Mid Trib rapture anyone?

[Spock]

32 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Spock,

Revelation 12: 1 - 5 is the scriptural identity of the victor who overcame the enemy, (described in Rev. 12: 9).  

In Genesis 3: 15 God foretold that the `seed,` of woman would crush the serpent, (Satan). The deliverer would come as a seed, not a tree, meaning not fully grown, & He would come from the woman & not from man. He would also come through God`s special nation of Israel. This is shown by the symbols `sun, moon & stars,` representing Jacob, Rachael & their 12 sons, the tribes of Israel.  (Gen. 37: 9)

 `Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, & on her head a garland of twelve stars.` (Rev. 12: 1)

 

Next we see read of Satan`s origins. He came from the heavens to the area near the earth. He had aspired to be as God but was cast down & with him a third of the angelic hosts.  

`And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a fiery red dragon having 7 heads & ten horns, & seven diadems on his head. His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven & threw them to the earth.` (Rev. 12: 3 & 4)

This description of Satan reveals him as one who masquerades as an angel of light & then shows his authority over the kingdoms of this world. Note the word `seven,` in Heb. means to be complete. He has complete control over the kingdoms of the world. 

  Satan said, `All these things (kingdoms) I will give you.......` (Matt. 4: 8 & 9)

              Red – fire like – flame coloured,  fig. lightning. (2 Cor. 11: 14   Luke 10: 18)

              Dragon –  a fabulous kind of serpent, to fascinate.  (2 Thess. 2: 9)

              7 heads –  Complete authority.  (1 John 5: 19)

              7 diadems –  Complete rulership. (Matt. 4: 8 & 9)

              10 horns -  Lawlessness,  power.  (Eph. 2: 2.     2 Thess. 2: 8 & 9)

     `the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one.` (John 5: 19)

 

Jesus the Promised Child.  

Jesus is the promised Son, the Child that Israel would bring forth to be the ruler of Israel & the kingdoms of the world.

  `For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given; & the government will be upon His shoulder.. upon the throne of David & over His kingdom,.....from that time forward, even forever.`(Isaiah 9; 6 & 7)

 

Satan, through King Herod tried to kill Jesus when He was born.  (Matt. 2: 16)

 `Then being with child, she cried out in labour & in pain to give birth...... And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth,
to devour her Child as soon as it was born.` (Rev. 12: 2 & 3))

 

Jesus was born of David`s line, in the nation of Israel. He is their Messiah but they did not receive Him. After His crucifixion & resurrection, He ascended into heaven & is seated at the right hand of the Father on His throne ready to `rule the nations with a rod of iron.`(Ps. 2: 9     Rev. 2: 27)

 `She bore a male Child who was to rule the nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God & His throne.` (Rev. 12: 5)

Marilyn.

Marilyn,

CONTEXT CONTEXT CONTEXT....I believe you are forgetting this important principle here.

This is Revelation 12, right in the middle of the final book of the Bible. 

Your interpretation makes this passage to be merely a history lesson and not PROPHETIC.  

Now let’s look at the verses closely...

“3Then another sign appeared in heaven: a huge red dragon with seven heads, ten horns, and seven royal crowns on his heads. 4His tail swept a third of the stars from the sky, tossing them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman as she was about to give birth, ready to devour her child as soon as He was born.

5And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.a And her child was caught up to God and to His throne. 6The woman fled into the wilderness, where God had prepared a place for her to be nourished for 1,260 days.”

Spock’s commentary: 

 

Chapter 12 starts out with the great sign in heaven that many, including me, believe happened on 9/23/2017, so the context to start this chapter is not the past, but the future (prophetic).  Keep reading....

“the dragon (Satan and his nations)  stood before the woman as she was about to give birth.”   Yes, Satan did everything he could to nullify the birth of Christ through Herod’s edict to kill all babies under 2, but keep reading....

”and as she gave birth to a son.....her child was caught up to God and to his throne.”  

Question: was Jesus caught up to the throne in heaven immediately after his birth?

Answer.....nope

Yet, this Son was caught up immediately upon birth. So, maybe it’s not talking about Christ. 

Keep reading for more context....

”the woman fled into the wilderness for 1260 days....”   okay this is very clear now...this happens after the abomination of desolation in the second half of the 70th week.

question:  Was Jesus caught up to heaven during the midpoint of Daniels 70th week or anytime around this time?  

Answer: of course not. Jesus ASCENDED (not caught up) to Heaven about 2000 years before this. Hmmm, now I know this isn’t just talking about Jesus and mother Mary. 

Conclusion: I’ve already shown you (review thread) that the verb HARPAZO was used for the rapture in 1 Thess 4 and NEVER USED to describe Jesus’ ascension. He just wasn’t caught up or snatched up.....he’s the Lord after all....who would SNATCH HIM?  (I even made myself laugh on this one) 

But when in doubt, ask yourself, what is the context on this passage?  It is in between chapter 11 (first half of the week) and chapter 13 (second half of the week).

Hint: Hmmmm.....maybe it has something to do with stuff going on in THE MIDDLE of the week! Ya think! 

Take it in Church ...........

 

Edited March 8, 2019 by Spock

[Marilyn C]

39 minutes ago, Spock said:

Marilyn,

CONTEXT CONTEXT CONTEXT....I believe you are forgetting this important principle here.

This is Revelation 12, right in the middle of the final book of the Bible. 

Your interpretation makes this passage to be merely a history lesson and not PROPHETIC.  

 

Hi Spock,

Yes the book of Revelation is the final book. However we know that all God`s purposes are about Christ. And the book of Revelation is the UNVEILING of the Son of Man as He is known in the heavenly realms. And that is presented in 4 visions. Ch. 12 is the last part of Vision 3, which is about Christ the Mighty Victor who overcame the enemy. Scriptural evidence is drawn upon to show who this victor is, and where He came from. That is why it is historic. It is proof of the victor`s identity.

It is a historic overview, not every detail of Christ`s life.

The context is - Christ is the centre of God`s word.

Marilyn. 

[iamlamad]

4 hours ago, Spock said:

The verb used in 12:5 to show how the male child went to heaven  is HARPAZO.  Care to guess where you have seen that verse used before? 1 Thess 4:17...the classic rapture passage.

It means, snatched up, caught up, suddenly.  Jesus was not caught up to Heaven. The verbs used to describe Christ going up never used harpazo.  Even john wrote in john 20:17 a different Greek verb....translated ascended. In fact John wrote 12 other times in the book of Revelation the same Greek verb meaning translated ASCEND but for some reason chose the verb HARPAZO in 12:5.  Coincidence brother?  I think not.  Our God is PRECISE, after all HE inspired the words. He chose HARPAZO so we could identify that verse with 1 Thess 4:17. 

John even used the Greek verb translated ASCEND when describing the two witnesses going back up to Heaven in 11:12 (“they went up” , were not SNATCHED UP).   John Did not use HARPAZO because.....they were NOT SNATCHED UP OR CAUGHT UP. 

SO, who do we know was SNATCHED UP OR CAUGHT UP? 

THE CHURCH!  The body of Christ.  

If that isn’t enough proof for you, if you say that only is referencing Jesus and not his body....was Jesus snatched up to Heaven AFTER HE WAS BORN?  Nope. 

Why do I ask that?  CONTEXT MYBROTHER CONTEXT!

Look at verses 3-5 of chapter 12.  You have this great red dragon licking his chops seeking to DEVOUR THE MALE CHILD.  Notice, as soon as the male child was born......you say this is only about Jesus.....the verse says “and her child was caught up to God and to His throne.” 

Question: Was Jesus snatched up to Heaven immediately after being born?  Nope, no way.  (I already shown you he wasn’t snatched up even when he ascended, but the context here is not after his crucifixion, but rather the male child’s BIRTH...it is when he was born, “she gave birth to a son.”) 

But the Body of Christ, upon its birth (fullness) ,  will be snatched up.  

Conclusion:  12:5 does describe the rapture better than describing anyone else. 

Will Harpazo FIT? That is the only question you need ask. 

A form of this word is used 14 times:

14 Occurrences

ἁρπαγησόμεθα — 1 Occ.  This one is used for the rapture in 1 thes. 
ἁρπαγέντα — 1 Occ.
ἁρπάσαι — 2 Occ.
ἁρπάσει — 1 Occ.
ἁρπάζει — 2 Occ.
ἁρπάζειν — 2 Occ.
ἁρπάζοντες — 1 Occ.
ἁρπάζουσιν — 1 Occ.
ἡρπάγη — 1 Occ.
ἥρπασεν — 1 Occ.
ἡρπάσθη — 1 Occ.  This was is used here in Rev. 12. 

In its different forms it can mean:  catch up (4x), take by force (3x), catch away (2x), pluck (2x), catch (1x), pull (1x).

Was Jesus pulled up? Was He caught away? It may well be each of these 14 uses has a distinct "flavor" to it. 

We will just have to ask John when we get there why he used that particular word.

It is poor exegesis to make a verse say what you want it to say using only ONE WORD!

Ellicot's commentary:  There can be no doubt that this man child is Christ

Barne's Notes:  And she brought forth a man child - Representing, according to the view above taken, the church ...

And her child was caught up unto God - This is evidently a symbolical representation. Some event was to occur, or some divine interposition was to take place, as if the child thus born were caught up from the earth to save it from death, and was rendered secure by being in the presence of God, and near his throne. It cannot be supposed that anything like this would "literally" occur. Any divine interposition to protect the church in its increase, or to save it from being destroyed by the dragon - the fierce pagan power - would be properly represented by this. Why may we not suppose the reference to be to the time of Constantine, when the church came under his protection

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Commentary:   A rod is for long-continued obstinacy until they submit themselves to obedience [Bengel]: Re 2:27; Ps 2:9, which passages prove the Lord Jesus to be meant. Any interpretation which ignores this must be wrong. The male son's birth cannot be the origin of the Christian state (Christianity triumphing over heathenism under Constantine),...

Matthew Poole Commentary:  rule all nations with a rod of iron. It was prophesied of Christ, Psalm 2:9, that he should break the nations with a rod of iron. It is applied to the servants of Christ, who overcome, and keep Christ’s words to the end, Revelation 2:27. So as it is here applicable to believers, whom the church should bring forth... To interpret it of Christ’s being taken up into heaven, is to turn a mysterious prophecy into a plain relation, or history of things past. To interpret it concerning Constantine the Great, seemeth very hard

Gill's Commentary: And she brought forth a man child,.... Not Christ, literally and personally considered, or Christ in his human nature, as made of a woman, and born of a virgin, which was a fact that had been years ago; but Christ mystically, or Christ in his members, who are called by his name, because he is formed in them, and they are the seed of the woman, the church; 

It seems the commentaries almost all are against me in this! Imagine that. I found it VERY strange, not one commentary that I found ever mentioned the constellation Virgo, and most people today are SURE that is what is being referenced. 

I was really disappointed in the commentaries here. 

The sun and moon reference goes back to Joseph and His dreams. The 12 stars reference the 12 tribes of Israel. There can be no question the woman is Israel. Who was Israel pregnant with? The Messiah had been promised for thousands of years, but finally came through a virgin. Psalms tell us Jesus, the Messiah was to rule with a rod of Iron.

Then there is the CONTEXT: the Dragon is mentioned 32 times in this chapter. Make no mistake, this chapter is about the Dragon. In particular it is about what the Dragon would be doing in the last half of the week. He would be after the woman who flees into the wilderness - that is, those that live in Judea. Does the church live in Judea? Is the church fleeing? Then when the Dragon finds that the woman that fled is supernaturally protected, He turns to war against the remnant of her offspring, those that follow Jesus. Notice it is ONLY a remnant. 

This is the ONLY reference in this chapter that fits the church, and at this time it is ONLY a remnant.  We already KNOW the church was raptured way back 3.5 plus years before  - just before the 6th seal. How then can you possibly see ANY reference here to the rapture? You are confusing the woman  - Israel - with the church. 

 

[Spock]

9 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Will Harpazo FIT? That is the only question you need ask. 

A form of this word is used 14 times:

14 Occurrences

ἁρπαγησόμεθα — 1 Occ.  This one is used for the rapture in 1 thes. 
ἁρπαγέντα — 1 Occ.
ἁρπάσαι — 2 Occ.
ἁρπάσει — 1 Occ.
ἁρπάζει — 2 Occ.
ἁρπάζειν — 2 Occ.
ἁρπάζοντες — 1 Occ.
ἁρπάζουσιν — 1 Occ.
ἡρπάγη — 1 Occ.
ἥρπασεν — 1 Occ.
ἡρπάσθη — 1 Occ.  This was is used here in Rev. 12. 

In its different forms it can mean:  catch up (4x), take by force (3x), catch away (2x), pluck (2x), catch (1x), pull (1x).

Was Jesus pulled up? Was He caught away? It may well be each of these 14 uses has a distinct "flavor" to it. 

We will just have to ask John when we get there why he used that particular word.

It is poor exegesis to make a verse say what you want it to say using only ONE WORD!

Ellicot's commentary:  There can be no doubt that this man child is Christ

Barne's Notes:  And she brought forth a man child - Representing, according to the view above taken, the church ...

And her child was caught up unto God - This is evidently a symbolical representation. Some event was to occur, or some divine interposition was to take place, as if the child thus born were caught up from the earth to save it from death, and was rendered secure by being in the presence of God, and near his throne. It cannot be supposed that anything like this would "literally" occur. Any divine interposition to protect the church in its increase, or to save it from being destroyed by the dragon - the fierce pagan power - would be properly represented by this. Why may we not suppose the reference to be to the time of Constantine, when the church came under his protection

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Commentary:   A rod is for long-continued obstinacy until they submit themselves to obedience [Bengel]: Re 2:27; Ps 2:9, which passages prove the Lord Jesus to be meant. Any interpretation which ignores this must be wrong. The male son's birth cannot be the origin of the Christian state (Christianity triumphing over heathenism under Constantine),...

Matthew Poole Commentary:  rule all nations with a rod of iron. It was prophesied of Christ, Psalm 2:9, that he should break the nations with a rod of iron. It is applied to the servants of Christ, who overcome, and keep Christ’s words to the end, Revelation 2:27. So as it is here applicable to believers, whom the church should bring forth... To interpret it of Christ’s being taken up into heaven, is to turn a mysterious prophecy into a plain relation, or history of things past. To interpret it concerning Constantine the Great, seemeth very hard

Gill's Commentary: And she brought forth a man child,.... Not Christ, literally and personally considered, or Christ in his human nature, as made of a woman, and born of a virgin, which was a fact that had been years ago; but Christ mystically, or Christ in his members, who are called by his name, because he is formed in them, and they are the seed of the woman, the church; 

It seems the commentaries almost all are against me in this! Imagine that. I found it VERY strange, not one commentary that I found ever mentioned the constellation Virgo, and most people today are SURE that is what is being referenced. 

I was really disappointed in the commentaries here. 

The sun and moon reference goes back to Joseph and His dreams. The 12 stars reference the 12 tribes of Israel. There can be no question the woman is Israel. Who was Israel pregnant with? The Messiah had been promised for thousands of years, but finally came through a virgin. Psalms tell us Jesus, the Messiah was to rule with a rod of Iron.

Then there is the CONTEXT: the Dragon is mentioned 32 times in this chapter. Make no mistake, this chapter is about the Dragon. In particular it is about what the Dragon would be doing in the last half of the week. He would be after the woman who flees into the wilderness - that is, those that live in Judea. Does the church live in Judea? Is the church fleeing? Then when the Dragon finds that the woman that fled is supernaturally protected, He turns to war against the remnant of her offspring, those that follow Jesus. Notice it is ONLY a remnant. 

This is the ONLY reference in this chapter that fits the church, and at this time it is ONLY a remnant.  We already KNOW the church was raptured way back 3.5 plus years before  - just before the 6th seal. How then can you possibly see ANY reference here to the rapture? You are confusing the woman  - Israel - with the church. 

 

Don’t mean to be disrespectful, but I believe all of those guys you cited have been long dead and as we both know, Daniel said knowledge will increase as we get closer to the day of Christ. Those guys were limited....

i bet none of those even had a clue about this great sign in the heavens we recently had....Rev 12:1-3. Why would they?  Their knowledge was limited. 

Oh....and Jesus was NOT CAUGHT UP Bro!  You know that too....John would not have used that verb seeing that 12 times in the book of Rev he used the Greek word that translated ASCEND.  YOU KNOW BETTER!  Don’t fight the force pulling you toward the light here.....??

 

[Marilyn C]

1 hour ago, Spock said:

 

Hi Spock,

Just another thought.

The Body of Christ is not of Abraham, Israel, the woman with 12 stars, etc. We are of Christ, the life-giving spirit. (1 Cor. 15: 45)

Marilyn.

[Spock]

1 hour ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Spock,

Just another thought.

The Body of Christ is not of Abraham, Israel, the woman with 12 stars, etc. We are of Christ, the life-giving spirit. (1 Cor. 15: 45)

Marilyn.

Oh really....

Romans 4:16: Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring--not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all.

Edited March 8, 2019 by Spock

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, Spock said:

Don’t mean to be disrespectful, but I believe all of those guys you cited have been long dead and as we both know, Daniel said knowledge will increase as we get closer to the day of Christ. Those guys were limited....

i bet none of those even had a clue about this great sign in the heavens we recently had....Rev 12:1-3. Why would they?  Their knowledge was limited. 

Oh....and Jesus was NOT CAUGHT UP Bro!  You know that too....John would not have used that verb seeing that 12 times in the book of Rev he used the Greek word that translated ASCEND.  YOU KNOW BETTER!  Don’t fight the force pulling you toward the light here.....??

 

You are right: I think the average laymen who studies his or her bible knows more about this that any of these commentators.  Still, I like to know what they say.  

I am not sure; being in heaven and knowing now as they were known, they just MAY know about this sign in the heavens.  Is it not possible God chose to use "ascend" in one place and a word that could mean "being pulled" in another place? 

Again, you are trying to make a doctrine out of ONE WORD! What about the context? Are you going to ignore the context? I think you know better! 

What is it you are trying to show: that the rapture of the church is here in chapter 12? What about the great crowd, too large to number - that was seen in heaven several chapters back?  Are you not imagining TWO raptures?  Or are you hinting that you must rearrange Revelation to fit a theory? Sorry, I won't form a doctrine on ONE WORD! 

[Marilyn C]

2 hours ago, Spock said:

Oh really....

Romans 4:16: Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring--not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all.

Hi Spock,

Oh I can`t miss that ay. Are you shouting at me, (lol). I hear you and thought you`d find that. Well if you have a close look it means that Abraham is the Father OF FAITH, not of genealogy. And yes...really! (lol) Those who have the FAITH OF Abraham, not the genes.

Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

Hi Spock,

Let`s see if we can sort this out.

We are told in Acts 1: 9 and John 20: 17 that Jesus was `taken up.` The Gk. word `anaiambano,` meaning `to take up.`

This tells us WHERE Jesus was taken, - up not down into hell etc.

Then in Rev. 12: 5 the Child was `caught up` to God. The Gk. word `harpozo` (as you said) meaning to seize, catch up,

This then tells us HOW he went up. Did he go slowly, quickly, or in a chariot etc. He was caught up.

So God tells us WHERE Jesus would go - UP, and later tells us HOW He went, caught up, (quickly).

 

Marilyn.

 

[Marilyn C]

Hi Spock,

If one is to think that the Child is the Body of Christ, then they would have to disregard all this -

- Christ is the Child, offspring of Israel. (the woman)

- Satan, (the dragon) seeks to kill Him.

- Christ is the male child to rule the nations.

- Christ was caught up to the Father`s throne.

- Christ is the victor over the enemy.

 

Marilyn.