Guest Ahdiba Posted June 9, 2005 Share Posted June 9, 2005 Well, Shimshon, I am new to this site but not new to your statements. You have your beliefs; I have mine. I did not come here to try to change yours, and mine shall not change. Shall I, after all, diminish my freedom to enjoy the biblical traditions in order to please others who see them as bondage? Regardless, at no point have I written that works are salvific; all we who are parents know that works are indicative of obedience, and obedience is indicative of love. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shimshon Posted June 9, 2005 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 143 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 4 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/13/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 06/05/1967 Share Posted June 9, 2005 Well, Shimshon, I am new to this site but not new to your statements.  You have your beliefs; I have mine. I did not come here to try to change yours, and mine shall not change. Shall I, after all, diminish my freedom to enjoy the biblical traditions in order to please others who see them as bondage? Regardless, at no point have I written that works are salvific; all we who are parents know that works are indicative of obedience, and obedience is indicative of love. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Well my friend, I am not the one trying to change people in to the image of Messiah, He is doing this himself. And I agree, our beliefs are just that, ours. But as far as the reference to bondage. It is not my own view that they are bondage, but it is written in scripture. It is what people inspired by the Holy Spirit said about these very things. Again, you have not responded to how you deal with Hebrews 7:12. Regardless, as well, I am not trying to change you. I am only witnessing the Good News as was done by the Apostles. We can agree to disagree, I won't be offended. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted June 9, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.76 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.95 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted June 9, 2005 If I may interject a thought? Yeshua said the greatest commands were to love God and love your neighbor, and that these two summed up all of the Law (Torah) and the Prophets, correct? So, when I read the commands of God, I look at it in light of Love - how is this an expression of loving God or loving my neighbor? As I read this way, I do see how in all those commands and rituals they do show expressions of love. So, the Torah teaches us how to love God and to love our neighbor. But the desire of the Lord is to have the Law written on our hearts - that is, we don't have to run to the written word to know how to express love, but it will be in our nature to love, and therefore we will automatically do those things that express love to God and love to one another. Ideally. Unfortunately, even born-again, spirit-filled believers have immaturties and insecurities we need to overcome that keep us from living this way truly (notice how many Christians get defensive when confronted of wrong-doing rather than to respond with humility?). No, we are not to be "bound to the Law," but in a lot of ways, following those things might not be a bad idea to help you overcome the old nature and your own insecurities and such. Just a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shimshon Posted June 9, 2005 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 143 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 4 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/13/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 06/05/1967 Share Posted June 9, 2005 Mt 13:52 He said to them, "So then, every Torah-teacher who has been made into a talmid for the Kingdom of Heaven is like the owner of a home who brings out of his storage room both new things and old." agreed, scripture is 'good', for many many things. One should not think themselves as David and dance completely naked, outside the law. We are not 'uncovered', Yeshua is our cover, our shabbat. He is our image. But, once God bound up all people under sin. Now we are released from this bondage, not to live in sin, but to live in union with Messiah. We are not free from our Master, no he is covering us by his grace and mercy. But we are free from the Torah of sin and death, the shadow of things that were to come and have. Avraham is no longer a lone man, Yisrael is no longer a land locked physical nation, she is a world wide Body of Messiah. We are no longer spiritually bound under Torah of Moshe as Yitzak was physically bound, under Torah given Avraham. But, just as Yitzak was STILL a son of Avraham and of Yeshua and his promise. So too are we still sons of God and of Yeshua and his promise, though we are freed from the bondage that God bound us with. We bring out old and new things from the store house of his goodness. Yet, we do not walk in old AND new covenants at once. David didn't build a Temple and maintain the mishkan in Shiloh.....He built a Temple that fulfilled the Mishkan, that fulfilled the words spoken to Adamah and Avraham. Was the mishkan in Shiloh less holy than the Temple David built in Yerushalayim? No, it was just as holy. Only a more clear representation of the True fulfilment, our bodies. We are the Temple of God where he dwells on earth. Does that mean we throw away the other revealations? No, we still love them as we love the memories of our childhood. But do we live the way we did when we were little? No, but we are still the same person we were then, only more revealed. More 'matured' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angels4u Posted June 9, 2005 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 56 Topic Count: 1,664 Topics Per Day: 0.20 Content Count: 19,764 Content Per Day: 2.39 Reputation: 12,164 Days Won: 28 Joined: 08/22/2001 Status: Offline Share Posted June 9, 2005 Grace---wonderful grace What could we do without grace? Angels Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ahdiba Posted June 10, 2005 Share Posted June 10, 2005 Well my friend, I am not the one trying to change people in to the image of Messiah, He is doing this himself. And I agree, our beliefs are just that, ours. But as far as the reference to bondage. It is not my own view that they are bondage, but it is written in scripture. It is what people inspired by the Holy Spirit said about these very things. Again, you have not responded to how you deal with Hebrews 7:12. Regardless, as well, I am not trying to change you. I am only witnessing the Good News as was done by the Apostles. We can agree to disagree, I won't be offended. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> My dear Shimshon, I did respond to your question about Hebrews 7:12. You either did not understand my response, or you did not like it. So I have some questions, Shimshon. 1. What will you do with the Scriptures in which Yeshua clearly says that none of the Torah will pass away until both heaven and earth pass away and that those who annul one of the least of the commandments and teaches others to do the same shall be called least in the kingdom? 2. What shall we do with the fact that there is no Scripture which says that the Torah has been annulled? 3. What shall we do with the fact that the Scriptures give me the freedom to continue doing the mitzvot, while bluntly, what you have written is saying that I am wrong to do so, even though I have written to you that they are neither salvific nor do they make me holy? 4. Do you not understand that everyone who has ever been accepted by G-d was accepted only through the Calvary sacrifice and resurrection, nothing else, and certainly not by sacrifices? 5. Do you not understand that grace always was, that no one was saved without grace, and that it remains a requirement for salvation? 6. Why would Yeshua, who says that He remains the same, decide to change what He had authored in Torah -- or do you not believe He is the Word, the Author? I noticed that you called the Torah the "law of Moses"; do you believe he authored it? If so, then Yeshua is not the Author? How is He, then, the Word? All things were made by Him and without Him, nothing was made -- even Torah. 7. Why did the apostles, whom you say changed the Torah, or taught against Torah, or abolished Torah -- however you put it -- tell Sha'ul in Acts to do the mitzvot of the Nazarite vow, and to pay for the young men to do it as well, when this requires a sacrifice, the work he was to pay for at the Temple? Were they mistaken? Were the apostles and Sha'ul confused or just wishy-washy? I ask you these things, because if you are right, they need answers. __________________________________________ Hi, Nebula. I like your name. You wrote: But the desire of the Lord is to have the Law written on our hearts - that is, we don't have to run to the written word to know how to express love, but it will be in our nature to love, and therefore we will automatically do those things that express love to God and love to one another. Ideally. But don't you just love to run to the Word, to study it, to just drink it in and learn? It is a wonderfully mysterious book, yet open to one who studies it. Unfortunately, even born-again, spirit-filled believers have immaturties and insecurities we need to overcome that keep us from living this way truly (notice how many Christians get defensive when confronted of wrong-doing rather than to respond with humility?). No, we are not to be "bound to the Law," but in a lot of ways, following those things might not be a bad idea to help you overcome the old nature and your own insecurities and such. No, I am not bound by the Torah, but I love it and enjoy all its benefits. Just as in those of old, it is the grace of G-d and the sacrifice of His Son that does the work that saves. I have been a believer since 1963, and yes, I have seen much immaturity and things I would not like to admit in myself, but the time comes when the old nature is somewhat held at bay and sin has no attraction. But it wasn't 1984 (hey! A book title! ) when my insecurities in Him were pretty-well abolished, and I settled into His comfort. That year initiated a huge change in my life. Oh, it is not that I suddenly became angelic (ha-ha!) or anything; it is just that I settled it all with Him, walking away from the things that caused my insecurities in Him. He is SO GOOD! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shimshon Posted June 10, 2005 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 143 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 4 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/13/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 06/05/1967 Share Posted June 10, 2005 Well my friend, I am not the one trying to change people in to the image of Messiah, He is doing this himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted June 10, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.76 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.95 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted June 10, 2005 Hi, Nebula. I like your name. Thank-you! (I love astronomy!! ) But don't you just love to run to the Word, to study it, to just drink it in and learn?  It is a wonderfully mysterious book, yet open to one who studies it. Of course!  No, I am not bound by the Torah, but I love it and enjoy all its benefits. Just as in those of old, it is the grace of G-d and the sacrifice of His Son that does the work that saves. . . . So, do I understand correctly that you follow the Torah as your expression od love? Cool with me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted June 10, 2005 Share Posted June 10, 2005 I would just like to make a point about Hebrews 7:12 and the "changing of the Torah." It is similar to 2 Cor. 3, in that what "changed" was how the law was administered. The Torah had to be modified to account for the coming of Messiah. Hebrews is using the sacrificial system, and particular the sin sacrifice to make the point that Messiah is the final sin sacrifice. The sacrificial system was not "abolished" or done away with. It was modified (changed). It makes the Old system obsolete. We still need a Hight Priest to make intercession for us, we still need blood and we still need a Lamb to be sacrificed in our stead. Jesus is the Lamb, it is His blood shed for us, and He is also the High Priest. The verse is not addressing other issues related to Torah observance. Many have used that verse as a proof text to abrogate the Shabbat, the Festivals, etc., but that is not the point the writer of Hebrews was making. His point was that since the Priesthood changed from the order of Aaron to Melchizedek, then the law regarding the priesthood would also change. So in short, the law was not changed in toto, but only the laws regarding the priesthood changed with emergence of the better and higher order of Melchizedek. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shimshon Posted June 10, 2005 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 143 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 4 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/13/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 06/05/1967 Share Posted June 10, 2005 Agreed Shiloh, hence the usage of the term by David Stern of "Transformed". I like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts