 times.” I don’t know if I was “in the spirit” at this time.

He spoke again.

“I also chose to show John how the dragon attempted to kill me as a child. Those first five verses were a ‘history lesson’ for John.”

I let that sink in, and suddenly He said,

“now you can go back to chapters 4 & 5.”

I was amazed. I flipped back to the vision of the throne room, and in just a few minutes had the answer to all three questions! The key I needed was “history lesson.” I suddenly realized that John was looking into the throne room of the past, at a time just before Jesus rose from the dead.

Most people never notice that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, was not seen at the right hand of the Father, where many verses say that is where He went to be. In fact, Stephen SAW Him there. Jesus was not seen at the right hand of the father, for at that time He was still on the earth or under the earth. From eternities past to eternities future, there has only been one small period of time where Jesus was NOT at the right hand of the Father, and that was the 32 years or so while He was on earth.

“No man was found” tells us that Jesus had not yet risen from the dead to be found worthy. Finally, the Holy Spirit was still in the throne room because Jesus had not yet ascended to send Him down.

Then, as we read into chapter 5, we see that another search was begun as soon as the first search John watched had ended in failure.

John wept much because no man was found in this first search John had watched. Make no mistake here, a search was made for one worthy to break the seals and John watched that first search, first in heaven, then on earth and then under the earth. That first search ended in failure, and John wrote, “no man was found.” Take note that if no one was “found” then someone was trying to “find” one worthy to loose the seals and open the book – so we know a search was made.

We don’t know how long John wept, but it could have been hours or days. Reading on, we see that finally someone came up to John and told him he could stop weeping, for someone had been found worthy: “the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.”

Here we see the passing of time. The first search ended in failure, and John wept much, but it seems another search was started as soon as the first search ended. This hints that perhaps this search for one worthy to take this book and loose the seals had been ongoing since the days of Adam, another search starting the moment the previous one ends in failure.

Someone came up to John and told him to stop weeping, for someone had been found worthy. Then John turned and saw a Lamb, “having been slain.” That Lamb was simply not there the moment before! John got to see in vision form, the moment Jesus ascended, after telling Mary not to hold onto Him for He had not yet ascended. Once Mary left Him, He ascended and entered the throne room, and John got to see this very moment in time, in the vision! Then we read that He came with the Holy Spirit, who was immediately sent down to the earth.

Revelation 5:⁶ And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

This vision of the throne room sets the context for the seals. When did Jesus ascend? Somewhere around 32 CE. The moment Jesus entered the throne room the first thing He did was get the scroll from the right hand of the Father and begin opening the seals.

⁷ And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

No one can find 2000 years between any of these verses, because it is not there. The intent of the Author was to show that the first seals were broken about 32 CE.

Now, all the readers have a choice: they can study to show themselves approved, and discover these revelations do indeed agree with the written word - of they can hold to their preconceived ideas and declare this could not have been Jesus, the head of the church, but some other "voice." It is up to you, the reader.

Next, there is no scriptural proof that ANY of the 24 elders are from the New Covenant. They could be all elders from the book of Genesis! 

Next, finding a rapture in Rev. 4:1 is very very sloppy exegesis. This kind of exegesis by pretrib has opened the door to many other end times theories that are not true. A 5th grader or beginning reader would tell us that verses is about JOHN being called up to heaven for a PURPOSE: so we can have the book of Revelation to read. It has nothing to do with the rapture of the church. 

Indeed, God is ONE. But the fact still remains, ONE THIRD of the Godhead left heaven and came to earth - to be born of Man. We have a dozen verses telling us that Jesus, as the risen Lord, with a resurrected human body, ascended into heaven to sit at the right hand of the Father. Stephen SAW Him there. 

As far as establishing a doctrine on what is NOT said:  In this case, Jesus disagrees with you:   “I ascended back into heaven years before John saw this vision. There are many verses showing that I went to be at the right hand of the Father. The first question then, why did John not immediately see Me at the right hand of the Father in chapter four?”

As for two or three witnesses, God has given us THREE. See the three questions above. 

Next, what you are implying is that God is angry at His children and making them martyrs. No, sorry, but God is not angry with the church. There is no wrath even remotely implied in any of the first 5 seals. That is myth. 

It is by His hand that climatic events occur on the earth.   So the wrath of the Lamb starts at seal one.    NON sequitur. 

The structure of Chapter 6 and those upon the earth stating "wrath has come" is not saying it has just come at that point.. seal 6.  Sorry, but this is just plain a case of preconceptions not allowing a good study of the passage. CAse in point: they had just seen the SIGNS from Joel 2 telling them that the signs for the DAY had come.  They had just experienced the earthquake as written in Isaiah 2 about the Day of the Lord, so they KNEW this was the start of the Day.  What more proof do we need? We have two witnesses that THE DAY had started or perhaps was just about to start. (Some push off the start of the Day to the 7th seal.) 

In Revelation, most of John's verbs are Aorist tense verbs that don't tell us any timing. But in Revelation we establish timing by John's MENTION of an event. Example: the arrival of the two witnesses just before the midpoint of the week.  We establish the timing of the DAY by the verse itself and the context. 

So it is legit to hold that the wrath began at seal one.  NOT. It is very poor exegesis.

[OldCoot]

I can appreciate when one feels led by the spirit regarding any of these things.  But Paul made it quite clear to test the spirits, and to do that requires confirmation by two or more witnesses in scripture.  That is a Torah requirement.   I purposefully followed that requirement and gave verses that substantiate my position from both OT and NT as required by the Torah and as commended by the HS to the Bereans. 

So, I stil stand by my assertions.  I am sure we will all have egg on our face when we confront the Lord directly and these things are explained.  But until then, following the guidance of scripture on how to interpret scripture usually is the best choice.

43 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

It is by His hand that climatic events occur on the earth.   So the wrath of the Lamb starts at seal one.    NON sequitur. 

You have every right to feel it is a non sequitur, but all power and authority was given to Yeshua by the Father, as He claimed in Matthew 28.  And since the Father and the Son are One, there is no substantive basis for separating the two.  The Wrath of God is the Wrath of the Lamb.  And since it the entire events are started by the hand of Yeshua at the first seal, there is nothing to substantiate a delineation. Without strong scriptural basis to prove otherwise, the first seal starts the wrath of the Lamb.  

You have every right to disagree, but to state it is not sound exegesis is a little bit dishonest.  I followed basic hermeneutic principles and even adhered to the Torah requirement of no matter can be established outside the testimony of two witnesses. In our case.... OT and NT combined.

[iamlamad]

5 hours ago, OldCoot said:

I can appreciate when one feels led by the spirit regarding any of these things.  But Paul made it quite clear to test the spirits, and to do that requires confirmation by two or more witnesses in scripture.  That is a Torah requirement.   I purposefully followed that requirement and gave verses that substantiate my position from both OT and NT as required by the Torah and as commended by the HS to the Bereans. 

So, I stil stand by my assertions.  I am sure we will all have egg on our face when we confront the Lord directly and these things are explained.  But until then, following the guidance of scripture on how to interpret scripture usually is the best choice.

You have every right to feel it is a non sequitur, but all power and authority was given to Yeshua by the Father, as He claimed in Matthew 28.  And since the Father and the Son are One, there is no substantive basis for separating the two.  The Wrath of God is the Wrath of the Lamb.  And since it the entire events are started by the hand of Yeshua at the first seal, there is nothing to substantiate a delineation. Without strong scriptural basis to prove otherwise, the first seal starts the wrath of the Lamb.  

You have every right to disagree, but to state it is not sound exegesis is a little bit dishonest.  I followed basic hermeneutic principles and even adhered to the Torah requirement of no matter can be established outside the testimony of two witnesses. In our case.... OT and NT combined.

No, your preconceptions caused you to ignore Jesus' own teachings in chapters 4 & 5.  Your own preconceptions cause you to read into Rev. 4:1 what is not there. I can assure you, all those who believe any other than pretrib know that is about John being caught up. 

I SHOWED you three witnesses - no, four counting Jesus own words - yet you disregard all four.

Can you come up with a better answer to Jesus' three questions? Trust me, we are all ears. If there is a better explanation, we all want to see it.  

Acts 8:

³ And as he journeyed he came near Damascus, and suddenly there shone round about him a light from heaven.

⁴ And he fell to the earth and heard a voice saying unto him, “Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou Me?”

⁵ And he said, “Who art Thou, Lord?” And the Lord said, “I am Jesus whom thou persecutest; it is hard for thee to kick against the goads.”

⁶ And he, trembling and astonished, said, “Lord, what wilt Thou have me to do?” And the Lord said unto him, “Arise and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.”

Did Paul "try" this spirit? No. he KNEW it was God. In Acts chapter 2, when the Holy Spirit came, did ANYONE "try the spirit?"  No, they all KNEW it was God. 

Acts 8:29

Then the Spirit said unto Philip, “Go near and join thyself to this chariot.”

 

Did Philip "try" the Spirit? No, he KNEW it was God. 

 

Acts 10:19

While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, “Behold, three men seek thee.

 

Did Peter "try" this spirit? No, he KNEW it was God.

 

Acts 11:28

And one of them named Agabus stood up, and signified by the Spirit that there would be a great dearth throughout all the world, which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar.

 

Did anyone "try" this spirit that apparently contacted Agabus?

 

Acts 16:7

After they had come to Mysia, they attempted to go into Bithynia, but the Spirit suffered permit not.

 

Did Paul "try" this spirit? No, he recognized it as the Holy Spirit.

 

Acts 16:9

And a vision appeared to Paul in the night: there stood a man of Macedonia beseeching him, saying, “Come overinto Macedonia and help us.”

 

Did Paul "try" this vision to someone acertain it was from God?  It seems many people do not understand how to "try" something to see if it is of God. If a preachers is preaching great things, but will not ever speak of Jesus Christ crucified, or that Jesus came from heaven to be born of a virgin, or other things concerning Jesus having come in the flesh of a human, we can know they are not to be trusted. THAT, my friends, is what the scripture is about. For example, no good Muslim will EVER confess that Jesus came from heaven as God to take on human flesh.  Mormons may confess Jesus came - but as a man from another planet!

 

I say again, if you can find scriptural proof that the questions Jesus asked are not scriptural questions, then show us scripture to prove it. For example: are these things true or not?

1. It is an absolute fact that John did not see Jesus standing or seated at the right hand of the Father.

2. It is an absolute fact that in that first search John watched for one worthy, that search ended in failure and John wrote, "no man was found," BECAUSE it ended in failure to find anyone.

3. It is an absolute fact that the Holy Spirit, as the 7 spirits of God, was there in the throne room in chapter 4.

4. It is an absolute fact that in chapter 5, suddenly things changed and Jesus WAS found worth.

5. It is an absolute fact that John then SAW Jesus appear as a lamb having been slain. Now, did He REALLY appear as a lamb to John, or did John just write it as the Holy Spirit wanted it written? 

6. It is a fact, John wrote that as Jesus appeared in the throne room, the Holy Spirit was sent down.

If you can find scripture that proves these things untrue, then show us. Oh, if you can find 2000 years hidden somewhere in chapter 5, I would like to see that too.  Since you imagine Rev. 4:1 as the rapture, where is the 2000 years in chapter 2 or 3? Those churches existed in John's time - so WHERE Did John switch from HIS time to OUR time?

By the way, there are plenty of Old Testament scriptures that Jesus came in the flesh. There are more that He would be crucified and die. I don't think anyone will argue about that.  You want to place Jesus in the throne room as invisible, since John did not mention it, and I wish to place Jesus still on earth because John did not see Him. The fact is, "no man was found" is the second proof text that Jesus was not in the throne room, and had not yet risen from the dead. The Holy Spirit still there is the third proof text that Jesus had not yet risen. How many more witnesses do you need?

[iamlamad]

14 hours ago, Diaste said:

I know we have been over this very trying bit of rationalization. Let me raise the objections to the logical difficulties with this.

1) Absence of proof is not proof of absence. In other words just because his presence is not mentioned does not mean He is not present. I would say that Jesus was present as He said many times He and the Father are One, and if you have seen me you have seen the Father. Since the Father is there in the throne room, Jesus was as well. 

2) The text does not provide clues to Jesus location prior to Rev 5:6

3) "No man" was found worthy. Jesus was never a 'man'. Jesus was the Word made flesh. A god-man. Fully God and fully flesh at the same time. Equating the Creator to man to fulfill the bad idea of lumping Jesus in with created flesh is near to denying the deity of Jesus.

4) Timing. The Rev was given to John in 95 AD. So which is it? Is it 33 AD or 95 AD? You cannot have both.

5) Rev 1. 

12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; 13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks [one] like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.14 His head and [his] hairs [were] white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes [were] as a flame of fire; 15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. 16 And he had in his right hand seven stars:and out of his mouth went a sharp two edged sword: and his countenance [was] as the sun shineth in his strength.

17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear {not; I am the first and the last: 18 I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. 

This is Jesus, clearly glorified, among the candlesticks, which I have no doubt are in the throne room.

6) Rev 3:21.

"To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. "

Already seated on the throne before the supposed absence you propose, and in 95 AD, well after your take on the 33 AD timing.

Rev 4:11 and John 1:3) 

"Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created." - Rev 4

"All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." -  John 1

Pretty clear this is Jesus they are worshiping in Rev 4

 

What search? This is simply speaking to the proof man is not worthy and Jesus is. Rev 1 contradicts this idea of yours. "I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore," Already resurrected and ascended in the beginning of Rev.

Incorrect. This is 95 AD when John received this of Jesus. Pentecost occurred 60+ years prior to this.

It's really sad when stuff like this happens. Jesus was worthy from the foundation of the world. To say he was only worthy after a certain point in time denies the deity of Jesus; refusing to understand Jesus created all things and He is, and was, and always will be, God Almighty.

Sthe Reixty years before v was given? Contradicting your own arguments again? How could he be there in 33 AD and then not there in 95 AD? 

If a color were enough to come to a logical conclusion then sure, but it's not. What you are saying is, "White, therefore the Gospel."  It's tantamount to saying, "Belief, therefore truth." 

Of course you miss the idea of a person on the horse. An individual rides the white horse, it an individual that is armed, a conqueror, not the gospel. And it's not white that is the sole bit of evidence, it's a white horse, the most emphatic symbol of the conqueror, used by the leader of conquering armies for...well...ever. Jesus is seated on a white horse in Rev 19. You might as well say Jesus is the rider of the white horse in Rev 6, it would make as much sense.

It seems you just don't know the difference between reality and a vision. John was seeing a VISION. A vision can be of the past, present, or future, or all three mixed up. In this case it was a vision of the past. 

Are you denying that Jesus was a man? How many times does the scriptures have "The Son of man?" The Biblegateway shows 85 times! John wrote "no man was found" to emphasize that it had to be a man; no angel could ever be found worthy. As it turned out, it was a God-man: God in human flesh. John did not tell us, but my guess is, the requirement was it had to be the redeemer of mankind: a man who could rise from the dead and escape death - exactly what Jesus did.  Surely you know that the people THOUGHT He was a man:

Matthew 9:

² And behold, they brought to Him a man sick with the palsy, lying on a bed. And Jesus, seeing their faith, said unto the one sick with the palsy, “Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.”

³ And behold, certain of the scribes said within themselves, “This man blasphemeth.”

What is a good definition of a "man?" The dictionary says an adult human being.  I would say a man is a spirit being living in a human body and possessing a soul (mind, will, emotions). Did Jesus fit this definition? Of course He did. The Only difference was, the spirit giving life to His body was GOD Himself (The second person of the Godhead.)

Just so you know, a horse in prophetic scripture speaks of war or conflict. A white horse would then be righteous conflict. A bow (toxin - so definitely a bow made to shoot arrows) without arrows may speak of the spiritual weapons Paul wrote of, that are strong to overthrow strongholds - but not physical weapons. You KNOW the church had to overcome powers and principalities to advance the gospel. In other words, the Holy Spirit gave John a good definition of the early church taking the gospel to the nations. By the way, Jesus is opening the seals, so NOT the rider on the white horse in the first seal. No, the GOSPEL makes far more sense: the early church was the ONLY righteous entity on earth then. (It still is.)

How could he be there in 33 AD and then not there in 95 AD?  It was a VISION. John was seeing a VISION. It was a vision of the Past. I WAS 95 AD according to church tradition - that was when John saw the vision; but the vision was of a time before Christ rose from the dead. This is not that difficult. 

Jesus was worthy from the foundation of the world. To say he was only worthy after a certain point in time denies the deity of Jesus   You really are lost in preconceptions. It was probably written on the outside of the book: only a MAN could ever be found worthy, but it had to be a man who rose from the dead to defeat death and the grave. This was undoubtedly an agreement arranged in the courts of heaven between God and Satan. We can be sure Satan thought no man EVER would or could escape out of hell - but Jesus did! Hallelujah!  Don't you see, God before He became man could NEVER qualify: it had to be a MAN - a human being. Satan never in a trillion years would have thought that God would BECOME a man! We can all thank God forever that Jesus was willing to suffer and die for us. We can all shout hallelujah that He rose from the dead to become worthy to take the book and open the seals. 

If no man was found, then Satan would remain as the god of this world. 

This is Jesus, clearly glorified, among the candlesticks, which I have no doubt are in the throne room.  You are having difficulty telling the difference between 95 AD reality and a vision of the past. 

The Rev was given to John in 95 AD. So which is it? Is it 33 AD or 95 AD? You cannot have both.  Of course we can have both: in reality John saw a VISION of the past - but saw this vision in 95 AD. It was the VISION that was of the past, and then turned into a vision of the future (some don't believe the 70th week is future.)

Since the Father is there in the throne room, Jesus was as well.  WRONG! Jesus was NOT There after Mary conceived.  

Hebrews 10:5

Therefore when He cometh into the world, He saith, “Sacrifice and offering Thou wouldest not have, but a body hast Thou prepared for Me.

 

The text does not provide clues to Jesus location prior to Rev 5:6   Wrong again!  It is just that you cannot understand the text.   When John did not see Jesus at the right hand of the Father, we know He was on earth. When "no man was found" we know Jesus had not yet risen.   

 

You have shown you have very little or no understanding of this passage in Revelation.  However, you are showing effort.    

[iamlamad]

15 hours ago, Diaste said:

If something is factually incorrect saying over and over does not make it correct. Any scripture to back it up?

Well, you miss the point of great tribulation. It's not for believers in Jesus only. It comes upon the whole world. John can say the persecutions he and our brethren suffered is tribulation in isolated pockets where believers either live or preach the gospel; it was that way then and it's that way now. Great tribulation is coming to test the whole world and this is what makes it 'great'; scope, duration and intensity. The scope will be the entire world and every person in it, it will last till it "should be shortened" or "there should no flesh be saved: The scope alone differentiates this as "megas" tribulation covering the whole earth; compared to tribulation in isolation and proximity to groups of the elect. 

Yeah, that makes sense, God and Satan are doing a time share, partnering, as it were.

In every example in scripture that I know of, Noah and Lot (There are others I'm sure), God's wrath did not fall on the target of that wrath till the faithful were taken out of the path of that wrath. To claim that believers are on earth during God's wrath is a position that is in direct contradiction to written scripture, the examples in scripture, and the tenets of the Pretrib doctrine (and every doctrine on the return of Jesus and the gathering of the elect). 

If pretrib hangs their hopes on the early rapture to save their hides from the wrath of God, why is it pretrib also states believers will endure the wrath of God? Like you contend in your statement above?

I feel you need to be more precise in your statements. You say tribulation, the persecution of the saints, is the entire church age, nearly 2000 years. Obviously then the saints are persecuted before the 6th seal, and have been. But you're mixing terms and definitions and interpretations in any case. Matt 24 lays it out in the only timeline available to us from start to finish, a timeline which must occur in the lives of a single generation,

"So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know  that it is near, [even] at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." - Matt 24

"So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, [even] at the doors. Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done." - Mark 13

"So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled." - Luke 21

"All these things" are the events and circumstances in the above mentioned Gospels: Matt 24:5-30, Mark 13:3-26, Luke 21:7-26, e.g., false Christs, the A of D, megas tribulation, the sign of Jesus coming.

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass;" Not John's anything. Jesus owns this and our Father gave it to him. John had zero ownership here.

 

Scripture has done that. You are free to believe as you wish.

"God begins His wrath before the 70th week begins, and continues His wrath all through the week. Each trumpet judgment and each vial comes with His wrath. But by the time of the vials, He is really angry at a world that will not repent.  The TRUTH then is that when Satan's anger has caused the murder of the saints to reach its peak,"

But I think saying God's wrath is upon the earth while saints are on the earth tell us all we need to know about your interpretation of prophecy.

Dispensationalism is such a lame doctrine. Not one shred of proof exists for this claim. I guess if one starts believing in make believe anything is possible.

You can follow John if you wish, I'll stick with following the Lord.  I always appreciate questions of the loaded variety. They let me know the inquisitor is seeking an agenda and not the truth.

"12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" -Rev 6

I wish you luck in that endeavor. When it doesn't happen the way you think I'll be here for you, look me up.

On the contrary, I will see you up there when you arrive after suffering death at the hands of the Beast. I hope that works out for you!

Dispensationalism is such a lame doctrine. Not one shred of proof exists for this claim. I guess if one starts believing in make believe anything is possible.  You can deny the truth all you want: your denying will not change anything except your perceptions.  Most of the church KNOWs God has had different times when He worked with men differently. Just one verse should tell you this: "The law was until John." It was the dispensation of LAW, then it was the dispensation of God with us. Then it changed to the dispensation of the church. 

I do wish you could come up with SOMETHING that is scriptural!  

Revelation 13:7

And it was given unto him to make war with the saints and to overcome them; and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

 

WHEN will this be? Where in Revelation? We could say AFTER chapter 13, where it is written. Where is God's wrath? It starts before chapter 13 and continues until long AFTER chapter 13. What does this mean? It means when God's vials are poured out, the saints must suffer too. For example, if one of the saints is on a ship on the sea when it turns to blood, that saint will die. When God turns out the lights, and darkness falls upon the earth, Saints and heathens alike will be in the dark. This is not a difficult concept! I understand preconceptions can blind people to the truth of scripture.

[OldCoot]

Ok, let's look at the text and compare with scripture.

In Revelation 4, John describes the scene.  One particular aspect is stated.....

Revelation 4:9-11  Whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, who lives forever and ever, 10 the twenty-four elders fall down before Him who sits on the throne and worship Him who lives forever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying:
11 “You are worthy, O Lord,
To receive glory and honor and power;
For You created all things,
And by Your will they exist and were created.

Now we compare with other scripture.....

John 1:1-3 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 

Colossians 1:15-18  He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

Without debate, the personage pictured in Revelation 4 is the same Yeshua that is described earlier in the Book of John, and by Paul in his letter to the Colossians.  It is sound exegesis to conclude that Yeshua, the Lamb, is the one who is on the throne in Revelation 4.  To suggest that Yeshua is not present and only in Chapter 5 shows up is very poor hermeneutics.  

We, in our finite state, are trying impose that finality on a Triune God of vast dimensionality. It is true, that in Chapter 5, we see the Lamb take the scroll from the Father, but that in no way suggests that the Lamb was not on the throne in Chapter 4.  And regardless of how we may perceive what John is describing, he gave us enough to show that the one Triune God is on the throne.  Including the Lamb, Yeshua.  Keep in mind, Yeshua is seated at the right hand of the Father....

Ephesians 1:20 which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places,

Hebrews 8:1-2 Now this is the main point of the things we are saying: We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a Minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected, and not man.

And in dozens of places in the Tanakh, it is the right hand of Yahweh that is redemption and thru which His judgement will be revealed.

The idea that the second person of that Triune God is the one who initiates the calamities that come upon the earth is bore out in Psalms 2 as in other passages...

Psalms 2:10-12 Now therefore, be wise, O kings;
Be instructed, you judges of the earth.
11 Serve the Lord with fear,
And rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son, lest He be angry,
And you perish in the way,
When His wrath is kindled but a little.
Blessed are all those who put their trust in Him.

And when does this occur?.....

Psalms 27:5 For in the time of trouble
He shall hide me in His pavilion;
In the secret place of His tabernacle
He shall hide me;
He shall set me high upon a rock.

Jeremiah 30:6-7  Ask now, and see,
Whether a man is ever in labor with child?
So why do I see every man with his hands on his loins
Like a woman in labor,    (See Revelation 12)
And all faces turned pale?
7 Alas! For that day is great,
So that none is like it;
And it is the time of Jacob's trouble,
But he shall be saved out of it.

[OldCoot]

23 hours ago, iamlamad said:

WHEN will this be? Where in Revelation? We could say AFTER chapter 13, where it is written.

You are making the assumption that Revelation is liner and chronological in order.  There are many parenthetical pauses in Revelation the add detail.  And that the saints are prevailed over?  Of course!  Daniel said that also.  But that does  not mean they are in the same category as saints prior to the tribulation period starting.  Just like the saints from Shavuot (Pentecost) onward to the present are not the same saints as in the Tanakh.  Sure, all are redeemed the same manner, thru Yeshua, but that no way implies that they are in the same group.  

If these saints being overcome were intended by Yeshua to mean the church as we know it now, then why isn't the church ever mentioned after Chapter 3 on till the closing comments in Chapter 22?   Chapter 4 starts out stating....

Revelation 4:1 After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven.

What things?  The churches!

And notice the last part of the that verse... "a door standing open".  That is allusion to Isaiah 26....

Isaiah 26:2  Open the gates, That the righteous nation which keeps the truth may enter in.

And what is the context of that passage in Isaiah about?....

Isaiah 26:9 With my soul I have desired You in the night,
Yes, by my spirit within me I will seek You early;
For when Your judgments are in the earth,
The inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

And here is that tie to Revelation 12 in the same chapter of Isaiah....

Isaiah 26:17 As a woman with child
Is in pain and cries out in her pangs,
When she draws near the time of her delivery,
So have we been in Your sight, O Lord.

And what is all this leading to?   The resurrection and removal of the righteous!!! 

Isaiah 26:19-21  Your dead shall live;
Together with my dead body they shall arise.
Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust;
For your dew is like the dew of herbs,
And the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 Come, my people, enter your chambers,   
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.
21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
The earth will also disclose her blood,
And will no more cover her slain.

And compare that passage with what Yeshua stated.......

John 14:1-4  “Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And where I go you know, and the way you know.”