trinity

[DearOldDad]

On 4/16/2020 at 8:45 PM, appy said:

I've posted the following in another thread on the forums....

Yes, you are right that we believe in the Trinity, but it is not what you think. I’d like you to read these verses with me from the Bible. This is one of the books of the Torah. There is no question that the Bible teaches that there is one God.[/quote]

 

You are truly inspired when you turn to the New Testament to verify Old Testament events.

Look at what Jesus said in John 16:32 - "Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me [1](monon)alone: and yet [2](ouk eimi monos)I am not alone) because the Father is with me.

[1]monon = accusative masculine singular form of adjective [UBS] monos  = (1) adjective; only,  alone;     

[2](ouk eimi monos) = "I am NOT Alone"

monos = nominative masculine singular form of adjective [UBS] monos = only,  alone;
  

Jesus knew the Old Testament Scriptures and their teachings better than any other Man alive, and He applied the teaching this verse to himself knowing full well, the significance thereof.

Isaiah 37:15
And Hezekiah prayed unto [3](Jehovah)the LORD), saying, 16 O [3](Jehovah)LORD) of hosts, [4](Elohiym)God) of Israel, that dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the [4(Elohiym)God), even thou [2](monos)alone), of all the kingdoms of the earth: thou hast made heaven and earth.

[That means Jesus is NOT Elohiym God, nor is he Jehovah.]

Isaiah 37:20 Now therefore, O [3](Jehovah)LORD) our [4](Elohiym)God), save us from his hand, that all the kingdoms of the earth may know that thou art [3](JEHOVAH)the LORD), even thou [2](MONOS)only).

[2]monos = nominative masculine singular form of adjective  [UBS]monos = (1) adj. only, alone

[3]3068 hw"hoy> Yehovah {yeh-ho-vaw'}
Meaning:  Jehovah = "the existing  One" 1) the proper name of the one  true God
Usage:  AV - LORD 6510, GOD 4,  JEHOVAH 4, variant 1; 6519

[4]0430 ~yhil{a/ 'elohiym {el-o-heem'}
Meaning: 1) (plural intensive; singular meaning)(like "sheep" = plural form singular meaning  the (true) God  [Mat 18:12-13][Luke 15:4-7]

According to John 16:32, if Jehovah God, the Father, is (MONOS), Jesus is NOT with him

Isaiah 37:20 Now therefore, O LORD our God, save us from his hand, that all the kingdoms of the earth may know that thou art the LORD, even thou MONOS (only).

Let us examine further, to identify this Jehovah who is MONOS in creating;
Isa 63:16 Isaiah 63:16 Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O[3](JEHOVAH)LORD), art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting.

Let us see if there is more than one reference that teaches Jehovah, God, the Father of Israel - (ALONE)MONOS) created anything;

Isaiah 44:24 Thus saith [3](JEHOVAH)the LORD), thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am (JEHOVAH)the LORD) that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens MONOS(alone); that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

Ezek 17:13 And ye shall know that I am (Jehovah)The LORD), when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, 14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I (Jehovah)the LORD) have spoken it, and performed it, saith (Jehovah)the LORD).

In the New Testament there is a verse quoted continually that says God created everything through Jesus Christ (Eph 3:9); the problem with that is, "Through Jesus Christ" is not provided in the GREEK. It was added to aid the reader in understanding what God meant to say.

 

[Tristen]

Sorry to but-in halfway through the conversation.

Speaking to the original question of the OP, I think the question itself is somewhat of a trap. We don't need to be able to explain the eternal Creator. Why should we assume His fullness could ever be understood or fully comprehended by any finite mind? How do you explain Trinity to a Christian?

We do not believe there are three God's because the Bible teaches that there is only one God. Nevertheless, the Bible indicates that God is more complex - with an internal distinction being made between God the Father, God the Son and the Holy Spirit of God. The deity of Christ is overwhelmingly evidenced in scripture.

There are many examples of entities which can be thought of as triune (i.e. both one and three at the same time) - but I have found no natural analogy reflecting the Trinity of God. My preferred  example is the trinity of humanity (i.e. one personal distinction with three essences; body, soul and spirit) - but note that we are triune in the opposite way to God who is one essence and three personal distinctions.

Either way, Christians universally claim to worship only one God. We are explicitly monotheistic. Therefore anyone claiming otherwise, regardless of whether or not they understand the complexity of our God, is in error.

[TruthDefender]

On 6/17/2019 at 11:16 PM, Worship Warriors said:

How do you explain the triune God to a Muslim? they think that Christian are worshiping 3 gods. here is definition :

 One being within the One being are 3 persons One being in 3 persons. . Being and persons is not the same thing.

---------------------------------------------------------

How do you 'explain' it with a Straight Face?

 

[Daniel Marsh]

On 6/19/2019 at 3:22 AM, Worship Warriors said:

But God told Moses  that his name is YAHWEH. that means he is always good, always merciful , always forgiving. He does not change, he is the one who was and is and forever will be the same. 

the other gods of all the religion does not have the name YAHWEH

"

Extra-biblical Mention of Yahweh

The oldest mention of Yahweh was long held to be the Moabite Stone (also known as the Mesha Stele) erected by King Mesha of Moab to celebrate his victory over Israel in c. 840 BCE. The inscription mentions how Mesha, after defeating the Israelites, “took the vessels of Yahweh to Kemosh” (the chief god of Moab), meaning the objects sacred to the worship of Yahweh in the temple, most likely the temple in Israel’s capital of Samaria (Kerrigan, 78-79).

The Moabite Stone was discovered in 1868 CE in modern-day Jordan and the find published in 1870 CE. As the first extra-biblical inscription found to mention Yahweh, much was made of the discovery as the stele reported the same event from the biblical narrative of II Kings 3 in which Mesha the Moabite rebels against Israel (though with the major difference of the stele claiming a Moabite victory and the Bible claiming Israel the winner). The way the Yahweh line was interpreted further supported the concept of Yahweh as the god of the Israelites alone since Mesha claims to have taken the Israelite god’s vessels as tribute to his own.

 

 

Mesha Stele - Moabite Stone

by Henri Sivonen (CC BY)

 

In 1844 CE the ruins of the ancient city of Soleb in Nubia was excavated by the archaeologist Karl Richard Lepsius who documented the site in detail but did not excavate. In 1907 CE James Henry Breasted arrived and photographed the site but, again, engaged in no excavation. It was not until 1957 CE that a team under the archaeologist Michela Schiff Giorgini, excavated the site and found reference to a group of people described as “Shasu of Yahweh” at the base of one of the columns of the temple in the hypostyle hall. The temple was built by Amenhotep III (c.1386-1353 BCE) and the reference to Yahweh established that this god was worshipped by another people long before the time when the events of the biblical narratives are thought to have taken place.

THE DISCOVERY OF AMENHOTEP III’S MENTION OF THE SHASU OF YAHWEH PLACED THE GOD MUCH EARLIER IN HISTORY THAN HAD BEEN ACCEPTED PREVIOUSLY.

The Shasu (also given as Shashu) were a Semitic, nomadic people described as outlaws or bandits by the Egyptians and, in fact, they are named on the column of the temple at Soleb among Egypt’s other enemies and appear later, in an inscription from the reign of Ramesses II (1279-1213 BCE), as among the pharaoh’s enemies at the Battle of Kadesh. As it has been established they were a nomadic people, attempts have been made to link them with the Hebrews and with the Habiru, a group of renegades in the Levant, but these claims have been refuted. Whoever the Shasu were, they were not Hebrew and the Habiru seem to be Canaanites who simply refused to conform to the customs of the land, not a separate ethnic group.

The discovery of Amenhotep III’s mention of the Shasu of Yahweh placed the god much earlier in history than had been accepted previously but also suggested that Yahweh was perhaps not native to Canaan. This fit with the theory that Yahweh was a desert god whom the Hebrews adopted in their exodus from Egypt to Canaan. The descriptions of Yahweh appearing as a pillar of fire by night and cloud by day as well as the other fire-imagery from the Book of Exodus was interpreted by some scholars as suggesting a storm god or weather-deity and, particularly, a desert god since Yahweh is able to direct Moses to water sources (Exodus 17:6 and Numbers 20). It is generally accepted in the modern day, however, that Yahweh originated in southern Canaan as a lesser god in the Canaanite pantheon and the Shasu, as nomads, most likely acquired their worship of him during their time in the Levant.

The Moabite Stone has also been reinterpreted in light of recent scholarship which demonstrates that the people of Moab also worshipped Yahweh and the reference to Mesha taking the vessels of Yahweh to Kemosh most likely means he repossessed what he felt belonged to the Moabites, not that he conquered Israel and its god in the name of his own.   "  https://www.ancient.eu/Yahweh/

Me:  The use of the word Yahweh in those texts does not prove direction of who used that name of God first, nor if the authors of the Bible copied from canaanite or other texts. 

 

 

[Daniel Marsh]

On 6/18/2019 at 2:16 AM, Worship Warriors said:

How do you explain the triune God to a Muslim? they think that Christian are worshiping 3 gods. here is definition :

 One being

 

within the One being are 3 persons

 

 

 

One being in 3 persons. . Being and persons is not the same thing.

 

 

 

Being- the essence that makes something what it is .for example, there are celestial beings, there are human beings, and there is one divine being. The being of God is what makes God God. He is omnipotent omnipresent all powerful

 

 

 

Person-the essence that makes someone who he is. The personality of someone. Within my one being is one person. Within the one being of God are three persons. The three persons are co-equal and co eternal. What does this tell me about God?

 

 

 

God is a being in communion within Himself. He is a relational God. You can’t say that God is love unless there is a lover, a beloved and the Spirit of love between them

 

 

 

My definition of the trinity

 

 

 

One personal God

 

 

 

 

 

One personal God. But He can work and function in three different ways at the same time: the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit.

 

 

I in 3: ONE BEING but the three persons are all sharing the same one being.

 

3 in 1: In the ONE BEING, there are three persons.

 

 

 

Because the three persons of the Godhead are all sharing the same being, I can say God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.

 

 

 

This is what makes Christianity so unique compared to other religions. The triune God is a personal God. He is relational. He wants to be known. That’s the nature of love. Christianity is an encounter with a personal God who has so transformed your heart that now you want to live radically for Him out of love.

 

 

 

 

https://www.answering-islam.org/Trinity/

[TrevorL]

Greetings Worship Warriors,

On 6/18/2019 at 4:16 PM, Worship Warriors said:

How do you explain the triune God to a Muslim? they think that Christian are worshiping 3 gods. here is definition :  One being within the One being are 3 persons

I have had a quick read of all the posts so far. None of them convince me that there is a Trinity and I am in fellowship with some ex-Muslims who found the transition to a belief in Christ much easier than your problem. I am not sure if I am allowed to answer some of the posts here as some of the posts are rather inadequate, but this has been discussed numerous times. I believe that there is One God, Yahweh, God the Father and that our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God and is seated at the right hand of God Psalm 110:1, soon to return to establish the Kingdom of God upon the earth.

Kind regards Trevor

[Alive]

Matt. 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

[Marathoner]

Nice graphical representation supplied by Roar and an excellent verse from Matthew revealing the trinity furnished by Alive. More in support from the gospel of John:

Jesus Christ, the Word of God, is God (John 1:1-2) who created all things (John 1:3).
No one has seen the Father but the Son who is in the bosom of the Father --- He has explained Him (John 1:18).
The Father testifies of the Son whom He sent (John 8:18).
The Son of God is I AM (John 8:58). The 3rd chapter of Exodus (verse 14) describes how the Word of God, who is I AM, spoke to Moses from the burning bush telling him to say to Israel, "The God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob has sent me to you." I AM is His name for all generations (next verse).

God's Spirit dwells with the saints (1 Corinthians 3:16).
The Holy Spirit is God (1 Corinthians 2:11; 2 Corinthians 3:17; Ephesians 4:30; 2 Peter 1:21). 
The Son of God sends the Holy Spirit (John 15:26); God gives His Spirit to those who obey Him (Acts 5:32)

Not exhaustive but the testimony of the scriptures speaks of the trinity in many different places. It can be surmised that the Word made flesh is God visible to our eyes. Refer to the 32nd chapter of Genesis where Jacob wrestled with God: "I have seen God face to face and my life was preserved." Many not only saw the Word made flesh with their eyes but touched Him with their hands (20th chapter of John). 

[David1701]

8 hours ago, TrevorL said:

Greetings Worship Warriors,

I have had a quick read of all the posts so far. None of them convince me that there is a Trinity and I am in fellowship with some ex-Muslims who found the transition to a belief in Christ much easier than your problem. I am not sure if I am allowed to answer some of the posts here as some of the posts are rather inadequate, but this has been discussed numerous times. I believe that there is One God, Yahweh, God the Father and that our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God and is seated at the right hand of God Psalm 110:1, soon to return to establish the Kingdom of God upon the earth.

Kind regards Trevor

Anyone who refuses to believe that the Lord Jesus Christ is God manifest in the flesh, that He is the great I AM of the Old Testament (Jehovah), will die in his sins.

John 8:23,24 (VW)

23 And He said to them, You are from beneath; I am from above. You are from this world; I am not from this world.
24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I AM, you will die in your sins.

John 8:58 (VW) Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham came to be, I AM.

John 20:27-29 (VW)

27 Then He said to Thomas, Bring your finger here, and look at My hands; and bring your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.
28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, My Lord and my God!
29 Jesus said to him, Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those not seeing and yet believing.

1 Tim. 3:16 (VW) And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen by angels, preached among the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up in glory.

[TrevorL]

Greetings Roar and David1701,

6 hours ago, Roar said:

The first link presents you with a lot of material on the Trinity.

I was a bit overwhelmed by the amount of material you referenced. I had a browse at the first five recommended articles, but again these contained too much matter to properly consider. These were:

Sam Schlorff's quick answer, The Trinity and you

James Arlandson's article A Brief Explanation of the Trinity

John Gilchrist's chapter on The Doctrine of the Trinity

Mr. Anderson's booklet The Trinity

Ernest Hahn's essay Our Savior God, How Great You Are! — Introducing the Muslim to the Christian Doctrine of the Holy Trinity

I decided to only give a brief response to David1701’s post as I assess that what he has stated is typical of the Trinitarian position.

8 hours ago, David1701 said:

Anyone who refuses to believe that the Lord Jesus Christ is God manifest in the flesh, that He is the great I AM of the Old Testament (Jehovah), will die in his sins.

John 8:23,24 (VW) 23 And He said to them, You are from beneath; I am from above. You are from this world; I am not from this world.
24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I AM, you will die in your sins.

John 8:58 (VW) Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham came to be, I AM.

There are a number of problems with this part of your response.

Firstly, I notice that you did not quote from the second occurrence of “I am” or rather in this passage “I am he”.

John 8:28 (KJV): Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

Please note that even the KJV translators distinguish between John 8:24 and John 8:28 by comparison with John 8:58. In other words their rendition of “I am he” indicates that they do not consider that these two passages are a direct link with Exodus 3:14. A brief consideration of John 8:28 clearly indicates that Jesus is not claiming to be Deity in this passage. He states that he is dependent upon His Father.

Secondly you say that Jesus is the great I AM of the OT (Jehovah). I believe that the correct translation of Exodus 3:14 is “I will be” as per Tyndale’s translation and the RV and RSV margins and hence there is no direct reference in John 8:58 to Exodus 3:14.

8 hours ago, David1701 said:

John 20:27-29 (VW)

27 Then He said to Thomas, Bring your finger here, and look at My hands; and bring your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.
28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, My Lord and my God!
29 Jesus said to him, Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those not seeing and yet believing.

Jesus is definitely our Lord and the distinction between LORD (Yahweh) and Lord is clearly shown in Psalm 110:1. The title God is given to those who represent God, and is also used for the Angels and Judges. You were careful not to quote the next verses, and this shows what John claims to be the purpose of his Gospel record:

John 20:30–31 (KJV): 30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Jesus is not God (in the English sense of the word), or God the Son, but he is the Son of God.

8 hours ago, David1701 said:

1 Tim. 3:16 (VW) And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen by angels, preached among the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up in glory.

Yes, Jesus fully revealed God His Father.

Kind regards Trevor

Edited June 10, 2020 by TrevorL