denominations

[Mike Mclees]

11 hours ago, Prycejosh1987 said:

I guess we have to see what corresponds the most with scripture. I have a baptist upbringing but i love Pentecostal. 

I was raised in the faith in the assemblies of God and in spirit I identify as Pentecostal. Today I am just a follower of Christ. Nice to meet you

[Fidei Defensor]

On 6/12/2019 at 10:32 AM, Mike Mclees said:

The question is, Is denominationalism biblical?   Does God have a preferred and true church  amongst denominations?  Are there denominations in Gods kingdom?

Well Paul says: 

“No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God's approval.” (1 Corinthians 11:19)

There were divisions in the New Testament Church: 

“I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree together, so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be united in mind and conviction.11My brothers, some from Chloe’s household have informed me that there are quarrels among you.12What I mean is this: Individuals among you are saying, “I follow Paul,” “I follow Apollos,” “I follow Cephas,”a or “I follow Christ.” Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul?” (1 Corinthuans 1:10-13) 

This proves there were divisions already in the Church, that Paul had to write these words. 

[LonerAndy]

On 6/12/2019 at 1:32 PM, Mike Mclees said:

The question is, Is denominationalism biblical?   Does God have a preferred and true church  amongst denominations?  Are there denominations in Gods kingdom?

There is nothing in the Bible about denominations.  It is neither bad, nor good.   The Bible is clear, that G-d is no respecter of persons.  Acts 10:34.    There is no special class of people.

I would think there would be little need for denominations in Heaven, but it's possible there will be different church, that worship in different ways, just like we have now.   Hard to say.

[JohnD]

On 6/12/2019 at 12:32 PM, Mike Mclees said:

The question is, Is denominationalism biblical?   Does God have a preferred and true church  amongst denominations?  Are there denominations in Gods kingdom?

John 17 (AV)
1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

Look around... does the Church Organization Industrial Complex look anything like Jesus prayed about?

[JohnD]

BTW Jesus prayed about the Church Organism (huge difference).

[Mike Mclees]

On 7/13/2020 at 8:26 PM, JohnD said:

John 17 (AV)
1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

Look around... does the Church Organization Industrial Complex look anything like Jesus prayed about?

Not sure what you mean by church organization industrial. 

Can you tell me what is the heart of Jesus prayer for the disciples.. What is He asking the Father for and why?.

Edited July 15, 2020 by Mike Mclees

[Justin Adams]

There have always been factions. We sit in our pews largely untaught and somehow believe there was one Judaic religion. No. The Hebrews have always had quite violent discourse regarding scriptures. That is why the Qumran sect thought the Pharisees had lost the plot. They secluded themselves and became devoted to study and preservation of manuscripts.

Did God turn a hair knowing this and watching the Luthers, the Calvinists, the Augustines and many others get it quite wrong along with the church fathers. No, He just waited knowing a new age of scriptural scholarship was just around the corner.

You are probably not aware that much dogma and doctrine of the 'denominations' is in error. So now the newer enlightened renditions of scripture fight with the KJV only groups.

It is what we do. Fight over minutiae. Hence the denominations.

Oh well...

 

[JohnD]

1 hour ago, Mike Mclees said:

Not sure what you mean by church organization industrial. 

Can you tell me what is the heart of Jesus prayer for the disciples.. What is He asking the Father for and why?.

All the times in the prayer that Jesus prayed that the believers be one as He and the Father are one.

The Church Organization that purports to be the Church Organism which imposes Old Testament Laws

on the New Testament Body of Christ... for example:

the Old Covenant division of clergy and laity.

This was imposed on the children of Israel in Exodus 32 (where the only tribe that came to the defense

of God [i.e. Moses, God's servant] was made the priestly tribe).

Previously YHVH stated:

Exodus 19:6 (AV)
6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

On THIS  side of the cross:

Revelation 1:6 (AV)
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Revelation 5:10 (AV)
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

1 Peter 2:3–9 (AV)
3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Each and every believer.

A kingdom of priests... princes and princesses children of the Most High God through the adoption of sons (and daughters) Romans 8:15.

The compromised Church which has not only lent itself to the traditions of man (causing the divisions) it bows down to those human traditions as its authority.

All claim God is their authority. But whom do they go to for scriptural interpretation, for example? 

Who is their authority for the Word of God?

This theologian... that denominational platform... this conference... that council... this pope... that pope... on and on and on...

I recall decades ago the hubris the Church Organization had over liberal theologians at the Jesus Seminar. 

They got together and were going to vote on what Jesus said or didn't say in the Bible based on their personal beliefs.

The Church Organization has been doing the same thing for 1500 years.

What do we do about it?

Pray!

Pray for God's guidance and leadership in your own ministry. Remember, you are a priest of God in Christ. 

Begin at the beginning:

This is NOT about abandoning the Church Organization (unless the Holy Spirit directs you individually)

or of anything tyrannical of hateful. We are salt to season putrefying meat... we are light to expose evil

hiding in the darkness. We should try to win the people in the misled churches to the truth. With love but with firmness.

Showing them the truth in us and not just spewing words "you should this... that... and the other..." but by DOING  them

ourselves.

Not an easy thing. It usually invokes the hatred of those you are trying to save.

It's not about getting people to follow me or you or what we believe but about following God the Holy Spirit and what is true.

[Mike Mclees]

6 hours ago, JohnD said:

All the times in the prayer that Jesus prayed that the believers be one as He and the Father are one.

The Church Organization that purports to be the Church Organism which imposes Old Testament Laws

on the New Testament Body of Christ... for example:

the Old Covenant division of clergy and laity.

This was imposed on the children of Israel in Exodus 32 (where the only tribe that came to the defense

of God [i.e. Moses, God's servant] was made the priestly tribe).

Previously YHVH stated:

Exodus 19:6 (AV)
6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

On THIS  side of the cross:

Revelation 1:6 (AV)
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Revelation 5:10 (AV)
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

1 Peter 2:3–9 (AV)
3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Each and every believer.

A kingdom of priests... princes and princesses children of the Most High God through the adoption of sons (and daughters) Romans 8:15.

The compromised Church which has not only lent itself to the traditions of man (causing the divisions) it bows down to those human traditions as its authority.

All claim God is their authority. But whom do they go to for scriptural interpretation, for example? 

Who is their authority for the Word of God?

This theologian... that denominational platform... this conference... that council... this pope... that pope... on and on and on...

I recall decades ago the hubris the Church Organization had over liberal theologians at the Jesus Seminar. 

They got together and were going to vote on what Jesus said or didn't say in the Bible based on their personal beliefs.

The Church Organization has been doing the same thing for 1500 years.

What do we do about it?

Pray!

Pray for God's guidance and leadership in your own ministry. Remember, you are a priest of God in Christ. 

Begin at the beginning:

This is NOT about abandoning the Church Organization (unless the Holy Spirit directs you individually)

or of anything tyrannical of hateful. We are salt to season putrefying meat... we are light to expose evil

hiding in the darkness. We should try to win the people in the misled churches to the truth. With love but with firmness.

Showing them the truth in us and not just spewing words "you should this... that... and the other..." but by DOING  them

ourselves.

Not an easy thing. It usually invokes the hatred of those you are trying to save.

It's not about getting people to follow me or you or what we believe but about following God the Holy Spirit and what is true.

Before I start to address your reply to me I would like to say one thing to those of this board who say of me that I only  want to spread fear. This of course was not my intent. Still i take any responsibility if i have erred. Please except my apology and forgive me.   We all come from many  roads of thinking and I meant no harm 

Now I will address the questions at hand.

1   We are priests and kings. This means we are special and set apart to Represent Him in all truth and holiness before the world. weather believing or un believing. Peter related this in     1 Peter 2:9

you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood a holy nation. A people for Gods own possession to proclaim the virtues 

2   oneness    In the Lords prayer for the disciples he desired that there be oneness in spirit as Jesus was one with the Father so should those given Him should also be one with Him in mind and spirit  John 17:21

3      Separation from the world       The world is mentioned many times in the New Convent. It does not relate to the world such as our planet but refers to a spirit of rejection to Christ and His sacrifice for our sins. It also relates to all establishment that work independent of God Such as governments. financial systems, religious orders including false Christianity,  and all things that are of corruption and immorality. This is the spirit of the world. It is also called Babylon which is worldliness, and globalism

The word world is mentioned In the Lords pray for the disciples Jesus mentioned the world 11 times 

1 John 2;15 Love not the worls neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world the love of the Father is not in him. for all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life is not of the Father but of the world. 

If anyone has a question about dispising  the world post it or Email. i will do my best to explain. 

[David1701]

On 6/12/2019 at 6:32 PM, Mike Mclees said:

The question is, Is denominationalism biblical?   Does God have a preferred and true church  amongst denominations?  Are there denominations in Gods kingdom?

Denominations are unbiblical.

There is one body of Christ in each town or city in which there are born again Christians; but, the members of that one body are usually scattered across various sects and factions, mixed with many unsaved "Christians"; and so we have Churchianity.

There will be no such divisions in heaven, since there is no sin in heaven and denominations exist because of sin.