There are two different horse Riders of Revelation.

[iamlamad]

6 hours ago, Spock said:

Every single manuscript in the Majority Text containing Revelation 5:9–10 reads first person "us" in Revelation 5:9 except Codex Alexandrinus, which is widely believed to be the result of a simple copyist's error.

I tend to agree with you. It is a problem of a missing word. That is not difficult when copying a script.

[Spock]

39 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Ha ha! You have painted yourself into a corner, so to speak!  If Jesus is not yet risen (and He certainly is not - they cannot be representatives of the church. I think we can pinpoint when He rose  - or very close to it - when He is found in a search to be worthy to take the book. But this is AFTER John saw the 24 elders. The question is, HOW LONG after? Perhaps He was risen from the dead just before those 24 elders arrived (perhaps a moment before john saw into the throne room) giving 24 of them time to arrive in heaven and take their seats, but Jesus not at that moment yet found worthy. (How long would it take for a search in heaven and on earth?)  It is a puzzle!

Added later: I guess you realize, most people never even consider such things!

My wife is gloating now because since day 1 she has not believed the 24 elders to represent the church. She actually thinks they are not human and not angels. She lost me on that. 

[simplejeff]

40 minutes ago, Spock said:

My wife is gloating now because since day 1 she has not believed the 24 elders to represent the church. She actually thinks they are not human and not angels. She lost me on that. 

She is a true gift from the Lord,   honor her and hold her close.   Her wisdom is not known to many people - hold that and her sources close also - don't tell too many - it causes problems when it becomes known or at least stirs up unnecessary controversy (people don't want to know, and will fight fiercely against it) .

This message will self-destruct in 17 minutes.

Edited March 1, 2019 by simplejeff

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, Spock said:

My wife is gloating now because since day 1 she has not believed the 24 elders to represent the church. She actually thinks they are not human and not angels. She lost me on that. 

Wives do that!  ?

[Spock]

On 3/1/2019 at 7:21 PM, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

 

Analyzing this deep matter.  Knowing that God is the Word, then I ask: How can we know what the throne of God is like?  Psalms 97:v.2 reveals us the foundation of His throne, as follow:
Psa. 97:v.2 - AKJV - ... Righteousness and Judgment are the foundation of His throne. 

Yea, Righteousness and Judgment are the foundation of  God's throne, both Righteousness and Judgment are implicit in the Word. (the Word is God, the Person is the Word, God is a title).   
 

And who are the 24 elders sat on 24 thrones, they are already enthroned around God's throne clothed in white raiment and they have on their heads CROWNS of gold, no? They're already crowned, are not they? Be sure that God did choose 24 men unto which He would reveal His Word to write the books of the Old Testament.  

Here goes the 24 elders showed in Revelation 4:v.4
They are the 24 messengers of the Word (the Word is God), beginning by Moses:
1 - Moses 
2 - Joshua
3 - Samuel
4 - Ezra
5 - Nehemiah
6 - Job
7 - David
8 - Solomon
9 - Isaiah
10 - Jeremiah
11 - Ezekiel
12 - Daniel
13 - Hosea
14 - Joel
15 - Amos
16 - Obadiah
17 - Jonah
18 - Micah
19 - Nahum
20 - Habakkuk
21 - Zephaniah
22 - Haggai
23 - Zechariah
24 - Malachi

And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.  (What are the seven Spirits of God?  

Rev. 4:10-12 KJV
10 The four and twenty elders fall down before Him that sat on the throne, and worship Him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their CROWNS before the throne, saying,
11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive Glory and Honour and Power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
Amen.

Now see: What about the 12 Apostles of the Lord.  Are they already enthroned as them which are listed above and already enthroned in the third heaven?  Are not the 12 Apostles that will Judge the twelve tribes of Israel?

Matthew 19:27-28KJV
27 Then answered Peter and said unto JESUS, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?
28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of His glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.  (The Apostles will be enthroned yet, even now in the regeneration and the Son of man (remember: Michael is also a son of man, like the prophets  of the OT) shall sit in the throne of His glory. Rev. 2:v.26-27

Now unto the King Eternal, Immortal, Invisible, the only wise God, be Honour and Glory for ever and ever. Amen.

In Christ JESUS, KING of kings and LORD of lords

Oseas

Greetings My brother Oseas,

Wow...GREAT STUFF HERE Oseas.  Very interesting catch....the 24 prophets of God! Thank you for this. And thank you for changing your font so my “old tired eyes” can read your words. I’m glad you did because I can see the Lord has blessed you with great insight. 

Spock

[iamlamad]

On 3/1/2019 at 6:21 PM, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

 

Analyzing this deep matter.  Knowing that God is the Word, then I ask: How can we know what the throne of God is like?  Psalms 97:v.2 reveals us the foundation of His throne, as follow:
Psa. 97:v.2 - AKJV - ... Righteousness and Judgment are the foundation of His throne. 

Yea, Righteousness and Judgment are the foundation of  God's throne, both Righteousness and Judgment are implicit in the Word. (the Word is God, the Person is the Word, God is a title).   
 

And who are the 24 elders sat on 24 thrones, they are already enthroned around God's throne clothed in white raiment and they have on their heads CROWNS of gold, no? They're already crowned, are not they? Be sure that God did choose 24 men unto which He would reveal His Word to write the books of the Old Testament.  

Here goes the 24 elders showed in Revelation 4:v.4
They are the 24 messengers of the Word (the Word is God), beginning by Moses:
1 - Moses 
2 - Joshua
3 - Samuel
4 - Ezra
5 - Nehemiah
6 - Job
7 - David
8 - Solomon
9 - Isaiah
10 - Jeremiah
11 - Ezekiel
12 - Daniel
13 - Hosea
14 - Joel
15 - Amos
16 - Obadiah
17 - Jonah
18 - Micah
19 - Nahum
20 - Habakkuk
21 - Zephaniah
22 - Haggai
23 - Zechariah
24 - Malachi

And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.  (What are the seven Spirits of God?  

Rev. 4:10-12 KJV
10 The four and twenty elders fall down before Him that sat on the throne, and worship Him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their CROWNS before the throne, saying,
11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive Glory and Honour and Power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
Amen.

Now see: What about the 12 Apostles of the Lord.  Are they already enthroned as them which are listed above and already enthroned in the third heaven?  Are not the 12 Apostles that will Judge the twelve tribes of Israel?

Matthew 19:27-28KJV
27 Then answered Peter and said unto JESUS, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?
28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of His glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.  (The Apostles will be enthroned yet, even now in the regeneration and the Son of man (remember: Michael is also a son of man, like the prophets  of the OT) shall sit in the throne of His glory. Rev. 2:v.26-27

Now unto the King Eternal, Immortal, Invisible, the only wise God, be Honour and Glory for ever and ever. Amen.

In Christ JESUS, KING of kings and LORD of lords

Oseas

Hmmm. You could be right on these 24 being the elders John saw. 

[Montana Marv]

And yet the 1st Seal could easily be Satan sent out of Heaven for the last time, riding a white horse (He wants to be like the Most High, mimicking Christs Return).  The angels give him a stephanos (lessor crown) to wear and send him down to earth.  All the Seals, Trumpets, and Bowls are negative judgments for the earth.  All these can easily fit into the last 3 1/2 years.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[iamlamad]

On 3/1/2019 at 1:42 PM, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

No, JESUS did not do that. He did not show John a time before His ascention, absolutely. The Word desagree. John did write : Rev. 1:v.1 CJB  - This is the revelation which God gave to Yeshua the Messiah, so that he could show his servants what must happen very soon.  (future, not past)
Rev.1:v.4 - KJV - 4 John to the seven churches which ARE in Asia: (Present time) Grace be unto you, and peace, (1) from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and (2) from the seven Spirits which are before His throne; 5 And (3) from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto Him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in His own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Rev.1:v.19 - KJV- 19 Write the things which thou hast seen, ... (present time). John was in Patmos, behind him was One which said unto John: 
"What thou seest (present time), write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are (present time) in Asia);
...  and the things which are (present time), and the things which shall be hereafter; (time future)

Nothing of you said happened, absolutely. How could the own JESUS, the only who had won the right to open the book and its seven seals, "show John a search that ended in failure"?  Oh no!  By the way, even one of the 24 elders already did know who would open the book and its seals, no?  Rev.5:v.4-5 CJB - 

4 I cried and cried, because no one was found worthy to open the scroll or look inside it. 
5 And one of the elders said to me, “Don’t cry. Look, the Lion of the tribe of Y’hudah, the Root of David, has won the right to open the scroll and its seven seals.” 
What prevails is the revealed Word of God. 1John 5:v.7 -  7 There are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word (the Word made flesh), and the Holy Spirit: and these three are one.

JESUS left very very clear saying: John 16:v.7-11&14-15 

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

You are simply mistaken. What I said is truth. The vision of the throne room in chapter 4 & 5 was for John a vision of his past: looking at the throne room while Jesus was still on earth. This should be obvious: He was NOT SEEN by John at the right hand of God; "no man was found" in that first search John watched that ended in failure to find someone worthy to take the book and open the seals; and finally in chapter 4, the Holy Spirit is still in the throne room - showing us Jesus had not yet ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down.

Then in chapter 5, TIME HAD PASSED and in another search (perhaps the next search) someone WAS found to be worthy: Jesus had risen from the dead and was then found worthy to take the book. Then John saw the very moment Jesus ascended. 

Please keep in mind, I did not write this. I only remind people of what John wrote. Here I remind people of what we should come away with: a vision of the past. 

Don't get confused! 

It was 95 AD when John was called up to heaven - and Jesus had ascended some 60 years previous, but immediately upon arriving in heaven, John saw a vision of 32 AD or there about. God can show ANY time in a vision - past, present, or future - or all mixed.

The churches were churches that existed in 95 AD. They are LONG GONE today, but the messages are still relevant. 

The Word desagree.  No, this comes straight from the Word of God. The problem is, you don't understand God's intended meaning. 

so that he could show his servants what must happen very soon.   You imagine this has an ONLY in it: "so that he could show his servants ONLY what must happen very soon."  Sorry, no "only." God could have shown John two or three things of the future, then filled the rest of the book up with how He created the angels long before Adam - and He would not have gone against this verse. There is no "only" so God was free to include some history with the future. 

which ARE in Asia: (Present time)   I hope you meant present time to John in 95 AD!

"What thou seest (present time), write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are (present time) in Asia);
...  and the things which are (present time), and the things which shall be hereafter; (time future)

Again you are looking at this as if God had included an ONLY. Sorry, no only here.  God is free to include some history- which He DID. 

Now, since you disagree, answer these three questions Jesus asked me:

1. Why did John not immediately see Me at the right hand of God: there are a dozen verses saying that is where I should have been.

2. Why was "no man found" in that first search John watched?

3. Why was the Holy Spirit still in the throne room (Chapter 4), when I [Jesus} said that as soon as I ascended I would send Him down?

If you can give us satisfactory answers for these questions, maybe someone will believe you.

The truth is, John DID write of MANY things "hereafter."

"show John a search that ended in failure"?  Oh no!  Please explain then WHY John wept much. you included the very verse:  "4 I cried and cried, because no one was found worthy to open the scroll or look inside it. "  REad it again: NO one was found worthy." You see, in THAT particular search - no man was found - so that search ended in failure. It was a SUBSEQUENT search where someone was found worthy: it was JESUS! 

What you have missed: the MOVEMENT of time.

but if I depart, I will send him unto you.  Yet, in chapter 4, the Holy Spirit is there in the throne room, PROVING Jesus had not yet ascended to send Him down. 

What you have missed:  the TIMING! Jesus DOES ascend, but in chapter 5. John got to see that moment in time - the time: about 60 years into John's past.

In short, you have missed the intended meaning of both of these chapters. They are to show us that the first seals were opened in 32 AD.

[iamlamad]

Just now, Montana Marv said:

And yet the 1st Seal could easily be Satan sent out of Heaven for the last time, riding a white horse (He wants to be like the Most High, mimicking Christs Return).  The angels give him a stephanos (lessor crown) to wear and send him down to earth.  All the Seals, Trumpets, and Bowls are negative judgments for the earth.  All these can easily fit into the last 3 1/2 years.

In Christ

Montana Marv

No no no! You are imagining things again. John used the color white 17 times; 16 times to represent righteousness. You imagine God would use white once out of 17 times to represent evil. NEVER HAPPEN! 

[iamlamad]

On 3/1/2019 at 8:32 AM, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

You, with your wisdom, are inverting the things. First the book did need to be opened by anybody and then he would break the seals which were within it , no?  If you believe in this mysterious book, then you will see that you inverted the things.  

Rev.5:2&5-7&13 CJB : 

2 and I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the scroll and break its seals?”   ( If we compare what the angel and you said, we will see that the angel is right, you not. ) 

5  One of the elders said to me, “Don’t cry. Look, the Lion of the tribe of Y’hudah, the Root of David, has won the right to open the scroll and its seven seals.”

6 Then I saw standing there with the throne and the four living beings, in the circle of the elders, a Lamb that appeared to have been slaughtered. He had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the sevenfold Spirit of God sent out into all the earth. 

7 He came and took the scroll out of the right hand of the One sitting on the throne. 

13 And I heard every creature in heaven, on EARTH, under the earth and on the sea — yes, everything in them — saying, “To the One sitting on the throne and to the Lamb belong praise, honor, glory and power
forever and ever!”  Amen.

 

Well, having he firstly taken the book out of the right hand of the One sitting on the throne, the next step was to open the seals, no? Here goes:

I will quote the chapter 6 of the book of Apocalypse for you and all:

Rev. 6:v. 1 - 17 Complete Jewish Bible 

Next I watched as the Lamb broke the first of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living beings say in a thundering voice, “Go!” ² I looked, and there in front of me was a white horse; its rider had a bow and was given a crown; and he rode off as a conqueror to conquer.

³ When he broke the second seal, I heard the second living being say, “Go!” ⁴ Another horse went out, a red one; and its rider was given the power to take peace away from the earth and make people slaughter each other. He was given a great sword.

⁵ When he broke the third seal, I heard the third living being say, “Go!” I looked, and there in front of me was a black horse, and its rider held in his hand a pair of scales. ⁶ Then I heard what sounded like a voice from among the four living beings say, “Two pounds of wheat for a day’s wages! Six pounds of barley for the same price! But don’t damage the oil or the wine!”

⁷ When he broke the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living being say, “Go!” ⁸ I looked, and there in front of me was a pallid, sickly-looking horse. Its rider’s name was Death, and Sh’ol followed behind him. They were given authority to kill one-quarter of the world by war, by famine, by plagues and with the wild animals of the earth.

⁹ When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been put to death for proclaiming the Word of God, that is, for bearing witness. ¹⁰ They cried out in a loud voice, “Sovereign Ruler, HaKadosh, the True One, how long will it be before you judge the people living on earth and avenge our blood?” ¹¹ Each of them was given a white robe; and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow-servants should be reached, of their brothers who would be killed, just as they had been.

¹² Then I watched as he broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake, the sun turned black as sackcloth worn in mourning, and the full moon became blood-red. ¹³ The stars fell from heaven to earth just as a fig tree drops its figs when shaken by a strong wind. ¹⁴ The sky receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved from its place. ¹⁵ Then the earth’s kings, the rulers, the generals, the rich and the mighty — indeed, everyone, slave and free — hid himself in caves and among the rocks in the mountains, ¹⁶ and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us, and hide us^[a] from the face of the One sitting on the throne and from the fury of the Lamb! ¹⁷ For the Great Day of their fury has come, and who can stand?”

And all things written in the book were revealed as we can see from the chapter 6 to the 22. 

OF COURSE they are revealed: it is a book called "Revelation!" Even chapters 21 and 22 are "revealed." But that does not mean they have happened! They are FUTURE. In chapter 1, John is in HIS TIME, around 95 AD. In chapter 21, John is far far into our FUTURE. Common sense then would tell us, somewhere between chapter 1 and chapter 21 must be where we are NOW in time. 

When you really understand God's intended meaning in chapters 4 & 5, you understand the first seals were opened as soon as Jesus ascended - around 32 AD. Seal 5 is for the martyrs of the church age - sill ONGOING. So the church is at the 5th seal, and has been for a long time. But seal 6 is judgment and the start of the Day of the Lord. We are not there yet. That is FUTURE. 

Seals 1-5 are therefore past, but still ongoing.