ARGOSY Posted March 8, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,695 Content Per Day: 0.45 Reputation: 583 Days Won: 2 Joined: 01/03/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/11/1968 Share Posted March 8, 2019 5 hours ago, Marilyn C said: Hi Spock, If one is to think that the Child is the Body of Christ, then they would have to disregard all this - - Christ is the Child, offspring of Israel. (the woman) - Satan, (the dragon) seeks to kill Him. - Christ is the male child to rule the nations. - Christ was caught up to the Father`s throne. - Christ is the victor over the enemy. Marilyn. Exactly , if Christ , her first offspring is the church, why then are the REST OF HER OFFSPRING also the church? Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus. Footnotes: 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spock Posted March 8, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 29 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,239 Content Per Day: 0.86 Reputation: 1,686 Days Won: 6 Joined: 12/26/2013 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 8, 2019 7 hours ago, Marilyn C said: Hi Spock, If one is to think that the Child is the Body of Christ, then they would have to disregard all this - - Christ is the Child, offspring of Israel. (the woman) - Satan, (the dragon) seeks to kill Him. - Christ is the male child to rule the nations. - Christ was caught up to the Father`s throne. - Christ is the victor over the enemy. Marilyn. I actually believe there is a dual layered massage in that ....with Mary/Jesus being the SECONDARY message, and Israel/Church being the primary message. You know how the Bible has these near and far messages quite often. Something like that. PS. I apologize for the font and the yellow shade. I copied that from my Bible app and obviously I highlighted that verse because it has deep significance to me....that this insignificant gentile has Abraham for a FATHER TOO! Lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spock Posted March 8, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 29 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,239 Content Per Day: 0.86 Reputation: 1,686 Days Won: 6 Joined: 12/26/2013 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 8, 2019 1 hour ago, ARGOSY said: Exactly , if Christ , her first offspring is the church, why then are the REST OF HER OFFSPRING also the church? Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus. Footnotes: Well, faith began with the Jews, right? Abraham. The Church is formed through FAITH, right? So it seems to me that makes us the offspring of the Jews. As for the “remnant of the woman” that Satan goes after in 12:17, I’m not 100% sure the identity of this group. It seems like it could be the 144,000 or the Trib Saints who came to FAITH after the rapture. It says this group keep the COMMANDMENTS of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus so that is why I favor a 144,000 INTERPRETATION first. But I can’t be dogmatic here. Obviously I don’t believe the group is the Church because I see the rapture in 12:5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spock Posted March 8, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 29 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,239 Content Per Day: 0.86 Reputation: 1,686 Days Won: 6 Joined: 12/26/2013 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 8, 2019 (edited) 9 hours ago, iamlamad said: You are right: I think the average laymen who studies his or her bible knows more about this that any of these commentators. Still, I like to know what they say. I am not sure; being in heaven and knowing now as they were known, they just MAY know about this sign in the heavens. Is it not possible God chose to use "ascend" in one place and a word that could mean "being pulled" in another place? Again, you are trying to make a doctrine out of ONE WORD! What about the context? Are you going to ignore the context? I think you know better! What is it you are trying to show: that the rapture of the church is here in chapter 12? What about the great crowd, too large to number - that was seen in heaven several chapters back? Are you not imagining TWO raptures? Or are you hinting that you must rearrange Revelation to fit a theory? Sorry, I won't form a doctrine on ONE WORD! Well, I think we both would agree that verse is talkin about: a. Jesus b. Church c.both i choose C because I don’t think it is merely a history lesson. As I mentioned previously, CONTEXT is huge for me here. Rev 12:1-3 is talking about something that just recently happened in 9/23/2017. Rev :6 on is talking about something that will happen after the abomination of desolation. I don’t believe smack dab in the middle is a history lesson from 2000 years ago. The rapture fits nicely. Watch the chronology in progression: 1. Great sign in Heaven (2017) 2. Rapture 3. Jews fleeing after abomination. The history lesson only doesn’t work for me. If you and Marilyn are happy with the history lesson only, so be it. I gave you two a ton of reasons to show the rapture. The rest is up to you to decide is it right or wrong. You won’t hurt my feelings if you disagree with my interpretation. As you can see, I feel pretty good on what I believe on this one. My purpose is merely to share my thoughts and studies, not to make converts for my way of thinking. After all, who am I? My name might be Paul, but I can assure you I don’t have his insight ( he was HARPAZOED/snatched up to Heaven in a vision and saw great things). It’s all good Church! Spock PS. Yes, I do 8nterpret Rev 7:9-17 as the raptured church so I don’t find a conflict here. Chapter 7 was just mentioning the two good groups that are end time players. Rev 12:5 gave us a deeper perspective of how those two groups were involved. Edited March 8, 2019 by Spock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARGOSY Posted March 8, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,695 Content Per Day: 0.45 Reputation: 583 Days Won: 2 Joined: 01/03/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/11/1968 Share Posted March 8, 2019 17 minutes ago, Spock said: Well, faith began with the Jews, right? Abraham. The Church is formed through FAITH, right? So it seems to me that makes us the offspring of the Jews. As for the “remnant of the woman” that Satan goes after in 12:17, I’m not 100% sure the identity of this group. It seems like it could be the 144,000 or the Trib Saints who came to FAITH after the rapture. It says this group keep the COMMANDMENTS of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus so that is why I favor a 144,000 INTERPRETATION first. But I can’t be dogmatic here. Obviously I don’t believe the group is the Church because I see the rapture in 12:5. I go with the obvious, which is admittedly a subjective standard. To me as a post trib, it's obvious that the man child is Jesus, offspring of the woman, Israel. The church are the rest of her offspring. This 1260 days of persecution of the rest of the offspring fits in with the 42 months of persecution of the church under the beast (Rev 13) and the 3.5 years of persecution of the little horn of Daniel 7. In all 3 cases we have a final 3.5 years of persecution, so it's unlikely there's some other group being persecuted here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted March 8, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.08 Reputation: 689 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted March 8, 2019 3 minutes ago, Spock said: Well, I think we both would agree that verse is talkin about: a. Jesus b. Church c.both i choose C because I don’t think it is merely a history lesson. As I mentioned previously, CONTEXT is huge for me here. Rev 12:1-3 is talking about something that just recently happened in 9/23/2017. Rev :6 on is talking about something that will happen after the abomination of desolation. I don’t believe smack dab in the middle is a history lesson from 2000 years ago. The rapture fits nicely. Watch the chronology in progression: 1. Great sign in Heaven (2017) 2. Rapture 3. Jews fleeing after abomination. The history lesson only doesn’t work for me. If you and Marilyn are happy with the history lesson only, so be it. I gave you two a ton of reasons to show the rapture. The rest is up to you to decide is it right or wrong. You won’t hurt my feelings if you disagree with my interpretation. As you can see, I feel pretty good on what I believe on this one. My purpose is merely to share my thoughts and studies, not to make converts for my way of thinking. After all, who am I? My name might be Paul, but I can assure you I don’t have his insight ( he was HARPAZOED/snatched up to Heaven in a vision and saw great things). It’s all good Church! Spock PS. Yes, I do 8nterpret Rev 7:9-17 as the raptured church so I don’t find a conflict here. Chapter 7 was just mentioning the two good groups that are end time players. Rev 12:5 gave us a deeper perspective of how those two groups were involved. Let's talk about context: the entire rest of the chapter is talking about the dragon Remember, when Jesus was giving me a short synopsis of the chapter, He asked me to count how many times the Dragon had been mentioned: I counted 32 times! FACT: this chapter is about the Dragon, NOT the church. It shows the dragon cast down from heaven. The signal for Michael to go after the Dragon to take him down will be the 7th trumpet that marks the midpoint of the week. After the Dragon cast down, he goes after the Jews first, then believers in Jesus Christ. Therefore the most obvious meaning for the first 5 verses would be that they also are about the Dragon - and indeed they ARE. I still say Jesus own explanation is by far the best one: those five verses are about how the Dragon tried to kill him as a young child. FACT: God's wrath has been ongoing since the 6th seal - so you are IGNORING the scriptures that tell us we are not here for His wrath. FACT: you are ignoring that John's narrative is extremely chronological. FACT: you are ignoring that the rapture took place before the 6th seal and the church was seen in heaven way back in chapter 7. If the first five verses could possibly have a second meaning, it still could not be about the church, but only about the remnant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spock Posted March 8, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 29 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,239 Content Per Day: 0.86 Reputation: 1,686 Days Won: 6 Joined: 12/26/2013 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 8, 2019 5 minutes ago, ARGOSY said: I go with the obvious, which is admittedly a subjective standard. To me as a post trib, it's obvious that the man child is Jesus, offspring of the woman, Israel. The church are the rest of her offspring. This 1260 days of persecution of the rest of the offspring fits in with the 42 months of persecution of the church under the beast (Rev 13) and the 3.5 years of persecution of the little horn of Daniel 7. In all 3 cases we have a final 3.5 years of persecution, so it's unlikely there's some other group being persecuted here Not surprised here. If I believed in a post Trib rapture, I’m sure I would interpret that chapter as you said too. My wife and I agree of this: plan A......we probably won’t see the peace treaty and the temple being rebuilt. BUT if we do, go to plan b plan B....we won’t see the abomination of desolation, but if we do, go to plan c plan c....lock and load because we are in for the long haul.....lol 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARGOSY Posted March 8, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,695 Content Per Day: 0.45 Reputation: 583 Days Won: 2 Joined: 01/03/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/11/1968 Share Posted March 8, 2019 1 minute ago, Spock said: Not surprised here. If I believed in a post Trib rapture, I’m sure I would interpret that chapter as you said too. My wife and I agree of this: plan A......we probably won’t see the peace treaty and the temple being rebuilt. BUT if we do, go to plan b plan B....we won’t see the abomination of desolation, but if we do, go to plan c plan c....lock and load because we are in for the long haul.....lol Lol good approach. But another thing to be aware of , is it's only 3.5 years from the revealing of the antichrist. Not 7 years. If somehow we bypass the 7 year treaty ( I think we won't even know about that) , then suddenly the antichrist comes to power, it's only a short 3.5 years to wait. So be encouraged on that outside chance you find yourself in the tribulation. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted March 8, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.08 Reputation: 689 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted March 8, 2019 25 minutes ago, Spock said: Well, faith began with the Jews, right? Abraham. The Church is formed through FAITH, right? So it seems to me that makes us the offspring of the Jews. As for the “remnant of the woman” that Satan goes after in 12:17, I’m not 100% sure the identity of this group. It seems like it could be the 144,000 or the Trib Saints who came to FAITH after the rapture. It says this group keep the COMMANDMENTS of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus so that is why I favor a 144,000 INTERPRETATION first. But I can’t be dogmatic here. Obviously I don’t believe the group is the Church because I see the rapture in 12:5. I choose the trib saints. The 144,000 are probably already raptured, but John has not had time to cover them yet - too many other things happen at the midpoint. John gets introduced to the two witnesses, then to the Dragon, then to the Beast who will be possessed by the Dragon. All these events are very close to the midpoint of the week. I think the 144, being first fruits will not have to suffer under the Beast. In chapter 14 I don't think John saw them as martyrs. I am certainly amazed that you set not only your OWN appointment with His Wrath, you are willing to set appointments for the entire Bride of Christ with His wrath! Amazing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spock Posted March 8, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 29 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,239 Content Per Day: 0.86 Reputation: 1,686 Days Won: 6 Joined: 12/26/2013 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 8, 2019 5 minutes ago, iamlamad said: Let's talk about context: the entire rest of the chapter is talking about the dragon Remember, when Jesus was giving me a short synopsis of the chapter, He asked me to count how many times the Dragon had been mentioned: I counted 32 times! FACT: this chapter is about the Dragon, NOT the church. It shows the dragon cast down from heaven. The signal for Michael to go after the Dragon to take him down will be the 7th trumpet that marks the midpoint of the week. After the Dragon cast down, he goes after the Jews first, then believers in Jesus Christ. Therefore the most obvious meaning for the first 5 verses would be that they also are about the Dragon - and indeed they ARE. I still say Jesus own explanation is by far the best one: those five verses are about how the Dragon tried to kill him as a young child. FACT: God's wrath has been ongoing since the 6th seal - so you are IGNORING the scriptures that tell us we are not here for His wrath. FACT: you are ignoring that John's narrative is extremely chronological. FACT: you are ignoring that the rapture took place before the 6th seal and the church was seen in heaven way back in chapter 7. If the first five verses could possibly have a second meaning, it still could not be about the church, but only about the remnant. I still have a lot to sort out LA now that I recently discovered this “truth”.....the chapter 11-13 timeline with the rapture in the middle at 12:5. So let me get back to you as to how I see the trumpets and bowls play out. I’m still processing this all only now with a new filter. Consider me like an artist and so far all I’ve done is the etching, before I begging to paint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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