"Turn or Burn" Is Not My Gospel

[Michael (limmuwd)]

43 minutes ago, Blood Bought 1953 said:

As always, verses that appear to show Believers can lose their Place in the Kingdom are either taken out of context or they are verses not being addressed to the Body Of Christ.The context is  Paul is upset that Believers are letting Unbelievers decide legal cases between Church Members.He is saying “ why do you let thieves, adulterers ,homosexuals,the greedy,etc judge your lawsuits?He reminds his audience of saved Believers that they USED to act this way.BUT this group of Paul’s has been “made righteous”, they have been washed clean by the name of Jesus and they all importantly are indwelled by the Holy Spirit.The first group were terrible sinners- unrighteousness. The second group was not an elite group of non- sinners.They were redeemed sinners saved by their faith in Christ alone- the essential thing that all the thieves, liars,homosexuals ,etc lacked.Newbies ALWAYS remember to check out context and who is being addressed when faced with disheartening verses,that raise doubts.Properly Divide Scripture.

Newbies? It's actually so many who were "saved" years ago who have become comfortable in their walk, enjoy their life in the world too much and fail to press in to know the Lord and God's purpose for their life. Sadly, some of these will be found to have failed to use their talents, learn to discern between good and evil and have become tolerant and lukewarm. These will no inherit the promises. I have seen many who began well (yes, they were without a doubt saved), yet turned aside to the left or right, fell from grace and shrunk back unto destruction. I praise God that, through the trials & tribulations, the mistakes and humbling experiences, I have continued on the path with Jesus for over 20 years now. I quickly grew past the false "easy grace" teaching and have been able to spot such heretical, deceptive doctrines such as the Faith & Prosperity, and eternal security, and rapture messages. 

Whenever I teach or share, I encourage my listeners to read the passages in context, for ALL of the epistles of the NT, and nearly  every book in the OT were written specifically to warn God's people about the dangers of disobedience, getting comfortable or taking Him for granted. 

[Blood Bought 1953]

18 minutes ago, Michael (limmuwd) said:

Newbies? It's actually so many who were "saved" years ago who have become comfortable in their walk, enjoy their life in the world too much and fail to press in to know the Lord and God's purpose for their life. Sadly, some of these will be found to have failed to use their talents, learn to discern between good and evil and have become tolerant and lukewarm. These will no inherit the promises. I have seen many who began well (yes, they were without a doubt saved), yet turned aside to the left or right, fell from grace and shrunk back unto destruction. I praise God that, through the trials & tribulations, the mistakes and humbling experiences, I have continued on the path with Jesus for over 20 years now. I quickly grew past the false "easy grace" teaching and have been able to spot such heretical, deceptive doctrines such as the Faith & Prosperity, and eternal security, and rapture messages. 

Whenever I teach or share, I encourage my listeners to read the passages in context, for ALL of the epistles of the NT, and nearly  every book in the OT were written specifically to warn God's people about the dangers of disobedience, getting comfortable or taking Him for granted. 

 

I agree about the warnings.....I give my daughter warnings all of the time.....sometimes she heeds my warnings, sometimes she does not.....guess who pays the price for disobedience? If you tell a young child to not touch the stove and she disagrees and gets burned,hopefully she will learn from her mistake and perhaps listen the next time.Perhaps.Being molded by God into the image of His Son can be painful.Its up to the individual to be wise or foolish.If we get too comfortable in our walk or take Him for granted, God knows how to deal with it.Salvation is still secure if you have put your faith in the Blood alone to get you saved

  “ Falling from Grace” is probably the+biggest problem in the Church in any time period. But you don’t understand what it is.Please read Gal5 to understand that falling from grace means to add your good works to the simple Gospel Of Grace in 1Cor15:1-4. People say Jesus Saves and then turn right around and start doing things or giving up things to KEEP themselves saved.One foot in Grace.....the other one in Law.Grace is what saves us and trying to keep the Law for Salvation cancels that Grace.One becomes “ severed from Christ”........ if they try to add Commandment Keeping, tithing,church attendance or anything else to the Gospel.All of these things are good but don’t try to say they have to be added to the precious Blood of Jesus to be saved.They do not compare and It is an insult to try to use them as an addition.

 

Edited May 17, 2019 by Blood Bought 1953

[Michael (limmuwd)]

24 minutes ago, Blood Bought 1953 said:

  “ Falling from Grace” is probably the+biggest problem in the Church in any time period. But you don’t understand what it is.Please read Gal5 to understand that falling from grace means to add your good works to the simple Gospel Of Grace in 1Cor15:1-4. People say Jesus Saves and then turn right around and start doing things or giving up things to KEEP themselves saved.One foot in Grace.....the other one in Law.Grace is what saves us and trying to keep the Law for Salvation cancels that Grace.One becomes “ severed from Christ”........ if they try to add Commandment Keeping, tithing,church attendance or anything else to the Gospel.All of these things are good but don’t try to say they have to be added to the precious Blood of Jesus to be saved.They do not compare and It is an insult to try to use them as an addition.

 

Thanks for your reply and your point of view of doctrine. 

However, as I see it, one of the biggest problems in the church today is that most seem to believe that "getting saved" is the end, and guarantees Heaven when we die, based solely on what Jesus did.  I have asked many times over the years for a single verse that says 'getting saved means we go to heaven when we die.' I have never received a single reply that included clear verses that state that. Why? Because it is not Biblical. Seriously. 

Again, Paul & Peter & Jude specifically point out that our journey is as Israel in the wilderness. They were saved, baptized, were following the Lord and had partaken of Christ, yet their carcasses were strewn in the desert, because they refused to repent and obey. I can confidently say, "thus says the Lord" when I state that if we "saved" folks, who have confessed the Name of the Lord... if we do not obey the commands of God given through Christ, if we do not repent and turn from our sins and love not our lives to the death, and prove our faith by our works... we will not inherit the Kingdom. It is as simple as that. Sin and disobedience will separate us from God. I have several clear verses on that. And, as has been mentioned here in this thread many times... anything that we believe and teach MUST be backed up by the canon of Scripture. 

Peace.

[Blood Bought 1953]

2 hours ago, Firm Foundation said:

You are still overlooking this passage Bloodbought.  How can chastisement or early death be worse than eternity in hell?  

 

 

In this world of anxiety and fear, it is a radical thing to proclaim the eternal security of the believer: One with the Lord, your future is the same as his. No one can snatch you from his hand; nothing can separate you from his love.

Yet every time I say things like this, someone will point to 2 Peter 2 as though this one chapter could undo the many promises of God and make Christ’s saving work of no effect.

“Peter describes Christians who forsook the Lord and were condemned,” they say. “So much for once saved, always saved.”

Hardly a month goes by when I don’t have occasion to talk about 2 Peter 2. In this chapter, Peter warns about false teachers who deny the Lord and teach heresy. Let there be no doubt he is not referring to Christians. These people are slaves of depravity (v.19) who never stop sinning (v.14). They are not saints but brute beasts who are condemned to perish (v.12).

But were these sinners once saints? Were they Christians who lost the way, and fell beyond the reach of grace?

This is an important question, because if they were once saved, then you can lose your salvation. Just as these false teachers were doomed to reap “swift destruction,” you too could be headed for hell – if you don’t take care.

Is Peter talking about backslidden Christians?

According to nearly every commentary I have read, the answer is yes. “These were genuine Christians who turned their back on God and will now get a worse punishment than the one who never met Jesus.”

Oh happy day.

Even certain grace teachers are convinced that Peter is describing former Christians who are now damned. But were these people ever saved? At first glance, the evidence seems clear enough, for Peter says these false teachers:

– have left the right way and gone astray (v.15)
– have escaped the defilements of the world only to become entangled again (v.20)
– once knew the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ (v.20) and the way of righteousness (v.21)
– have returned to the muck like a pig (v.22)

So there you have it. Close your Bibles and get busy working out your salvation because if you don’t stay on the right way you’re doomed, like these guys. “Blackest darkness is reserved for them” (v.17). And for you too, if you’re not careful.

And yet, don’t you find it interesting that Peter never says, “Be warned, dear friends, what happened to them could happen to you”? He never says it because it can’t happen. The very idea that our sins could outlast God’s grace is absurd.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: You may shipwreck your faith, and go astray, but your heavenly Father will never abandon or forsake you. What the Lord begins he finishes.

So how do we read 2 Peter 2?

The key to unlocking this passage is Balaam:

They (the false teachers) have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Bezer, who loved the wages of wickedness. (2 Peter 2:15)

Balaam the prophet was recruited by the king of Moab to curse the children of Israel (Numbers 22-24). But after encountering the Lord three times – one encounter famously involved a talking donkey and an angel – Balaam blessed the children of Israel.

Unfortunately for Balaam, that wasn’t the end of the story.

The Moabite king was furious that Balaam had not done what he asked. So Balaam, perhaps realizing he was about to be sent home empty-handed, taught the king how to defeat Israel (Rev 2:14). Long story short, the men of Israel were seduced by Moabite women and turned away from the Lord (Num 25:1-3). They were on the doorstep of the Promised Land yet they almost never entered, all because of greedy Balaam.

In the end, the Israelites repented and pressed on to Canaan. And on the way they killed the false prophet Balaam who had done them so much harm (Num 31:8).

When Peter says, “These false teachers are just like Balaam,” he’s saying they are on the wrong side of God. “By perverting the gospel, they are trying to curse what God has blessed. And like Balaam, they will come to a bad end.”

With this key in hand, we can now unlock the difficult verses of 2 Peter 2.

Who are the followers of Balaam?

Verse 15: They have forsaken the right way, and gone astray, following the way of Balaam who loved the wages of unrighteousness…

Peter is not describing Christians but people who have known the right way – as Balaam did – and rejected it. Balaam had a personal encounter with the Lord. He heard God speak and he knew his heart. But when the money was put on the table, Balaam made the wrong choice. He opposed what God was doing, just as false teachers do whenever they pervert the gospel.

Verse 20: For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.

Balaam initially stood up to the king of Moab, yet he never aligned himself with the Lord. His behavior was strange: If the Israelites were as blessed as he said, why not join them? Why stay with the cursed king of Moab?

The prophet was like those Hebrews who escaped the defilements of Egypt but did not enter the Promised Land. They came out but never went in. They died in the wilderness on account of unbelief.

Verse 21: For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.

The one who rejects the way of righteousness (the gospel) is worse off than the one who has not heard it because he has hardened his heart to that which could save him. He has refused the Lord’s holy command to “repent and believe the good news” (see 1 John 3:23).

I hope you can see that a follower of Balaam is not a follower of Jesus. It is someone who has heard and rejected the gospel. They’ve had an encounter with the Lord but turned their back. They’ve tasted the bread of life and spat it out. They have not responded with faith to the grace of God.

Verse 22: It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A dog returns to its own vomit,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.”

A Christian is not a dog or a pig! A. A washed sow remains a sow, but a Christian is a brand new creation.

If you don’t know about your union with Christ, you may fall for the lie that says you can lose your salvation. You may even think that Peter is describing condemned Christians.

Fear not; there’s no such thing.

[thomas t]

8 hours ago, Firm Foundation said:

Did you ever read the Sermon on the mount, by Jesus Christ himself and his other teachings?

Hi Firm,

yes I did.

8 hours ago, Firm Foundation said:

Jesus gave many repent or burn messages.

As to the turn-or-burn message in Mt 5, which is a part of the Sermon on the Mount, Michael gave a perfect answer to this:

17 hours ago, Michael (limmuwd) said:

God expects non-believers to sin. He commands those whom have been enlightened to actually "turn from their wicked ways." It is "saved" people who face greater punishment for their willful  sin than do those in the world who commit the same acts. 

"that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more."
- Luke 12:47-48

this being said...

I'm against slapping "burn"-messages in other people's faces before the slightest misconduct is apparent. I'm against the "you're a non-believer? BECOME FAITHFUL OR BURN IN HELL!"-mindset.

Jesus didn't do that in Mt 5.

Regards,

Thomas

[Firm Foundation]

4 hours ago, Blood Bought 1953 said:

 

 

In this world of anxiety and fear, it is a radical thing to proclaim the eternal security of the believer: One with the Lord, your future is the same as his. No one can snatch you from his hand; nothing can separate you from his love.

Yet every time I say things like this, someone will point to 2 Peter 2 as though this one chapter could undo the many promises of God and make Christ’s saving work of no effect.

“Peter describes Christians who forsook the Lord and were condemned,” they say. “So much for once saved, always saved.”

Hardly a month goes by when I don’t have occasion to talk about 2 Peter 2. In this chapter, Peter warns about false teachers who deny the Lord and teach heresy. Let there be no doubt he is not referring to Christians. These people are slaves of depravity (v.19) who never stop sinning (v.14). They are not saints but brute beasts who are condemned to perish (v.12).

But were these sinners once saints? Were they Christians who lost the way, and fell beyond the reach of grace?

This is an important question, because if they were once saved, then you can lose your salvation. Just as these false teachers were doomed to reap “swift destruction,” you too could be headed for hell – if you don’t take care.

Is Peter talking about backslidden Christians?

According to nearly every commentary I have read, the answer is yes. “These were genuine Christians who turned their back on God and will now get a worse punishment than the one who never met Jesus.”

Oh happy day.

Even certain grace teachers are convinced that Peter is describing former Christians who are now damned. But were these people ever saved? At first glance, the evidence seems clear enough, for Peter says these false teachers:

– have left the right way and gone astray (v.15)
– have escaped the defilements of the world only to become entangled again (v.20)
– once knew the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ (v.20) and the way of righteousness (v.21)
– have returned to the muck like a pig (v.22)

So there you have it. Close your Bibles and get busy working out your salvation because if you don’t stay on the right way you’re doomed, like these guys. “Blackest darkness is reserved for them” (v.17). And for you too, if you’re not careful.

And yet, don’t you find it interesting that Peter never says, “Be warned, dear friends, what happened to them could happen to you”? He never says it because it can’t happen. The very idea that our sins could outlast God’s grace is absurd.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: You may shipwreck your faith, and go astray, but your heavenly Father will never abandon or forsake you. What the Lord begins he finishes.

So how do we read 2 Peter 2?

The key to unlocking this passage is Balaam:

They (the false teachers) have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Bezer, who loved the wages of wickedness. (2 Peter 2:15)

Balaam the prophet was recruited by the king of Moab to curse the children of Israel (Numbers 22-24). But after encountering the Lord three times – one encounter famously involved a talking donkey and an angel – Balaam blessed the children of Israel.

Unfortunately for Balaam, that wasn’t the end of the story.

The Moabite king was furious that Balaam had not done what he asked. So Balaam, perhaps realizing he was about to be sent home empty-handed, taught the king how to defeat Israel (Rev 2:14). Long story short, the men of Israel were seduced by Moabite women and turned away from the Lord (Num 25:1-3). They were on the doorstep of the Promised Land yet they almost never entered, all because of greedy Balaam.

In the end, the Israelites repented and pressed on to Canaan. And on the way they killed the false prophet Balaam who had done them so much harm (Num 31:8).

When Peter says, “These false teachers are just like Balaam,” he’s saying they are on the wrong side of God. “By perverting the gospel, they are trying to curse what God has blessed. And like Balaam, they will come to a bad end.”

With this key in hand, we can now unlock the difficult verses of 2 Peter 2.

Who are the followers of Balaam?

Verse 15: They have forsaken the right way, and gone astray, following the way of Balaam who loved the wages of unrighteousness…

Peter is not describing Christians but people who have known the right way – as Balaam did – and rejected it. Balaam had a personal encounter with the Lord. He heard God speak and he knew his heart. But when the money was put on the table, Balaam made the wrong choice. He opposed what God was doing, just as false teachers do whenever they pervert the gospel.

Verse 20: For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.

Balaam initially stood up to the king of Moab, yet he never aligned himself with the Lord. His behavior was strange: If the Israelites were as blessed as he said, why not join them? Why stay with the cursed king of Moab?

The prophet was like those Hebrews who escaped the defilements of Egypt but did not enter the Promised Land. They came out but never went in. They died in the wilderness on account of unbelief.

Verse 21: For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.

The one who rejects the way of righteousness (the gospel) is worse off than the one who has not heard it because he has hardened his heart to that which could save him. He has refused the Lord’s holy command to “repent and believe the good news” (see 1 John 3:23).

I hope you can see that a follower of Balaam is not a follower of Jesus. It is someone who has heard and rejected the gospel. They’ve had an encounter with the Lord but turned their back. They’ve tasted the bread of life and spat it out. They have not responded with faith to the grace of God.

Verse 22: It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A dog returns to its own vomit,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.”

A Christian is not a dog or a pig! A. A washed sow remains a sow, but a Christian is a brand new creation.

If you don’t know about your union with Christ, you may fall for the lie that says you can lose your salvation. You may even think that Peter is describing condemned Christians.

Fear not; there’s no such thing.

This makes no sense, because Baalam and those who only heard the right way and rejected it had never been washed clean.  That is why all those people and commentaries that say these were once Christians are right.  This is an example of getting very creative with the text to make it agree with something that is false, osas.  

[Firm Foundation]

2 hours ago, thomas t said:

Hi Firm,

yes I did.

As to the turn-or-burn message in Mt 5, which is a part of the Sermon on the Mount, Michael gave a perfect answer to this:

this being said...

I'm against slapping "burn"-messages in other people's faces before the slightest misconduct is apparent. I'm against the "you're a non-believer? BECOME FAITHFUL OR BURN IN HELL!"-mindset.

Jesus didn't do that in Mt 5.

Regards,

Thomas

You are against it why?  

[warrior12]

6 hours ago, Michael (limmuwd) said:

Newbies? It's actually so many who were "saved" years ago who have become comfortable in their walk, enjoy their life in the world too much and fail to press in to know the Lord and God's purpose for their life. Sadly, some of these will be found to have failed to use their talents, learn to discern between good and evil and have become tolerant and lukewarm. These will no inherit the promises. I have seen many who began well (yes, they were without a doubt saved), yet turned aside to the left or right, fell from grace and shrunk back unto destruction. I praise God that, through the trials & tribulations, the mistakes and humbling experiences, I have continued on the path with Jesus for over 20 years now. I quickly grew past the false "easy grace" teaching and have been able to spot such heretical, deceptive doctrines such as the Faith & Prosperity, and eternal security, and rapture messages. 

Whenever I teach or share, I encourage my listeners to read the passages in context, for ALL of the epistles of the NT, and nearly  every book in the OT were written specifically to warn God's people about the dangers of disobedience, getting comfortable or taking Him for granted. 

Romans 6 has to read in its entirety to really understand what happens when a man is saved.   It is not just walking up to the alter and repeating a prayer of confession of sins, but something that took place in the heart.   Believers, believe in their hearts and confess with their tongue that Jesus Christ is Lord and that he died for their sins.  They now see the sin nature that they have within and the one who paid for those sins.  It is spelled out in Roman.  Sin has no more dominion over you.  You are now a spiritual warrior as you now know the truth and reality of the host of wickedness that are perpetrators of evil and who does his manipulations or play with your mind to  get you back into his world.   Now, when you resist the reality of the gospel come to light as you hear and read of the written word.

The issue that separates man from God is "unbelief that Jesus is Lord".   Once a man has been granted that grace, he would go through the trials of life that the devil and his dominion would put him through for  him to come back.  Since he now knows the truth and that he is loved and his sins we paid for, he strives to follow the Lord and his heart is converted to follow the word.  There is no  turning back, this is the believer.  His burdens are at the Lord feet and he rest in his mercies and this is what is meant by saving grace in short.

How do you interpret Romans 7 and Paul struggle as a believer.  Why did he wrote that ?. Yes, as you say rightly, context has to be read and examined as to the whole statement.

Romans 6 King James Version (KJV)

¹⁴ For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

¹⁵ What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

¹⁶ Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

¹⁷ But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

¹⁸ Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

 

[Still Alive]

16 hours ago, Melinda12 said:

Most likely yes in my view. All who deliberately reject Christ are condemning themselves. Jesus makes it very clear. 

Actually, Jesus spoke of the lost as I would speak to throwing an old, worthless newspaper into the campfire. And I said "newspaper", not spoon. A spoon will just sit there and never be consumed. The newspaper goes up in a flash. I think Satan is a spoon.

[Still Alive]

14 hours ago, Neighbor said:

 I have no need nor desire of any links to  explanations of possible fablism in the Bible. God has had me live too much of it's consequence so that I would recognize it's truth, and has shown me the truth of it from day one of His reveal of my Lord God and savior Jesus.

 

I'm no talking about fableism's in the bible and I'm not talking about completely rewording everything. It's more along the lines of my tagline. And there really are multiple interpretations of much of what we read in the bible. It is key to understand where the writers were coming from. For example, the writers of Genesis believed the earth was a flat circle and held up by pillars. God did not choose to give them modern cosmological lanugage about it, because it wasn't written to us. It was written to the people of the day - a pre-scientific world. God wanted them to understand it, not be overwhelmed with scientific knowledge. 

So it says what it says because the point it is making is that Yahweh created the heavens and the earth.  Just like what is in my tagline really just says that Jesus told peter that before the day was out, peter would deny him multiple times. That is the point, not how many roosters crowed.

And a valid translation of Genesis 1-3 is this:

"When God began to create the heavens and the earth, And the earth was desolate and empty, and darkness was upon the face of the deep, and the spirit /wind of God was hovering over the waters - then God said, “let there be light.” And there was light."

So, one can get all wrapped around the axle about the details of what it said, timing, etc., or one can say, "The beginning of the ages as written about in the OT started with God creating the reality we enjoy."

Was the earth already here in some form? Doesn't matter. And the word used to describe "create" is used when he created Adam and when he created Eve. Neither were created from "nothing". They were created from something that already existed. 

The key is to not be MARRIED and DOGMATIC about beliefs that, at the end of the day are questionable interpretations of the bible. When we study it and have the holy spirit guiding us, we can get the message of God without judging him because of stuff that misses the point. This is especially important when discussing it with people who are hostile to the message, which I find myself doing quite a bit. If I debate with them based on the premise that the bible can be taken literally, I'll get chewed up and spit out. I don't play that game. 

Edited May 17, 2019 by Still Alive