What is your view of hell?

[Jostler]

On 2/14/2019 at 4:21 AM, DarrenJClark said:

For what it is worth there are very good reasons why Rev 14:11 does not support the idea of eternal conscious punishment in hell.  It has to do with how John used the OT in his work.  Ian Paul is am Anglican scholar from England and a specialist in the usage of imagery in Rev, having completed his PhD in that field of study and written the new ed. of the Tyndale commentary.  He comments as follows, 

"Though the phrase smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever (AT) has been interpreted as indicating a continual experience of torment (which raises some particular theological problems), this is difficult to sustain in the light of the parallel at 19:3, where in an identical phrase the ‘smoke from [the city Babylon] rises for ever and ever’ (AT). It is impossible to imagine the city being perpetually destroyed; the image must signify the eternal effect of its destruction, rather than an eternal process of destruction (cf. the destruction of Edom in Isa. 34:10)."

Paul, Ian. Revelation: An Introduction And Commentary (Tyndale New Testament Commentary) . IVP. Kindle Edition. 

Additionally, the "no rest day or night" is in the present tense in a way that shows the lack of rest relates only to while the worship is happening.  In other words, it is not referring to a lack of rest occurring into eternity.

It is something to think about.

putting your imagination and comparatively puny intellect above the clearly stated Words of His book, makes your God smaller than you  are.  Nice and comfy.....easy to manipulate.

[simplejeff]

POOOOOOOF

[DarrenJClark]

16 hours ago, B3L13v3R said:

I continue to notice that any heretical or false teaching if allowed to stand will be built upon by another, not only annihilationism.
There are many other false teachings in our generation doing just that.
Emergent, Ecumenical, and Eucharistic thinking that is wrongful, and being built upon heavily upon in the present.

Jesus Christ alone, removes us from the everlasting punishment and wrath to come. And I'm eternally grateful.

Some hard to understand things will damn the eternal soul, if one follows those who wrest Scriptures to their own destruction:

2 Peter 3:16-18  As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.  (17)  Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.  (18)  But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

Others will thoroughly confuse the Body of Christ, even making a shipwreck of their faith at times:

1 Timothy 1:18-20  This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;  (19)  Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:  (20)  Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

I mentioned some of the unsaved appreciate the fallacy of this annihilationism teaching, as it allows them to continue in their sins without much worry when NOTHING could be further from the Truth...

These verses could not be clearer, no matter how some may wrangle them. Without Jesus Christ, there will be eternal punishment. All the more reason for us to share the Gospel!

Matthew 25:41  Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Matthew 25:46  And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

As an addendum, over the years I've found these cultists with "another jesus" believe this same mistake of annihilationism, as I have spoken to many of them over time;

-Jehovah's Witnesses, (who also believe Jesus Christ was formally the Arch Angel Michael)
-Seventh-day Adventists, (Similar to JW's, they also believe Jesus Christ was the created Arch Angel Michael when He is mentioned in the Bible, only they feel he was not created, as Michael is a title applied to the Son of God in the Word. Not so!)
-Armstrongism, (Herbert. W. Armstrong along with his various splinter groups. Armstrong would teach that "Jesus did not become the Son of God until about 4 b.c., when born in human flesh of the virgin Mary.")
-Universalism (teaches all people will be saved, and there is no eternal Hell.)
-Christadelphians (Who believe Jesus had a sinful nature, and that His atonement was not substitutional for our sins.)


Annihilationism:
 They believe the Saved, as being the only ones who go on to live for eternity... They do not believe God's Words on the everlasting destruction for the lost in the Lake of Fire. But instead a literal and final death and destruction and they are no more.
They believe at some point, "POOF" ...and the lost are eternally gone.

Not so.

I hope you realize that Evangelical conditionalism is not equivalent to the annihilationism of the JWs and other groups.  There are some significant differences.

[DarrenJClark]

16 hours ago, B3L13v3R said:

Beyond commenting on the above, I do not feel compelled to debate you on your exegesis, that I see as flawed on every side of the eternal  issue on The Lake of Fire. The Word of God is clear on the matter.

Well, if you refuse to explain how and why my exegesis is incorrect then you have no basis for claiming that I am reading the Bible incorrectly.  Comments like the word of God is clear on the matter just amount to bald assertions.  That is your choice but it is not how you are going to convince me to change my mind (which I would if superior exegesis was presented to me). 

[DarrenJClark]

16 hours ago, B3L13v3R said:

This verse is a reference of what took place in the natural, that refers towards the example of the eternal fire, as per previous verses sited. For ever and ever come to mind:

2 Peter 2:6  And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

Exactly.  The complete destruction of S&G by fire, the burning of them to ash, is an example of the destruction wrought by the eternal fire.  Jude 7 and 2 Peter 2:6 are telling you that if you want to know what being in the eternal fire looks like then you only need to look at S&G.  The point from these biblical authors is the temporal destruction informs you on what the ultimate destruction looks like.   

[Jostler]

7 minutes ago, DarrenJClark said:

Exactly.  The complete destruction of S&G by fire, the burning of them to ash, is an example of the destruction wrought by the eternal fire.  Jude 7 and 2 Peter 2:6 are telling you that if you want to know what being in the eternal fire looks like then you only need to look at S&G.  The point from these biblical authors is the temporal destruction informs you on what the ultimate destruction looks like.   

there is an interpretive 'lens' I like to call the legal lens.  It gives a lot of insight  into man's free will and why  God gave it and will not allow anyone but man to violate it.  He will not violate it and satan isn't allowed to.

In that context, it becomes clear that torment is going to be eternal.  Once granted, God will not extinguish a consciousness...or He'd make Himself a liar and violate a boundary  He set for Himself and submitted Himself to.

Quote

Rom 11:22

Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

 

Edited March 2, 2019 by Jostler

[DarrenJClark]

13 hours ago, Jostler said:

putting your imagination and comparatively puny intellect above the clearly stated Words of His book, makes your God smaller than you  are.  Nice and comfy.....easy to manipulate.

How about instead of insulting me you address the points I made.

Do you deny John is drawing his imagery of ever ascending smoke from Isaiah 34:10 where complete destruction of Edom is pictured, and is using that same imagery in Rev 19:3 to depict the complete destruction of Babylon?  

Do you deny that the present tense participles are being used in Rev 14:11?

Did you even check out my claims or are you just assuming I fabricated this somehow?

I am pointing to detail within the text itself so the only way for you to credibly refute my argument is to show why this detail does not support my reading.

[Jostler]

1 minute ago, DarrenJClark said:

How about instead of insulting me you address the points I made.

Do you deny John is drawing his imagery of ever ascending smoke from Isaiah 34:10 where complete destruction of Edom is pictured, and is using that same imagery in Rev 19:3 to depict the complete destruction of Babylon?  

Do you deny that the present tense participles are being used in Rev 14:11?

Did you even check out my claims or are you just assuming I fabricated this somehow?

I am pointing to detail within the text itself so the only way for you to credibly refute my argument is to show why this detail does not support my reading.

I deny efforts to intellectually explain away the simple meanings in  clear text.  And I avoid wasting time on  hopeless, pointless tasks whenever I can.

[DarrenJClark]

17 hours ago, B3L13v3R said:

Folks, I have hope that those who stand on annihilationism, or conditionalism/annihilationism may change their thinking. If by some chance they do not, that you yourselves who know the Truth of this matter will stand fast, and not fall into the net of this wrongful thinking of removing, changing, choosing, smorgasbord handling of God's Word.
A lot of mistaken, or outright false teaching these days pretends to allow for our thinking, with the agenda of replacing the Truth with something new. In this case, "conditionalist/annihilationism."

One thing I know for certain, the annihilationists thinking in part cheapens and discounts the Gospel of Christ, who with His Words told us of "into the fire that never shall be quenched" and "Where their worm dieth not." I've noted them discounting that as well in their writings.
A Hell fire so awful that Jesus Christ told us it would be better to cut off a hand, foot, or pluck out an eye in this life and get into heaven, rather than wind up in Hell with two good hands, feet, and eyes.

Mark 9:43-47  And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:  (44)  Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.  (45)  And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:  (46)  Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.  (47)  And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

As a side note, on a number of occasions when evangelizing for Christ, I've met lost people that also believe this lie of annihilationism, that was erroneously taught to them by someone, or some "leader." And they will go towards great wranglings of the Bible to "prove" their cause, even though their not Saved!
Some of the lost enjoy this false teaching, as they fasten onto it as an escape clause, "just in case" there is a Lake of Fire, with their "faith" in annihilationism!
Therefore, it will not be all that bad if what I am telling them about the Gospel is correct and they "deny it."

Matthew 10:32-34  Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.  (33)  But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.  (34)  Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

I'll insure them the good news of the Gospel of Jesus Christ that can forgive them of their sins is absolutely correct, and a Christ-less eternity in the Lake of Fire for those who ignore His precious Gift of Salvation is also correct.

"Folks, I have hope that those who stand on annihilationism, or conditionalism/annihilationism may change their thinking. If by some chance they do not, that you yourselves who know the Truth of this matter will stand fast, and not fall into the net of this wrongful thinking of removing, changing, choosing, smorgasbord handling of God's Word."

 

If you truly believe this then you will need to spend more time engaging with my argument rather than just dismissing them.  

 

"A lot of mistaken, or outright false teaching these days pretends to allow for our thinking, with the agenda of replacing the Truth with something new. In this case, "conditionalist/annihilationism.""

 

That is just a bald assertion and in my case a completely incorrect assessment of my disposition towards the matter.  

 

"One thing I know for certain, the annihilationists thinking in part cheapens and discounts the Gospel of Christ, who with His Words told us of "into the fire that never shall be quenched" and "Where their worm dieth not." I've noted them discounting that as well in their writings."

 

Prove it.  Please avoid conflating JW , SDA, or other forms of annihilationism with Evangelical Conditionalism (EC).  I personally know many conditionalists who take the Gospel seriously, believing in the same soteriology as fond in Evangelicalism, and preach it regularly.  Your comments are just not accurate for EC.  

Oh, can you please provide detail on which EC proponent is discounting the force of "into the fire that never shall be quenched" and "Where their worm dieth not."?

 

I am willing to discuss this imagery as it appears in Is 66:24 and Mark 9:48 if you like.  

 

"A Hell fire so awful that Jesus Christ told us it would be better to cut off a hand, foot, or pluck out an eye in this life and get into heaven, rather than wind up in Hell with two good hands, feet, and eyes."

Yes, Matthew 18:8-9 contrasts the loss of a the part of the body with the whole of the body in Gehenna, the place where God destroys the body and the soul (Matt 10:28) with fire (Matt 3:12; 13:40-42).  I agree that is awful.

"As a side note, on a number of occasions when evangelizing for Christ, I've met lost people that also believe this lie of annihilationism, that was erroneously taught to them by someone, or some "leader." And they will go towards great wranglings of the Bible to "prove" their cause, even though their not Saved!

Some of the lost enjoy this false teaching, as they fasten onto it as an escape clause, "just in case" there is a Lake of Fire, with their "faith" in annihilationism!
Therefore, it will not be all that bad if what I am telling them about the Gospel is correct and they "deny it.""

 

So what?  I know several people who reject Christianity precisely because they think the idea of eternal conscious torment in hell is barbaric.  I also know people who only accepted the Gospel because they were scared by hell and then they later faltered because they did not have an understanding of the Gospel.  That is no reason to change one's mind about hell.  It is all about what is taught in the Bible, not how others interact wit that truth.  

 

"Matthew 10:32-34  Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.  (33)  But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.  (34)  Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

I'll insure them the good news of the Gospel of Jesus Christ that can forgive them of their sins is absolutely correct, and a Christ-less eternity in the Lake of Fire for those who ignore His precious Gift of Salvation is also correct."

I preach the good news too as salvation in found in Christ alone and that will save them from hell.  I am not sure how you think you and I are different on this.

[Jostler]

I'm truly astonished at the liberties some feel when it comes to  His Word.  If I'm hearing Him correctly, He's about to make some moves that will re-introduce His own to exactly what it means to "tremble" at His Word.   It's largely a concept that has disappeared from the  consciousness of the western "church"