Sin, Salvation, Grace..cont'd

[Guest -=the objectivist=-]

26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.

What is this saying? Sounds pretty harsh to me. If we just read through it without considering the rest of the bible its sounds utterly terrifying for every Christian I know. It says if we sin willfully after we have

[EricH]

Kansasdad,

So I assume you hold that if you loose your salvation, you cannot get it back, as that is what the Hebrews passage says (if it is adressing salvation)?

[Catsmeow]

People characterize the position of Eternal Security as once saved always saved. I prefer the designation "perseverance of the Saints". The logical issue as I see it, is that people who hold that you can loose your salvation as a result of works, want to believe that something that was not the cause of our salvation, can be the end of it. Also, those who hold that Hebrews teaches that we can lose our salvation must also hold that once it is lost it cannot be restored.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's excellent! You've described something I've been wrestling with. I'm not proud of that but it's true. It's been a burden to my very soul.

Now I find myself studying to rightly divide the Word of God and making absolutely sure the context is correct. I also examine the many commentaries written as well.

Thanks for sharing. Cats

[Kabowd]

This is the same argument Eric made and it doesn

[Khristeeanos]

I just can't believe in OSAS because of so many clear warnings given to Christians that they could still end up in the lake of fire.

One of the most obvious is in the aforementioned Galatians.

In case you may have missed it, the verses preceding the one you put in bold clearly describes the unregenerate person...not those who are born again. In fact, it even addresses them as "acts of the sinful nature". A person who is born again is a NEW creation, their sinful nature has been changed and the Holy Spirit takes up residence inside them.

Do you have other Scriptures you'd like us to take a look at that seem to suggest that believers can end up in the lake of fire?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Tess, this passage is a warning given to Christians. There are many others like Matthew 18:3 where Jesus tells His disciples that it was possible for them to still end up missing out on the kingdom of God.

No amount of reading into these passages will make up for the fact that there are warnings given to Christians.

[tsth]

People characterize the position of Eternal Security as once saved always saved. I prefer the designation "perseverance of the Saints". The logical issue as I see it, is that people who hold that you can loose your salvation as a result of works, want to believe that something that was not the cause of our salvation, can be the end of it. Also, those who hold that Hebrews teaches that we can lose our salvation must also hold that once it is lost it cannot be restored.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's excellent! You've described something I've been wrestling with. I'm not proud of that but it's true. It's been a burden to my very soul.

Now I find myself studying to rightly divide the Word of God and making absolutely sure the context is correct. I also examine the many commentaries written as well.

Thanks for sharing. Cats

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So where do you think conviction of sin, or even doubt itself comes from??? Many assume it is from the devil? But, what if doubt over salvation is the Holy Spirit's work of calling one "out of sin"??? And to renounce that doubt, would be blaspheming the Holy Spirit, rather than fearing the judgment of the Lord, as He intends, and thereby being set free from sin, rather than continuing on in it, with no fear of the Lord?

Just a thought.

In His Love,

Suzanne

[Catsmeow]

Romans 8:13-14 13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!"

Sanctification is a process, as indicated by the words: "....putting to death".

If it were not a process, then we would be perfect and flawless in and of ourselves from the moment of our acceptance of Christ.

I have not achieved perfection yet, nor have I met anyone who has.

[tsth]

Hi cats,

I wasn't sure, was your above post in response to my post? If so, I wasn't sure as to how? As I was talking about "conviction" of sin, not being perfect, but the response to conviction, which is vital to one's walk with the Lord.

In His Love,

Suzanne

[tsth]

Sanctification is a process, as indicated by the words: "....putting to death".

If it were not a process, then we would be perfect and flawless in and of ourselves from the moment of our acceptance of Christ.

I have not achieved perfection yet, nor have I met anyone who has.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually cats, the term used is "put to death", not putting. As used in KJV, which is the version used for the Greek study.

In His Love,

Suzanne

[EricH]

Sanctification is a process, as indicated by the words: "....putting to death".

If it were not a process, then we would be perfect and flawless in and of ourselves from the moment of our acceptance of Christ.

I have not achieved perfection yet, nor have I met anyone who has.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually cats, the term used is "put to death", not putting. As used in KJV, which is the version used for the Greek study.

In His Love,

Suzanne

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

When you say the KJV is the version used for Greek study, what do you mean? By whom? It is not generally accepted that the KJV is the most faithful to the original texts. NASB is actually the most faithful word for word. Actually the best tool for Greek study is the Greek NT. Anything else contains someone elses interperative decisions.

In Romans 8:13-14 the verb for putting to death is in the present indicative active which indicates ongoing action in the eyes of the author. It is in the same tense as the verb "live" which is not if you "lived" according to the flesh, but if you are "living" or live according to the flesh. KJV says "put to death". That implies current action. That does not imply completed or past action, That would be you "have put to death".

for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Rom 8:13 NASB

For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Rom 8:13 KJV