trinity

[David1701]

12 hours ago, TrevorL said:

Greetings again David1701,

I appreciate your participation, but I do not consider what I stated in my last post simply as a repetition. I was disappointed that you did not answer my questions about the VW translation, and if anyone on the forum has a copy I would be interested, and also the question if this translation is a general translation, or a translation supported by or supporting a small group with a particular view. I am the librarian for our meeting, and we have a reasonable lending and reference library, but I also have a strong interest in Bible books, both expositional and reference, and have a large personal collection in print and electronic. As far as my mention of “Jehovah” being incorrect, I recommend the introduction to Rotherham’s translation, and the fact that there are two forms of the YHWH Name in the Hebrew Bible, one with the vowel points for Elohim, the other for Adonai.

I appreciate your continuing concern for my spiritual welfare. I would like to continue and conclude if no one else takes up your cause by explaining the further development of the Yahweh Name. This is a subject that I have been interested in over many years, and was first introduced to this in a formal way at a Young People’s Weekend in the Southern Highlands of NSW Australia when I was 19 years old.

When Israel was delivered out of Egypt the Name of God remained the same, but the particular activity had been accomplished:
Exodus 15:1-3 (KJV): 1 Then sang Moses and the children of Israel this song unto the LORD, and spake, saying, I will sing unto the LORD, for he hath triumphed gloriously: the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea. 2 The LORD is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he is my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; my father’s God, and I will exalt him. 3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.
The future tense of God’s Name “He will be or become” had been accomplished in the initial deliverance of Israel out of Egypt, and Yahweh had become Israel’s salvation.

The initial fulfillment was not the ultimate completion of the Yahweh Name. God’s purpose with the earth was not complete with the salvation of Israel out of Egypt. God’s purpose was declared in the following, but sadly this was spoken at a time when the very generation that had been born through God”s deliverance failed.
Numbers 14:21 (KJV): But as truly as I live, all the earth shall be filled with the glory of the LORD.

The above raises the question as to how and when will the earth be filled with the glory of God. One indication is found when the Psalmist uses the same words as Moses’ Song to speak of another deliverance:
Psalm 118:14-25 (KJV): 14 The LORD is my strength and song, and is become my salvation. 15 The voice of rejoicing and salvation is in the tabernacles of the righteous: the right hand of the LORD doeth valiantly. 16 The right hand of the LORD is exalted: the right hand of the LORD doeth valiantly. 17 I shall not die, but live, and declare the works of the LORD. 18 The LORD hath chastened me sore: but he hath not given me over unto death. 19 Open to me the gates of righteousness: I will go into them, and I will praise the LORD: 20 This gate of the LORD, into which the righteous shall enter. 21 I will praise thee: for thou hast heard me, and art become my salvation. 22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner. 23 This is the LORD’s doing; it is marvellous in our eyes. 24 This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it. 25 Save now, I beseech thee, O LORD: O LORD, I beseech thee, send now prosperity.
The above is quoted at length to show that there was to be a greater salvation in fulfillment of the Yahweh Name. It is evident from the context that this salvation is by means of the crucifixion, death and resurrection of the man of God’s right hand, the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

The greater deliverance is revealed even in the conception and birth of the child:
Matthew 1:20-21 (KJV): 20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
The meaning of the name Jesus is revealed: “for he shall save his people from their sins”. Was Jesus to be an independent Saviour? No, the name Jesus incorporates the Yahweh Name, Je-sous, Jo-shua, or Yah-oshea. He was to be Yahweh’s Salvation. Here then is the extension or fulfillment of the Yahweh Name, Yahweh was to be, to become. He was to “become salvation” Exodus 15:2, in and through Jesus, the Son of God. Yahweh is the Saviour, Jesus is the Saviour. In other words Yahweh, God the Father is the Saviour through His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. Yahweh has become salvation.

Salvation is now offered in the Name of Jesus Christ:
Acts 4:10-12 (KJV): 10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. 11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. 12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

The subject of God’s Name has many other aspects, but I suggest the more we understand some of these aspects, the more we realise that the spelling and pronunciation of the Name, while important, is not as important as understanding the Name. Here are a few examples of other aspects:

Psalm 9:10 (KJV): And they that know thy name will put their trust in thee: for thou, LORD, hast not forsaken them that seek thee.

John 12:27–28 (KJV): 27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour. 28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.

The reason why we do not encounter the Name Yahweh extensively in the NT is that the expression “God the Father” teaches the same as “Yahweh”, that the One God, Yahweh, God the Father was going to be active to achieve His purpose of salvation, and to accomplish this He gave birth to a Son, Jesus the Son of God Matthew 1:20-21, Luke 1:34-35, to reveal God’s character, he was full of grace and truth John 1:14 and manifest the Father’s Name John 17:6, Romans 1:1-4.

Kind regards
Trevor

Apologies - honestly, I was getting a bit discouraged and did not read your whole post.

The VW translation is a one-man translation, using the NKJV as a starting point, and comparing the latest and best language tools.  It is not commonly used and I doubt if it ever will be, but I have found it to be generally accurate and reliable.  It's not my main Bible but I do use it sometimes.

I have no problem with a translation using "Lord", "Yahweh" or "Jehovah".  My preference is normally for "Lord", probably because I'm more used to that.

Here is a link to some information about the VW translation.  This does not mean that I necessarily agree with everything on the site.

http://www.a-voice.org/bible.htm

Thanks for taking the time to reply in depth; and I have read the whole post this time.

There is indeed only one God; but that one God is made up of three distinct Persons - Father, Son and Holy Spirit, who are of the same essence, co-equal and co-eternal.  I doubt if any mere human can understand exactly how this works; but we should believe it, even if we don't understand it fully.

That the Lord Jesus Christ is God, is made clear in many verses, a couple of examples follow.

1 Timothy 3:16 (World English Bible)  

16 Without controversy, the mystery of godliness is great: 
God was revealed in the flesh,
justified in the spirit,
seen by angels,
preached among the nations,
believed on in the world,
and received up in glory.

John 20:26-29 (WEB)

 26  After eight days again his disciples were inside, and Thomas was with them. Jesus came, the doors being locked, and stood in the midst, and said, “Peace be to you.” 
  27 Then he said to Thomas, “Reach here your finger, and see my hands. Reach here your hand, and put it into my side. Don’t be unbelieving, but believing.” 

  28  Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” 

  29  Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen, and have believed.” 
 

P.S.  I have some other uncommon (but quite good) Bible translations that might interest you, if you don't already know about them: English Majority Text Version (NT only), Analytical Literal Translation (NT only), The Sovereign Creator Has Spoken (NT only), The New Testament An Expanded Translation (NT only), World English Bible (Full Bible) and KJ3 (Full Bible).

Edited June 13, 2020 by David1701

[TrevorL]

Greetings again David1701,

6 hours ago, David1701 said:

The VW translation is a one-man translation, using the NKJV as a starting point, and comparing the latest and best language tools.  It is not commonly used and I doubt if it ever will be, but I have found it to be generally accurate and reliable.  It's not my main Bible but I do use it sometimes.

P.S.  I have some other uncommon (but quite good) Bible translations that might interest you, if you don't already know about them: English Majority Text Version (NT only), Analytical Literal Translation (NT only), The Sovereign Creator Has Spoken (NT only), The New Testament An Expanded Translation (NT only), World English Bible (Full Bible) and KJ3 (Full Bible).

I appreciate the information about the VW Bible. I will look into this. I also appreciate the mention of the other Bibles, and I have not heard of any of these. I am a hoarder collector, but I do not usually buy new books because of the cost. I visit the various second hand bookshops and attend book sales, and as a result have accumulated a large library, but not thorough. I have recently purchased new print editions of the translations of the Psalms by Robert Alter and Isaiah and the Psalms by Alec Motyer because of my special in the Psalms and Isaiah. These have some marginal notes and other comments.

6 hours ago, David1701 said:

I have no problem with a translation using "Lord", "Yahweh" or "Jehovah".  My preference is normally for "Lord", probably because I'm more used to that.

I prefer at least the distinction LORD and Lord, and have also spent some time distinguishing between Elohim and El, both usually translated as God. What is important is to allow the Scriptures speak clearly in some important contexts.

6 hours ago, David1701 said:

There is indeed only one God; but that one God is made up of three distinct Persons - Father, Son and Holy Spirit, who are of the same essence, co-equal and co-eternal.  I doubt if any mere human can understand exactly how this works; but we should believe it, even if we don't understand it fully.

I appreciate your perspective, but have considered this over many years and some discussions on other forums. I was brought up in an environment that teaches that there is One God, Yahweh, God the Father and that our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God. He is the Son of God by birth, by his moral character, and by the resurrection from the dead. I accept that 1 Timothy 3:16 teaches that God was revealed in and through Jesus, and this is an extension of my understanding that Yahweh would “become”, or in other words He would be a Father. The ultimate purpose of God is that He will be All in All. I understand Jesus is Lord Psalm 110:1, not LORD (Yahweh), and Jesus is God because He represents God in a similar yet greater way than the Angels and Judges who were also addressed as “God” that is OT Elohim John 10:30-36, Psalm 8:4-6.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

[David1701]

16 hours ago, TrevorL said:

Greetings again David1701,

I appreciate the information about the VW Bible. I will look into this. I also appreciate the mention of the other Bibles, and I have not heard of any of these. I am a hoarder collector, but I do not usually buy new books because of the cost. I visit the various second hand bookshops and attend book sales, and as a result have accumulated a large library, but not thorough. I have recently purchased new print editions of the translations of the Psalms by Robert Alter and Isaiah and the Psalms by Alec Motyer because of my special in the Psalms and Isaiah. These have some marginal notes and other comments.

If you are interested, the W.E.B. and V.W. are available as free downloads from the Internet.  The W.E.B. translators provide several different formats and editions.  The E.M.T.V. and W.E.B. are also available as free modules, for Bible software based on the Sword Project.

Quote

I prefer at least the distinction LORD and Lord, and have also spent some time distinguishing between Elohim and El, both usually translated as God. What is important is to allow the Scriptures speak clearly in some important contexts.

Yes, these distinctions can make slight differences.

Quote

I appreciate your perspective, but have considered this over many years and some discussions on other forums. I was brought up in an environment that teaches that there is One God, Yahweh, God the Father and that our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God. He is the Son of God by birth, by his moral character, and by the resurrection from the dead. I accept that 1 Timothy 3:16 teaches that God was revealed in and through Jesus, and this is an extension of my understanding that Yahweh would “become”, or in other words He would be a Father. The ultimate purpose of God is that He will be All in All. I understand Jesus is Lord Psalm 110:1, not LORD (Yahweh), and Jesus is God because He represents God in a similar yet greater way than the Angels and Judges who were also addressed as “God” that is OT Elohim John 10:30-36, Psalm 8:4-6.

Kind regards

Trevor

Was that a J.W. background?  I ask because what you are describing is not Christian teaching.

[TrevorL]

Greetings again David1701,

6 hours ago, David1701 said:

Was that a J.W. background?  I ask because what you are describing is not Christian teaching.

No, I have many disagreements with JW teaching on many of their views. I prefer to discuss one subject at a time, referring to one Scripture at a time, and thus gradually we can grow in fellowship, or part ways, as seems to be the result of our discussion. Regarding this subject, the JWs teach the pre-existence of Jesus, usually as Michael the Archangel, while most Catholics and Protestants (is this your definition of “Christian”? with a multitude of conflicting opinions on most subjects) teach the pre-existence of Jesus as God the Son, the Second Person of the Trinity. I believe that Jesus did not pre-exist, but the One God, Yahweh, God the Father was the father and Mary the mother, gave birth to Jesus, the Son of God by means of the power of the Holy Spirit, and as such Jesus was a man Matthew 1:20-21, Luke 1:34-35, John 1:14 and another title He is the Son of Man, which starts with son of Adam Psalm 8:4, 80:17. As such he was also descended from Adam, partaking of Adam’s fallen nature so that he could overcome sin in all its effects Genesis 3:15,19, and open the way for us from sin and death through forgiveness as our representative Romans 3:19-21, 6:1-8, 8:3, Hebrews 2:14, not as our substitute. We claim that what we believe represents the faith that Jesus and the Apostles taught and is different to both JW and your supposed “Christian” teaching.

 

We differ with JWs and your “Christians” on many aspects of the true Gospel Romans 1:1-4,16-17, Galatians 3:8,16,26-29, which is summarised as the things concerning the Kingdom of God and the Name of Jesus Christ and baptism Acts 8:5-6,12, 28:30-31. We believe that Jesus will return and sit upon the Throne of David in Jerusalem for 1000 years, with the faithful of the past 6000 years as his immortal king-priests ruling over converted Israel with mortal subjects as the first dominion, and over the nations also subjected and learning the ways of God Isaiah 2:1-4, Daniel 2:35,44, Zechariah 14, Acts 3:19-21. JWs and not many of your “Christians” will agree with this belief. JWs wipe out all the nations and preserve only JWs on the earth, having sent 144,000 to heaven while most of your “Christians” have over ten different conflicting opinions, and really only believe in going to heaven at death, and God torturing the rest of humanity in hell for eternity. They disagree on what is “the Kingdom of God”.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

Edited June 14, 2020 by TrevorL

[David1701]

1 hour ago, TrevorL said:

Greetings again David1701,

No, I have many disagreements with JW teaching on many of their views. I prefer to discuss one subject at a time, referring to one Scripture at a time, and thus gradually we can grow in fellowship, or part ways, as seems to be the result of our discussion. Regarding this subject, the JWs teach the pre-existence of Jesus, usually as Michael the Archangel, while most Catholics and Protestants (is this your definition of “Christian”? with a multitude of conflicting opinions on most subjects) teach the pre-existence of Jesus as God the Son, the Second Person of the Trinity. I believe that Jesus did not pre-exist, but the One God, Yahweh, God the Father was the father and Mary the mother, gave birth to Jesus, the Son of God by means of the power of the Holy Spirit, and as such Jesus was a man Matthew 1:20-21, Luke 1:34-35, John 1:14 and another title He is the Son of Man, which starts with son of Adam Psalm 8:4, 80:17. As such he was also descended from Adam, partaking of Adam’s fallen nature so that he could overcome sin in all its effects Genesis 3:15,19, and open the way for us from sin and death through forgiveness as our representative Romans 3:19-21, 6:1-8, 8:3, Hebrews 2:14, not as our substitute. We claim that what we believe represents the faith that Jesus and the Apostles taught and is different to both JW and your supposed “Christian” teaching.

 

We differ with JWs and your “Christians” on many aspects of the true Gospel Romans 1:1-4,16-17, Galatians 3:8,16,26-29, which is summarised as the things concerning the Kingdom of God and the Name of Jesus Christ and baptism Acts 8:5-6,12, 28:30-31. We believe that Jesus will return and sit upon the Throne of David in Jerusalem for 1000 years, with the faithful of the past 6000 years as his immortal king-priests ruling over converted Israel with mortal subjects as the first dominion, and over the nations also subjected and learning the ways of God Isaiah 2:1-4, Daniel 2:35,44, Zechariah 14, Acts 3:19-21. JWs and not many of your “Christians” will agree with this belief. JWs wipe out all the nations and preserve only JWs on the earth, having sent 144,000 to heaven while most of your “Christians” have over ten different conflicting opinions, and really only believe in going to heaven at death, and God torturing the rest of humanity in hell for eternity. They disagree on what is “the Kingdom of God”.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

I have not come across this teaching before; but it's definitely not Christian. 

The Lord Jesus Christ is God manifest in the flesh.  He is Emmanuel (God with us).  He is the great I AM.  He is the Word (In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.).  He is the Son of God, which the Jews realised meant that He IS God.  He created all things.  He was omnipresent, even during his ministry on earth.

John 3:13 (NKJV) No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

Matt. 18:20 (NKJV) For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them."

etc, etc.

[TrevorL]

Greetings again David1701,

6 hours ago, David1701 said:

He is the great I AM.

I have already responded to this.

6 hours ago, David1701 said:

He is the Son of God, which the Jews realised meant that He IS God.

I suggest that this is a shallow assessment as it bypasses the real teaching concerning our Lord Jesus Christ as The Son of God, for example John 10:30-36 where their accusation is compared with Jesus' claim. I am happy to leave our discussion as I have given a brief overview of my perspective. 

Kind regards Trevor 

[leah777]

14 hours ago, TrevorL said:

Greetings again David1701,

No, I have many disagreements with JW teaching on many of their views. I prefer to discuss one subject at a time, referring to one Scripture at a time, and thus gradually we can grow in fellowship, or part ways, as seems to be the result of our discussion. Regarding this subject, the JWs teach the pre-existence of Jesus, usually as Michael the Archangel, while most Catholics and Protestants (is this your definition of “Christian”? with a multitude of conflicting opinions on most subjects) teach the pre-existence of Jesus as God the Son, the Second Person of the Trinity. I believe that Jesus did not pre-exist, but the One God, Yahweh, God the Father was the father and Mary the mother, gave birth to Jesus, the Son of God by means of the power of the Holy Spirit, and as such Jesus was a man Matthew 1:20-21, Luke 1:34-35, John 1:14 and another title He is the Son of Man, which starts with son of Adam Psalm 8:4, 80:17. As such he was also descended from Adam, partaking of Adam’s fallen nature so that he could overcome sin in all its effects Genesis 3:15,19, and open the way for us from sin and death through forgiveness as our representative Romans 3:19-21, 6:1-8, 8:3, Hebrews 2:14, not as our substitute. We claim that what we believe represents the faith that Jesus and the Apostles taught and is different to both JW and your supposed “Christian” teaching.

 

We differ with JWs and your “Christians” on many aspects of the true Gospel Romans 1:1-4,16-17, Galatians 3:8,16,26-29, which is summarised as the things concerning the Kingdom of God and the Name of Jesus Christ and baptism Acts 8:5-6,12, 28:30-31. We believe that Jesus will return and sit upon the Throne of David in Jerusalem for 1000 years, with the faithful of the past 6000 years as his immortal king-priests ruling over converted Israel with mortal subjects as the first dominion, and over the nations also subjected and learning the ways of God Isaiah 2:1-4, Daniel 2:35,44, Zechariah 14, Acts 3:19-21. JWs and not many of your “Christians” will agree with this belief. JWs wipe out all the nations and preserve only JWs on the earth, having sent 144,000 to heaven while most of your “Christians” have over ten different conflicting opinions, and really only believe in going to heaven at death, and God torturing the rest of humanity in hell for eternity. They disagree on what is “the Kingdom of God”.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

Who do you mean by "we"? I have highlighted the use of the words in my quote above.

Where are you quoting from?

[TrevorL]

Greetings leah777, 

1 hour ago, leah777 said:

Who do you mean by "we"?

David 1701 was asking if I was a JW, and I answered him no and mentioned a few differences between my personal belief and the JWs ideas. In the process I did not disclose exactly who I am in fellowship with, but nevertheless I was using the expression “we” to indicate my fellowship and the teachings that we share. I belong to a lay movement and in my region in NSW Australia there are 8 meetings in fellowship. We have visiting speakers from some of these meetings and sometimes from further afield.

1 hour ago, leah777 said:

Where are you quoting from?

I was not quoting from anywhere, but expressing my beliefs and the beliefs of my fellowship in brief terms.

Kind regards Trevor

[leah777]

5 minutes ago, TrevorL said:

Greetings leah777, 

David 1701 was asking if I was a JW, and I answered him no and mentioned a few differences between my personal belief and the JWs ideas. In the process I did not disclose exactly who I am in fellowship with, but nevertheless I was using the expression “we” to indicate my fellowship and the teachings that we share. I belong to a lay movement and in my region in NSW Australia there are 8 meetings in fellowship. We have visiting speakers from some of these meetings and sometimes from further afield.

I was not quoting from anywhere, but expressing my beliefs and the beliefs of my fellowship in brief terms.

Kind regards Trevor

Thank you for your clarification. Do you believe in the trinity? 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again leah777, 

8 minutes ago, leah777 said:

Do you believe in the trinity? 

No, but if you read my posts you will find that I believe that there is one God, Yahweh, God the Father and that our Lord Jesus Christ is a man, the Son of God. Jesus, still a man, but now glorified and made immortal is now seated at the right hand of God the Father, in God the Father’s Throne Psalm 110:1. I am waiting for the return of Jesus to establish the Kingdom of God upon the earth, not heaven going and we could well be in the beginning of the time of trouble.

Kind regards Trevor