The Hebrews Roots Movement

[BibleGuy]

18 hours ago, Resurrection Priest said:

re:  the word "changed"

The priesthood is the ONLY THING that is specifically described as “changed” under the New Covenant.  

Hebrews 7:12 “Any change in the priesthood must mean a change in the Law as well.” (NJB)

3346 metati,qhmi metatithemi {met-at-ith'-ay-mee}
Meaning:  1) to transpose (two things, one of which is put in place of the other) 1a) to transfer  (move from one place to another)

Was "the Law" moved to a "new location" ?  No.

Many have argued that the word translated as “changed” in the English, can mean only a change of location, but the word (3346) is translated as “turned into” in Jude 1:4.

"who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ. (Jud 1:4 NKJ)  One thing is turned into another, or substituted for another. 
 

 

 

I think there's more flexibility to "μετατίθημι" than just transposition (substitution) or physical transfer.

Look at"μετατίθημι" here:

1Ki. 21:25  (LXX 20:25) πλὴν ματαίως Αχααβ ὡς ἐπράθη ποιῆσαι τὸ πονηρὸν ἐνώπιον κυρίου ὡς μετέθηκεν αὐτὸν Ιεζαβελ ἡ γυνὴ αὐτοῦ

Seems to be more the idea of transferring FOCUS from one thing to another....not transposition or substitution or physical transfer.

Again, "μετατίθημι" can evidently mean:  "TO GO OVER OR PASS OVER".

 

And sure enough, in Heb. 7:12 we find the Messiah NOT focusing upon Levitical Priesthood rules for permanent sin removal....

Rather, we find the Messiah focusing upon Melchizedek Priesthood rules for permanent sin removal....

The Messiah PASSES OVER (not transposes...not substitutes...not physically transfers) FROM the Levitical sphere, and passes over to focus upon the Melchizedek sphere to achieve permanent sin removal.

 

But no Levitical law transposed into a different Levitical law.

No Levitical law transferred to another location.

No Melchizedek law transposed into a different Melchizedek law.

No Melchizedek law transferred to another location.

Melchizedek laws need not SUBSTITUTE for Levitical laws...because BOTH can function simultaneously.

After all, Jesus CONTINUES as an ongoing Melchizedek priest who will RESTORE the Levitical Priesthood (Mal.3:4)...so there's the confirmation that BOTH can function simultaneously.

 

So, we simply have the Messiah discerning the inferiority of the Levitical priesthood....and focusing upon the requisite Melchizedek Priesthood sphere of operation so as to achieve complete sin removal.

 

This in NO WAY requires termination or cessation of animal-sacrifice activity, as I've already shown.

After all, Jesus comes to RESTORE those very Levitical animal sacrifices (Mal.3:4) to fulfill Eze.40-47;Jer.33;Is.66;Zec.14;Is.61;Dt.30:1-8;etc.

 

blessings...

 

[BibleGuy]

18 hours ago, Resurrection Priest said:

The point is made by the writer of Hebrews that the Levite priests served only the copy, the prophecy, the type. 

Hebrews 9:24 "It is not as though Christ had entered a man-made sanctuary which was merely a model of the real one; he entered heaven itself, so that he now appears in the presence of God on our behalf." (NJB)

The Tabernacle/Temple was definitely a prophecy/type of the True Tabernacle - Heaven itself.

Hebrews 9:13 "For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh [ritual pruity] (NKJ).

But in the Kingdom, we will not BE FLESH.  So why would we still need ceremonies to cleanse the flesh? 

1 Corinthians 15:50 "Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable." (NAS)

"But in the Kingdom, we will not BE FLESH."

Jesus looks quite PHYSICAL to me! (Jn.20:27)

Sure, our resurrection bodies will be DIFFERENT than our current bodies....but that doesn't mean they aren't "flesh" of some kind.

 

"1 Corinthians 15:50 "Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable." (NAS)"

And if our Resurrection bodies are FLESH AND BONE...then that's different!

 

blessings...

 

 

[BibleGuy]

18 hours ago, Resurrection Priest said:

BibleGuy noted that  Mal.3:4 is yet future.  I agree. 

Malachi 3:2 “But who can endure the day when he comes? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner's fire, like the soapmaker's lye. 3 He will sit, testing and purifying the silver; he will purify the sons of Levi, refining them like gold and silver, so that they can bring offerings to ADONAI uprightly. 4 Then the offering of Y'hudah and Yerushalayim will be pleasing to ADONAI, as it was in the days of old, as in years gone by.” (CJB)

Rachel comments:

Once the LORD has purified these “sons of Levi” they will bring offerings that will please ADONAI.  Was the LORD ever “pleased” with the blood of sheep and goats?  No.  He wanted obedience with humility.  “The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; A broken and a contrite heart, O God, Thou wilt not despise” (Psa 51:17 NAS).

Micah 6:7 “Will the Lord accept thousands of rams, or ten thousands of fat goats? . . . 8 Has it not been told thee, O man, what is good? or what does the Lord require of thee, but to do justice, and love mercy, and be ready to walk with the Lord thy God?” (LXA)

Hebrews 10:4-5 “Bulls' blood and goats' blood are incapable of taking away sins, and that is why he said, on coming into the world: You wanted no sacrifice or cereal offering, but you gave me a body.” (NJB)

The Apostolic Writings give several examples of "spiritual sacrifices" which we can offer during this age.  These sacrifices are "pleasing" to God.

    1. praise and thanks to God (Heb. 13:15)    2. our lives dedicated to God (2 Tim. 4:6)  
    3. the service of faith (Phil. 2:17)                4. the bodies of martyrs (Rom. 12:1)  
    5. gifts to the poor (Phil. 4:18)    
    6. visiting the sick or those in prison (Matt. 25:34-40)      
    7. offerings in support of the ministry (1Cor. 9:13)

 

Sounds pretty good!

Except this comment: "Was the LORD ever “pleased” with the blood of sheep and goats?  No."

This comment is incorrect, being immediately contradicted by Ps. 51:19.

 

blessings...

 

[BibleGuy]

18 hours ago, Resurrection Priest said:

BibleGuy,

You sited Deuteronomy 30:1-8 as "yet future" and a "proof" of the continuance of the Levite priesthood into the Kingdom of Messiah.

How so?  I can agree the promise was future, and is yet future, for "Israel" the Olive Tree of Romans Eleven (which was not about DNA, but rather about faith).  I don't see the Levites specifically mentioned in this passage. 

 

Thanks for asking!

Dt.30:1-8 states that the Israelites will again obey ALL (Heb. " כֹּל ", Dt. 30:8) God's commands....

And WHERE are God's commands found?  Answer:  The written Torah of Moses (1Ki.2:3).

Again, Dt. 30:1-8 refers to ALL the commands Moses is commanding that day....which includes virtually the entire book of Deuteronomy....which entails all the rest of the written Torah of Moses.

So, that's why Dt. 30:1-8 promises 100% restoration of 100% Torah-obedience....thus, Levitical Torah portions are included in that restoration.

 

blessings...

 

[BibleGuy]

17 hours ago, Resurrection Priest said:

BibleGuy,

Just curious.  How would the High Priest be chosen for the future literal physical Temple, with literal physical Levite priests? 

If Yeshua cannot be High Priest of the literal Temple because He is not Levite, then who would be High Priest?  Go back to Aaron?  Because he was first?  Phinehas?  Or to Zadok, because he was faithful?  Or possibly to the last descendant of the line?

It looks like only Zadok priests are allowed to "'come near Me to minister to Me; and they shall stand before Me to offer to Me the fat and the blood,' says the Lord GOD.  'They shall enter My sanctuary, and they shall come near  My table to minister to Me, and they shall keep My charge.'"   Ezekiel 44:15-16. 

Or is the whole prophecy symbolic - pointing forward to the work of the Melchizedek priests in the future Kingdom of Messiah.  In which case, Yeshua Messiah will be BOTH priest and prince  (and sin offering too). 

It is most interesting that "The alter was of wood".  "This is the table that is before the LORD"  Ezek 41:22.  This is the only article of furniture described in the "inner Temple".  [The cross was wood.]

I'm hardly an expert!  But clearly, one requirement includes lineage through Zadok (Eze.40:46;43:19;44:15;48:11).

And yes, I do NOT believe that Yeshua is a Levitical Priest....because He's not even a Levite! (as you know).  So, Yeshua would not be a Levitical priest (or high Levitical priest) in Ezekiel's temple.

 

"Or is the whole prophecy symbolic - pointing forward to the work of the Melchizedek priests in the future Kingdom of Messiah. "

That's a last-resort option.....if you start playing the "it's all symbolic" hermeneutics game, you quickly slide down the slippery slope of complete rejection of important Biblical truth....we don't want to go there.

So, don't get "metaphorical" or "symbolic" on me, unless you have good reasons to do so....

For example, if we could find contradictions between Ezekiel's temple service and Moses' Torah-sanctioned Levitical service, then that would be an INTERESTING problem....but I haven't gone that deep on this.

 

"In which case, Yeshua Messiah will be BOTH priest and prince  (and sin offering too)."

I don't believe Yeshua is the "prince" of Ezekiel's temple either, because Eze. 45:22 has the "prince" offering a sin-offering "for himself"....and Yeshua would not being doing such a thing, because Yeshua does not sin!

 

blessings...

 

 

[dhchristian]

Just now, BibleGuy said:

So, that's why Dt. 30:1-8 promises 100% restoration of 100% Torah-obedience....thus, Levitical Torah portions are included in that restoration.

This contradicts everything written in Hebrews 9-10

[BibleGuy]

2 hours ago, Resurrection Priest said:

I believe that every single Israelite in restored/redeemed/saved "Israel" WILL BE a Melchizedek priest.  Some of them will be individuals who were Levite priests in their former lives (before the Glorious Return). 

While they will be "priests", they will not function as Levite priests offering the blood of bulls and goats.  That system of "atonement by animal blood sacrament" is gone.  That system was a prophecy which meet it's fulfillment in Yeshua Messiah. 

"I believe that every single Israelite in restored/redeemed/saved "Israel" WILL BE a Melchizedek priest.  "

Interesting belief...but I don't see Scripture to support it.....

I don't think the "firstborn = Melchizedek" argument was convincing...(imo)

 

And restoration of LEVITICAL/CEREMONIAL/SACRIFICIAL Torah is confirmed by these passages: Jer.33;Eze.40-47;Mal.3:4;Dt.30:1-8;Zec.14;Is.66;Is.61.

 

"While they will be "priests", they will not function as Levite priests offering the blood of bulls and goats.  "

Can't see why you keep saying this....these Scriptures clearly confirm restoration of LEVITICAL/CEREMONIAL/SACRIFICIAL Torah: Jer.33;Eze.40-47;Mal.3:4;Dt.30:1-8;Zec.14;Is.66;Is.61.

 

"That system of "atonement by animal blood sacrament" is gone.  "

That system passes directly into the NEW Covenant (see " תּוֹרָה " in Jer.31:33).

The SAME Torah of Moses passes into the New Covenant.

NEW Covenant (Jer.31:31;Heb.8:8).

SAME Torah (Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10;10:16).

And that includes LEVITICAL/CEREMONIAL/SACRIFICIAL Torah....

 

Paul CONDONED sacrifice-laden Torah (Ac.21).

THOUSANDS of 1st-century Christians were zealous for all Torah (Ac.21:20), thus including sacrifices.

Some Christians were even animal-sacrificing priests! (Ac.6:7)

So, the 1st-century church clearly had no problem harmonizing 100% Torah-obedience with faith in the Messiah of Israel....

After all, the Messiah is LIKE UNTO MOSES (Dt. 18:15), so OF COURSE Yeshua will uphold all Torah just as Moses did.

Yeshua requires ALL Torah (Mt.5:19)....no exceptions for Levitical Torah portions there!

 

"  That system was a prophecy which meet it's fulfillment in Yeshua Messiah. "

But FULFILLED does not mean ABOLISHED (otherwise Mt.5:17 is a self-contradiction!)

And Jesus applies ALL Torah (Mt.5:19) to ALL disciples of ALL nations (given Mt. 28:19-20).

So that includes Levitical/ceremonial/sacrificial Torah too!

 

Sure, in our present diaspora, we can't obey 100% of all Torah.

But when Dt. 30:1-8 is fulfilled, then 100% of ALL Torah will again be obeyed by the Israelites.

 

blessings...

 

[BibleGuy]

2 hours ago, Still Alive said:

A worthwhile read: https://drmsh.com/hebrew-roots-movement/

 

And his podcast transcript on it: https://nakedbiblepodcast.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/NB-173-Transcript.pdf

Thanks for the links!

Heiser's reliance upon Chris Putnam, though, is a GOOD sign that Heiser has NOT done his research.

Good Torah-based Christian scholars include J.K.Mckee and Tim Hegg....that's a MUCH better place to start.....not Heiser.

Putnam's arguments are weak (and easily refuted)....

Let's talk about it!

blessings...

[BibleGuy]

14 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

This contradicts everything written in Hebrews 9-10

Not at all...

Heb. 10:16 says that we obey TORAH in the NEW Covenant (quoting Jer. 31:33).

And Torah is Torah!  ALL the Torah of Moses!

blessings...

[dhchristian]

1 hour ago, BibleGuy said:

Not at all...

Heb. 10:16 says that we obey TORAH in the NEW Covenant (quoting Jer. 31:33).

And Torah is Torah!  ALL the Torah of Moses!

blessings...

Christ is our sacrifice once for all. Obviously you did not read the passages. Here let me quote you some.

But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? (Hebrews 9:11-14)

For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. (9:24-28)

For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and , not the very image of the things,can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. For then would they not have ceased to bnot the very image of the thingse offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. (10:1-10)

So my question for you is do you believe in the blood of Jesus as the only sacrifice we need? Or do you like having a yearly remembrance of Sin made and never have your sins taken away? That is the difference between the Old and the New Covenant. In fact the Prophets of Old confirm this And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith the LORD, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of the LORD: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit it; neither shall that be done any more. (Jer. 3;16) 

If there is no more Ark of the covenant there is no more mercy seat upon which to sprinkle the Blood of bulls and Goats. 

To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats. When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts? Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them. And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood. Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil; (Isa 1;11-17)

You of course are welcome to do them but they are empty of the power they once had. The Torah cannot save you nor can it take your sins away only Christ Jesus can by abiding in the vine.