Sin, Salvation, Grace

[Kansasdad]

No problem, but could I add that I am dissappointed you did not wrestle with the scriptures I sited. That seems to be a common thread here when I have discussions with Catholics. They are more than willing to have me respond to scriptures they raise, but don't seem quite a willing to reciprocate.

That is dissapointing

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[EricH]

No problem, but could I add that I am dissappointed you did not wrestle with the scriptures I sited. That seems to be a common thread here when I have discussions with Catholics. They are more than willing to have me respond to scriptures they raise, but don't seem quite a willing to reciprocate.

That is dissapointing

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No problem Eric, I will happily do just that. Please don't catagorise me with "other"posters I am uniquely me. It will take me some time though, So please allow me that, I do have many many constraints on my time.

Brothers in Christ:

Kansas Dad

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[tsth]

Dear Eric,

My post is in response to the following verse and the way that you are interpreting it. I believe that because of the misunderstanding of the working of grace, you misinterpret the passages.

As I have posted in the previous, the passages describe grace, as the God-given gift and power to overcome sin, through belief in Jesus and the power of His victory over death itself, there is nothing that cannot be overcome now. Thereby if you sin willfully after having received the knowledge of the Truth of His power, you are insulting the Spirit of Grace. You are proclaiming His power in you to overcome sin, as ineffective, and thereby proclaiming the power of God, a lie. Please go back and examine the Power of His Grace! See my previous posting and the passages given.

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

In His Love,

Suzanne

[EricH]

Dear Eric,

My post is in response to the following verse and the way that you are interpreting it.

[tsth]

No, that was merely a response in discouragement. I knew that you weren't going to agree nor understand it, before you posted. As I have mentioned the topic of grace in other discussions and felt dismissed by you. That's ok, I would just hope that you would go back and see the passages I posted "in context" with the term of grace. It is in agreement with Scripture, especially if you study Paul and what he came to understand about grace. Grace is SOMETHING to be grasped, it makes obedience possible. It is the power that embodies obedience.

It is given through Jesus.

Romans 1:4 and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead. 5 Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for His name,

Eph. 1:17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, 18 the eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power 20 which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places,

1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

I hope you would go back and examine the passages I posted previously to see if they are describing the power of grace to work in us and set us free from sin.

In His Love,

Suzanne

[Kansasdad]

quote=EricH,Jun 10 2005, 03:45 PM]

Here are some passages for you to wrestle with if you care to:

For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

Please give me the chaper and verse so I can get the whole context

John 6:38-40

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand. "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

This verse is your strongest argument and does seem to contradict Hebrews 10:26... Lets pray about this and see what is revealed.

John 10:27-29

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

In the example from Hebrews that "saved" peson chose to leave God so he is no longer in Christ

Romans 8:1

In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation-- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.

I don't see how this addresses loosing one's salvation

Ephesians 1:13-15

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time

I have no problem with God causing us to be re-born or that he has a spot reserved in heaven, or that heaven is imperishable and undefiled. This does not preclude that we can choose to live apart from God, and thus it is through our choices that we reject Gods salvation.

1 Peter 1:3-5

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, that no one should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Faith without Works is dead and it is through faith that we receive his grace. If we have no works, we have no faith, if we have no faith we have no grace. No, we cannot work our way into heaven it is only because of his grace that we are able to obtain heaven. However our faith will be judged, and it will be judged by our works. So the question then becomes can a person loose their faith. "Faith without Works is dead" would suggest that Faith can die, and without faith we can not receive the Grace of God

Ephesians 2:8-10

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[EricH]

No, that was merely a response in discouragement.  I knew that you weren't going to agree nor understand it, before you posted.  As I have mentioned the topic of grace in other discussions and felt dismissed by you.  That's ok,  I would just hope that you would go back and see the passages I posted "in context" with the term of grace.  It is in agreement with Scripture, especially if you study Paul and what he came to understand about grace.  Grace is SOMETHING to be grasped, it makes obedience possible.  It is the power that embodies obedience.

It is given through Jesus.

Romans 1:4 and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead. 5 Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for His name,

Eph. 1:17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, 18 the eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power 20 which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places,

1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

I hope you would go back and examine the passages I posted previously to see if they are describing the power of grace to work in us and set us free from sin.

In His Love,

Suzanne

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I agree with you that God does give us the grace to obey. Where I disagree is that everytime the term grace is used it carries this meaning with it. Grace is simply unmeritied favor. For instance:

"For by grace you have been saved". Grace is the vehicle of salvation. It is not God's enabling us to do good works that saved us, it is His unmerited favor. Salvation itself is an act of grace." This act of grace (salvation) should enpower the believer for good works. The danger comes in assuming that the word grace always carries that connotation

So I have read the verses you listed, I am just not persuaded that in every case it carries the connotation you describe.

By the way, please do not think that because I disagree with you, that I dismiss you. I just don't agree with you.

[EricH]

quote=EricH,Jun 10 2005, 03:45 PM]

Here are some passages for you to wrestle with if you care to:

For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

Please give me the chaper and verse so I can get the whole context

John 6:38-40

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand. "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

This verse is your strongest argument and does seem to contradict Hebrews 10:26... Lets pray about this and see what is revealed.

John 10:27-29

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

In the example from Hebrews that "saved" peson chose to leave God so he is no longer in Christ

Romans 8:1

In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation-- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.

I don't see how this addresses loosing one's salvation

Ephesians 1:13-15

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time

I have no problem with God causing us to be re-born or that he has a spot reserved in heaven, or that heaven is imperishable and undefiled. This does not preclude that we can choose to live apart from God, and thus it is through our choices that we reject Gods salvation.

1 Peter 1:3-5

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, that no one should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Faith without Works is dead and it is through faith that we receive his grace. If we have no works, we have no faith, if we have no faith we have no grace. No, we cannot work our way into heaven it is only because of his grace that we are able to obtain heaven. However our faith will be judged, and it will be judged by our works. So the question then becomes can a person loose their faith. "Faith without Works is dead" would suggest that Faith can die, and without faith we can not receive the Grace of God

Ephesians 2:8-10

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Part of me want to read these verses and conlcude that God would never let one of his own fall from Grace so therefore those that seem to have fallen by evidence of their "bad" works were never saved in the first place. But that is truley a depressing thought if you think about it, and I can't get past how very clear the verse in Hebrews is. I will write more later

Kansas Dad

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[Kabowd]

Shouldn't this topic be moved to Doctrinal issues? We've had this debate NUMEROUS times, you might do a search.

Good luck, EricH, at having anyone thoroughly respond without it turning into an ad hominem debate. Everytime I've tried to discuss the issue of grace and salvation security it never fails that those who believe salvation can be lost are very often the ones who show very little grace to others. Interesting.

[tsth]

No, that was merely a response in discouragement.