Casting lots?

[bluesky]

I was introduced to tabletop role playing games recently which led to an introduction to dice - I didn't know dice existed in forms beyond the six-sided version!

Of course this led me to do some research about these interesting and surprisingly ancient little objects.  Something I was surprised to learn was that dice have been used since antiquity, and that "casting lots" in the Bible likely referred to the use of dice.

I find this very interesting and to be honest I've read the passage about casting lots so many times but never really thought about what exactly that referred to.

Just wondering if anyone knows anything else about casting lots, or can share some good historical references I could read about the activity.

Thank you!

[Willa]

The Romans gambled for Jesus' cloak by casting lots.   However, the Jews used the Urim and Thummin to ask God questions.  

I am personally opposed to gambling because the motive is usually greed.  

[Michael37]

1 hour ago, bluesky said:

I was introduced to tabletop role playing games recently which led to an introduction to dice - I didn't know dice existed in forms beyond the six-sided version!

Of course this led me to do some research about these interesting and surprisingly ancient little objects.  Something I was surprised to learn was that dice have been used since antiquity, and that "casting lots" in the Bible likely referred to the use of dice.

I find this very interesting and to be honest I've read the passage about casting lots so many times but never really thought about what exactly that referred to.

Just wondering if anyone knows anything else about casting lots, or can share some good historical references I could read about the activity.

Thank you!

Hi bluesky,

Here's a verse for you. The word of interest is "sleight" which is the English meaning inferred from an interesting Greek word "kubos" as shown below in the Strong's Concordance insert.

Eph 4:14
(14)  That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

Strongs G2940
κυβεία
kubeia
koo-bi'-ah
From κύβος kubos (a “cube”, that is, die for playing); gambling, that is, (figuratively) artifice or fraud: - sleight.
Total KJV occurrences: 1

[GandalfTheWise]

On 8/10/2019 at 1:08 AM, bluesky said:

Just wondering if anyone knows anything else about casting lots, or can share some good historical references I could read about the activity.

Here's a link to a search on Biblegateway for all occurrences of "lots" in the NIV.   https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=lots&qs_version=NIV&limit=50

[EDIT: It came to my attention that some verses (e.g. Prov 16:33 and 18:18) use the singular word "lot".  Thus the link I provided here only catches some references.]

Casting lots seems to be associated with both getting divine guidance and something akin to gambling when people were splitting up loot.

In the OT, at times lots seemed to be a way of getting spiritual guidance for decisions.  At times, it was God giving the answer.  At times, it appears to be divination.  And then at other times, it seems like God was guiding it even though an unbeliever was doing it.

In the NT, there are two main examples.  The first (which is in a few verses) is the soldiers casting lots for Jesus' garments.   Then there is the passage that is rather confounding for Christians in Acts 1:12-26.  Here is a part of that.   23 So they nominated two men: Joseph called Barsabbas (also known as Justus) and Matthias. 24 Then they prayed, “Lord, you know everyone’s heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen 25 to take over this apostolic ministry, which Judas left to go where he belongs.” 26 Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles.  (Acts 1:23-26 NIV)   Some Christians dismiss this as Peter and the apostles missing God's will completely.  Others take it as a practice that is at times used by Christians.  I'm aware of one denomination which specifically approves the practice but under strict guidelines and oversight by elders. 

It's interesting looking at the Acts 1 passage in light of modern Christian leadership selection.   Some denominations would hold a vote among all the believers present and they'd have voted between Joseph and Matthias announcing the winner after counting votes.   Some denominations would have Peter choose between them and proclaim who was chosen.  Some denominations would have Peter and the other 10 apostles discuss this privately to decide as a group and then announce who was chosen.   As it was, they put forward two strong candidates and used a method in which no human was going to have an influence on and they were confident God guided that.   There are many Christians who disagree among these methods of choosing leaders and have their favorite method which they are convinced the Bible teaches.

Overall, there are some Christians who outright dismiss the practice as being unnecessary and potentially occult in nature because we have the Bible and Holy Spirit in us to guide us.  As far as I can tell, those Christians who do accept the practice as one means God uses for guidance do not treat it lightly and only use it on occasion as they feel God is leading them that way.

[BeauJangles]

On 8/9/2019 at 11:08 PM, bluesky said:

I was introduced to tabletop role playing games recently which led to an introduction to dice - I didn't know dice existed in forms beyond the six-sided version!

I see you have gotten yourself into a game such as Dungeons & Dragons. Not a good plan. 

Edited August 11, 2019 by BeauJangles

[JustPassingThru]

1 hour ago, maryjayne said:

I think thats why Saul/Paul became and apostle. He was Gods choice, not mans choice through casting lots, and Barnabas was not part of Gods choice. Paul was the 12th Apostle, the replacement for Judas.

Dear sister, please understand I'm saying this in brotherly love as you have requested in your signature, ...it was Matthias who was chosen to replace Judas, ...Proverbs teaches man casts the lot, but God gives the answer, we must remember the 11 disciples were using the only method they knew, ...this was before they were filled with the Holy Spirit and were taught to rely on His guidance, Matthias was God's 12th Apostle to go to the lost sheep of Israel, in Jerusalem, Judea and then to the rest of the world where ever they had been scattered.

Paul was designated as the Apostle to us Gentiles and shouldn't we praise God for choosing Him, a former Pharisee who considered us Gentiles as just wood to stoke the fires of Hell, ...who by revelation from the Holy Spirit has taught us Church doctrine and freed us from Jewish legalism.  

Lord bless precious 

[Jayne]

2 minutes ago, JustPassingThru said:

Dear sister, please understand I'm saying this in brotherly love as you have requested in your signature, ...it was Matthias who was chosen to replace Judas, ...Proverbs teaches man casts the lot, but God gives the answer, we must remember the 11 disciples were using the only method they knew, ...this was before they were filled with the Holy Spirit and were taught to rely on His guidance, Matthias was God's 12th Apostle to go to the lost sheep of Israel, in Jerusalem, Judea and then to the rest of the world where ever they had been scattered.

Paul was designated as the Apostle to us Gentiles and shouldn't we praise God for choosing Him, a former Pharisee who considered us Gentiles as just wood to stoke the fires of Hell, ...who by revelation from the Holy Spirit has taught us Church doctrine and freed us from Jewish legalism.  

Lord bless precious 

Also, Peter did the right thing in the right order to select the 12th apostle - Matthias.

•  They obeyed Jesus in his final directions before he ascended.  They went back into the upper room:  The 11, Mary, the group of women who had supported Jesus financially, and Jesus' brothers.  They prayed constantly.
• Later Peter spoke to 120 believers about what the Old Testament prophesied about Judas and his replacement.  He cited a couple of Psalms.
•  Then he said that the new 12th had to have the same qualifications that they did.  That makes sense to me.  I've never thought about that before typing this reply.  They had to have been around Christ and the original 12 since Christ's baptism and like themselves, the new man must be a witness to Christ's resurrection.
•  They nominated two men.  They prayed for God to do the choosing.  They cast lots as prescribed by the Old Testament.  The lot fell to Matthias.

Paul WAS an apostle.  But his assignment was not like that of the 12.  His was to spread the same gospel to different people groups.

[BeauJangles]

On 8/9/2019 at 11:08 PM, bluesky said:

I was introduced to tabletop role playing games recently which led to an introduction to dice - I didn't know dice existed in forms beyond the six-sided version!

Brothers and Sisters, 

I'm sorry to attempt changing focus on these passages of scriptures, and well written commentaries. But the fact of the matter is, the OP here in this case is getting involved with either Dungeons & Dragons, or something similar to it. Multi-sided dice are notoriously used in these games. I have personal experience with this, so please trust me about it. We need to encourage our new member to avoid this kind of gaming at all costs. It's seriously playing with hell-fire. Just thought you all should know. God bless. 

Shalom, 

David/BeauJangles

[Jayne]

10 minutes ago, BeauJangles said:

Brothers and Sisters, 

I'm sorry to attempt changing focus on these passages of scriptures, and well written commentaries. But the fact of the matter is, the OP here in this case is getting involved with either Dungeons & Dragons, or something similar to it. Multi-sided dice are notoriously used in these games. I have personal experience with this, so please trust me about it. We need to encourage our new member to avoid this kind of gaming at all costs. It's seriously playing with hell-fire. Just thought you all should know. God bless. 

Shalom, 

David/BeauJangles

Thank you.

Here is a link from CARM telling what the lots were and what they were used for and why/when they STOPPED being used.  They weren't dice, per se.

https://carm.org/what-casting-lots-in-the-bible

Dungeons and Dragons = Nope. Not good for the Christian.

Edited August 11, 2019 by Jayne

[Michael37]

4 hours ago, Jayne said:

Thank you.

Here is a link from CARM telling what the lots were and what they were used for and why/when they STOPPED being used.  They weren't dice, per se.

https://carm.org/what-casting-lots-in-the-bible

Dungeons and Dragons = Nope. Not good for the Christian.

Rock, paper, scissors came later...maybe 4th Century.