The fulness of the Gentiles

[iamlamad]

21 minutes ago, Gentle-Warrior said:

Covenant Israel was judged in AD 70. That means that the only people that God has and will ever have are those who are in Christ. Jews who come to Christ become part of us and are also called Christians. It is my opinion that the presuppositions and imaginations of the church about the future have gone off the deep end. Most of it is plain fantasy.

I believe in the Second Coming of Christ that will end this era forever in order usher eternity with a new heavens and a new earth where righteousness dwells.  

All you are doing is calling God a liar. Satan has been trying now for almost 6000 years to prove God to lie. The truth is, God CAN'T lie. You have been avoiding the right scriptures. May I suggest you start with Ezekiel 37?

Eze: 47: ¹³ This is what the Sovereign Lord says: “These are the boundaries of the land that you will divide among the twelve tribes of Israel as their inheritance, with two portions for Joseph. ¹⁴ You are to divide it equally among them. Because I swore with uplifted hand to give it to your ancestors, this land will become your inheritance.

God has allready said which tribe will be where during the millennium.

[iamlamad]

56 minutes ago, choir loft said:

Like I said.  My mind withers in the light of your wisdom and interpretation.   You are so fortunate to be so wise and unapproachable in your insight.   

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Keep singing in the choir! Maybe you will get the messages of the songs. Ever sing "I'll Fly Away?"  Or did you refuse to sing that one?  how about "I've God a Mansion..?"

[Gentle-Warrior]

12 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

All you are doing is calling God a liar. Satan has been trying now for almost 6000 years to prove God to lie. The truth is, God CAN'T lie. You have been avoiding the right scriptures. May I suggest you start with Ezekiel 37?

Eze: 47: ¹³ This is what the Sovereign Lord says: “These are the boundaries of the land that you will divide among the twelve tribes of Israel as their inheritance, with two portions for Joseph. ¹⁴ You are to divide it equally among them. Because I swore with uplifted hand to give it to your ancestors, this land will become your inheritance.

God has allready said which tribe will be where during the millennium.

Why do you believe that I'm calling God a liar? By the way, if you take scriptures that strictly belong to the old covenant (OT), you are actually ignoring a biblical principle that states that the NT reveals, completes and fulfills the OT through the redemption in Jesus Christ. So, if you take Ez. 47:13-14 out of a hat and simply use it to prove your point, you fail in not recognizing the cross and the gospel that went forth to announce the good news of salvation.

Now, since God judged old covenant Israel in the wars of the Jews against the Romans in AD 66-70, fulfilling the Lord's prediction about Jerusalem, (Mat 23:34-39, Lk 11:49-51), in what way am I saying something that is not true?

[dhchristian]

1 hour ago, choir loft said:

DISPENSATIONALISM was conceived by John Nelson Darby in the 19th century.   Google it.   Darby is considered to be the father of Dispensationalism.    Educate yourself, please. 

https://biblereasons.com/dispensationalism-and-the-early-church-fathers/

In this paper, I will show that dispensationalism was not the invention of a 19th-century Biblical scholar, but that it has roots in the earliest days of the Christian church. 

In this paper Papias and his chiliastic teachings will be examined. What was one of the ways that Irenaeus battled the Gnostics? One of his weapons in Against Heresies was premillennialism and the various ages that God used to bring about His plan.

Other church fathers such as Justin Martyr, Tertullian, and Methodius will have their writings examined to show that they too have a doctrine of ages, or dispensations. Furthermore, other documents from church history will show how the idea of dispensationalism developed and that it is not a modern invention. It is not the intent of this paper to prove that dispensationalism is true, but to prove that it has historical merit and is worthy to be included in theology debate and study.

The system is largely seen as a 19th century Scripture interpretation by John Darby, and subsequently popularized by C.I. Scofield. Scofield’s Scofield Reference Bible was the first book to claim One Million sales with its publisher Oxford University Press[6]. However, as previously mentioned, the idea that the doctrine has only come about in modern times is not wholly accurate[7].

Who Is Papias: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papias_of_Hierapolis

Very little is known of Papias apart from what can be inferred from his own writings. He is described as "an ancient man who was a hearer of John and a companion of Polycarp" by Polycarp's disciple Irenaeus

He Taught What are the Basic tenets of dispensationalism/ Premillennialism. As You can see, He was disciple of John Along with Polycarp So this is going back to the first century Apostolic church.

PAPIAS AND HIS CHILIASTIC TRADITION

Papias of Hierapolis lived from A.D. 60-130, and preceded Justin Martyr in his premillennial views. He wrote five books about the interpretation of Scripture, but large portions of the works are lost. However, the great early church historian, Eusebius, provides us with details about his teachings. The authority that Papias has should not be understated, as he was a disciple of John the Apostle and an associate with Polycarp[11].

In the writings of Papias we see the dispensational teaching of the literal millennial reign of Christ on Earth. One of the hallmarks of dispensationalism is the rebuilding of the Temple in Jerusalem. This was also the view of this great church father, but with a twist. Papias saw the rebuilding of Jerusalem as an essential element for the faithful to receive physical and spiritual blessings[12]. Papias also interpreted Scripture to say that there would be peace on Earth once Christ returned.

Regarding these things Eusebius writes of Papias, “In these he says there would be a certain millennium after the resurrection, and that there would be a corporeal reign of Christ on this very Earth; which things he appears to have imagined, as if they were authorized by the apostolic narrations, not understanding correctly those matters which they propounded mystically in their representations[13].” Though much is lost of the five works of Papias there is a wealth of information that shows dispensational markings 

So Who Is right? Those who hate Darby and Scofield, and Pin the blame for dispensationalism on them, Or the Church Fathers which date back to the Apostles? 

2 hours ago, choir loft said:

You quote scripture nicely, except that you have no idea what the words mean.  You cut and paste to suit your particular ideology AND YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW THE ROOTS OF THE IDEAS YOU CLAIM TO SUPPORT.   As long as you can quote a verse or two you're good with it.   You simply don't acknowledge that men older and wiser than you came up with it first.  

Look into it if you dare......  or don't if you fear that your salvation is at risk if you consider it.

Why Don't you look into the Truth If you dare instead of spouting off hatred for all things dispensational and not even fully comprehending the difference between dispensationalism and Replacement theology. Instead of Googling for your Knowledge, why don't you read the Works of the early church fathers. 

Your Like a Kid who got his hand caught in a cookie jar and denies that he was taking cookies. That is what your equating dispensationalism with replacement theology is like. Sad you cannot admit your errors.

2 hours ago, choir loft said:

Supersessionism/Replacement Theology was rejected by mainstream Christian denominations after World War II because of the holocaust.   Until recently mainstream denominations did not want to appear anti-semitic.  That has changed, however, but that's another subject to be discussed.

Dispensationalism was the Only system that predicted the rebirth of the nation of Israel. Hence the popularity in modern times. Dispensationalists never were anti-Semitic.

I Do Not agree with Dr. David Reagan's eschatology per se, But this article is short and well done.

https://www.raptureforums.com/bible-study/is-dispensationalism-anti-semitic-in-nature/

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. (2 Timothy 2;15) 

 

[dhchristian]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

2 hours ago, Gentle-Warrior said:

Covenant Israel was judged in AD 70. That means that the only people that God has and will ever have are those who are in Christ. Jews who come to Christ become part of us and are also called Christians. It is my opinion that the presuppositions and imaginations of the church about the future have gone off the deep end. Most of it is plain fantasy.

I believe in the Second Coming of Christ that will end this era forever in order usher eternity with a new heavens and a new earth where righteousness dwells.  

All you are doing is calling God a liar. Satan has been trying now for almost 6000 years to prove God to lie. The truth is, God CAN'T lie. You have been avoiding the right scriptures. May I suggest you start with Ezekiel 37?

Eze: 47: ¹³ This is what the Sovereign Lord says: “These are the boundaries of the land that you will divide among the twelve tribes of Israel as their inheritance, with two portions for Joseph. ¹⁴ You are to divide it equally among them. Because I swore with uplifted hand to give it to your ancestors, this land will become your inheritance.

God has allready said which tribe will be where during the millennium.

Can You take this to another Post, I do not want this one closed Down like the other GW ones.

[iamlamad]

7 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

Can You take this to another Post, I do not want this one closed Down like the other GW ones.

Sorry

[choir loft]

13 hours ago, dhchristian said:

https://biblereasons.com/dispensationalism-and-the-early-church-fathers/

In this paper, I will show that dispensationalism was not the invention of a 19th-century Biblical scholar, but that it has roots in the earliest days of the Christian church. 

In this paper Papias and his chiliastic teachings will be examined. What was one of the ways that Irenaeus battled the Gnostics? One of his weapons in Against Heresies was premillennialism and the various ages that God used to bring about His plan.

Other church fathers such as Justin Martyr, Tertullian, and Methodius will have their writings examined to show that they too have a doctrine of ages, or dispensations. Furthermore, other documents from church history will show how the idea of dispensationalism developed and that it is not a modern invention. It is not the intent of this paper to prove that dispensationalism is true, but to prove that it has historical merit and is worthy to be included in theology debate and study.

The system is largely seen as a 19th century Scripture interpretation by John Darby, and subsequently popularized by C.I. Scofield. Scofield’s Scofield Reference Bible was the first book to claim One Million sales with its publisher Oxford University Press[6]. However, as previously mentioned, the idea that the doctrine has only come about in modern times is not wholly accurate[7].

Who Is Papias: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papias_of_Hierapolis

Very little is known of Papias apart from what can be inferred from his own writings. He is described as "an ancient man who was a hearer of John and a companion of Polycarp" by Polycarp's disciple Irenaeus

He Taught What are the Basic tenets of dispensationalism/ Premillennialism. As You can see, He was disciple of John Along with Polycarp So this is going back to the first century Apostolic church.

PAPIAS AND HIS CHILIASTIC TRADITION

Papias of Hierapolis lived from A.D. 60-130, and preceded Justin Martyr in his premillennial views. He wrote five books about the interpretation of Scripture, but large portions of the works are lost. However, the great early church historian, Eusebius, provides us with details about his teachings. The authority that Papias has should not be understated, as he was a disciple of John the Apostle and an associate with Polycarp[11].

In the writings of Papias we see the dispensational teaching of the literal millennial reign of Christ on Earth. One of the hallmarks of dispensationalism is the rebuilding of the Temple in Jerusalem. This was also the view of this great church father, but with a twist. Papias saw the rebuilding of Jerusalem as an essential element for the faithful to receive physical and spiritual blessings[12]. Papias also interpreted Scripture to say that there would be peace on Earth once Christ returned.

Regarding these things Eusebius writes of Papias, “In these he says there would be a certain millennium after the resurrection, and that there would be a corporeal reign of Christ on this very Earth; which things he appears to have imagined, as if they were authorized by the apostolic narrations, not understanding correctly those matters which they propounded mystically in their representations[13].” Though much is lost of the five works of Papias there is a wealth of information that shows dispensational markings 

So Who Is right? Those who hate Darby and Scofield, and Pin the blame for dispensationalism on them, Or the Church Fathers which date back to the Apostles? 

Why Don't you look into the Truth If you dare instead of spouting off hatred for all things dispensational and not even fully comprehending the difference between dispensationalism and Replacement theology. Instead of Googling for your Knowledge, why don't you read the Works of the early church fathers. 

Your Like a Kid who got his hand caught in a cookie jar and denies that he was taking cookies. That is what your equating dispensationalism with replacement theology is like. Sad you cannot admit your errors.

Dispensationalism was the Only system that predicted the rebirth of the nation of Israel. Hence the popularity in modern times. Dispensationalists never were anti-Semitic.

I Do Not agree with Dr. David Reagan's eschatology per se, But this article is short and well done.

https://www.raptureforums.com/bible-study/is-dispensationalism-anti-semitic-in-nature/

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. (2 Timothy 2;15) 

 

DISPENSATIONALISM - as it is presently known and referred to was formulated by John Nelson Darby.  Look it up or better still admit its true nature.

Some of its principle arguments, including anti-semitic attitudes, predate Darby's time.   Specifically the notion that Israel and the church are separate.

In order to fill the logical gap in this anti-Biblical agenda, the idea of Spiritual Israel was formulated.  That doesn't exist in the Bible either. 

All sorts of argumentative acrobatics have to be completed to explain this aberration.  The result of much of it is rejection of God's people Israel from Bible studies and personal philosophies.   Protestants are known to hate Jews and anything that smells of Jewish law anyway, so why not dump out the baby with the bath water all at the same time?  Proof positive of my assertion is the common religious slogan heard in every protestant church, "we are saved by grace, not law."  Ever heard that?  I'm sure you have even if you deny it.   The truth is that we ARE saved by the requirements of the law.  Grace is given that we may live by the LAW and thus please God who gave it to us.  It's NOT given so as to allow us to be spiritually tickled on Sunday morning and to sin like the devil itself throughout the week.  "Go out and sin this week that grace may abound," is advice once given at the end of a sermon I heard.  It was uttered by the Dean of a well known Bible college.  It is NOT Biblical.

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." - Jesus as quoted in Matthew 5:17

The problem here is double-minded protestant thinking.  They know not the LAW and reject it out of hand (except for tithing, which is far too convenient for them to lose).  Protestants have no clue at all why or how the LAW is involved in the process of redemption except possibly that it somehow convicts them of sin - and even then they aren't too sure how it works.

Dispensationalism or whatever one chooses to call it comes along and sets a whole new standard for definition of the gospel and the religious world view of history.   Its wrong right down the line, but adherents fanatically refuse to admit their error.   They are rather like the explorers of Columbus' day who believed if they sailed too far from their accustomed home port they'd fall off the world.

FOR THOSE WHO THINK WE'VE GOTTEN OFF TRACK, consider that the Fullness of the Gentiles can be historically and prophetically tracked and verified.  The date was June 1967 and the event was liberation of the city of Jerusalem by the Israel Defense Force.  From that time forward the church has experienced decline, confusion, and increasing disrespect.  

Every poll and statistic (except the skewed ones maintained by churches to justify their budgets) recognizes this fact even if brain dead protestants don't.  Attendance is down.   Contributions are down.  Social acceptance is down.  TV ads petition viewers to contact lawyers to establish litigation against churches and church leaders who have attacked them and their children.  Adulterous affairs by church leaders are ignored.  Churches now provide comfortable environments for teens to explore their sexual creativity - even under the roof of the houses of prayer.  Even the pope expressed concern that Europe, once the seat of Christian influence has become secularized.   America isn't far behind.   We have a church on every street corner, but their voice in our communities has reduced to less than a whisper.   The salt has lost its saltiness.   The church is Ichabod (1 Samuel 4:21) 

There is no such thing as spiritual Israel.  

It is certainly possible to conjure up scripture verses to justify this demonic doctrine, but the context of the Bible suggests otherwise.  Spiritual Israel was invented to subvert and supplant the true role of the real actual Israel and Jewish people in God's plan of redemption.  Instead of redemption being from the Jews it's now seated in the church, whatever and wherever that may be (either certified licensed practitioners of the religion or an ethereal collection of ghosts).  The problem with the logic is that Christians cannot agree on which 'church' is in charge of anything.  In truth the church, either worldly or ethereal, isn't in charge of anything except an odd misplaced hubris.

A person saved by grace is united with Christ as a Jew (Romans 2:29).  Jew and gentile are united as the people of God - as Jews, not Bible thumping fanatic American evangelical protestants.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Edited September 27, 2019 by choir loft

[dhchristian]

42 minutes ago, choir loft said:

In order to fill the logical gap in this anti-Biblical agenda, the idea of Spiritual Israel was formulated.  That doesn't exist in the Bible either. 

The phrase spiritual Israel is used in two primary contexts. The first is as a reference to the entire body of Christian believers, in distinction to the political or racial people of Israel. Spiritual Israel is also sometimes used to suggest concepts related to replacement theology, in which the promises directed toward Israel are now given to the Church, instead.

https://www.gotquestions.org/spiritual-Israel.html

Once again, another Replacement theology concept you ascribe to dispensationalists, which shows your ignorance of Dispensationalism. Here is the rest of the article. Dispensationalists agree with the first reference, not the second reference used by Replacement theologists. The scriptural proof for the first is found below. (If you go to the link you can hover over the verses themselves and read them.)

Galatians 6:16 refers to the “Israel of God.” Given how frequently Paul dismisses ethic or national divisions in this same letter (Galatians 3:26; 4:5–7; 6:15), it is unlikely that he encourages such divisions here. Instead, he refers to the readers as being similar to Isaac: they are the “children of promise” (Galatians 4:28). Paul has a spiritual group in mind in Galatians 6:16, not an ethnic one. This reference to spiritual Israel is clear enough, but not every reference by Paul to Israel is spiritual in nature. Some, such as Romans 9:4, are national and literal. The context is key.

There are other places in the New Testament that suggest a “spiritual Israel” in that they echo terms used in the Old Testament to refer to the Israelites. First Peter 2:9 uses the same terminology as Exodus 19:5–6 in reference to Christians. Galatians 3:29 uses the term heirs, as does Isaiah 65:9. All Christians are “fellow citizens” and members of the house of God, according to Ephesians 2:12–13. Romans 10:12 also says the same—there is no national preference with respect to salvation. Just as we become spiritual “sons of Abraham” by faith (Galatians 3:7), so we can be considered “spiritual Israel” when we receive Christ. In the sense that ethnicity and politics have no relationship to salvation, the term spiritual Israel presents no noteworthy problems.

Replacement theology, on the other hand, uses the concept of a “spiritual Israel” differently. Replacement theology essentially teaches that the church has replaced Israel in God’s plan and that the many promises God made to Israel are fulfilled in the Church instead—Old Testament prophecies are allegorized in order to make them applicable to the church. Replacement theology presents major theological problems, because Scripture says that God has not forgotten or changed His promises to Israel (see Romans 11:1–2, 11, 23, 26, 29). Teaching that promotes a “spiritual Israel,” in the sense that the Church is the focus of God’s prophetic promises for Israel, is not biblically valid.

57 minutes ago, choir loft said:

Protestants are known to hate Jews and anything that smells of Jewish law anyway, so why not dump out the baby with the bath water all at the same time?

This is a childish and false accusation. If anything Protestant evangelicals are overly Zionistic in their approach, to the point that they can be deceived by such things as Noahidism. 

 

1 hour ago, choir loft said:

The truth is that we ARE saved by the requirements of the law.  Grace is given that we may live by the LAW and thus please God who gave it to us.  It's NOT given so as to allow us to be spiritually tickled on Sunday morning and to sin like the devil itself throughout the week.  "Go out and sin this week that grace may abound," is advice once given at the end of a sermon I heard.  It was uttered by the Dean of a well known Bible college.  It is NOT Biblical.

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." - Jesus as quoted in Matthew 5:17

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Romans 8:1-4)

Do you know the difference between the LAW of the Spirit of LIFE, and the Law of Sin and death? I think not for you are still abiding in the Law of Sin and death and trusting in your own flesh to save you. You see when You walk by the Law of the Spirit of Life you produce Spiritual Fruit, But when You walk by the Law of sin and death, You produce no fruit, for the Obedience you show produces self-righteousness, But when you walk by the Law of The Spirit of Life, the righteousness of the Law is fulfilled in us, who walk not after the Spirit. I Love the Torah, as it is the schoolmaster that brings us to the cross and faith. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. (Gal. 3:24-25) After that we walk by the Spirit. The Spirit will not lead you into sin, and will also produce the fruit of the Spirit which the Torah alone could not do.But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. (Gal. 5:22-23) So For example The Torah tells us Not to commit adultery, But the Law of the Spirit of life removes the Lust in our lives that leads to adultery. Think of the sermon on the Mount. So You can be obedient to the Torah and not murder someone Physically, But you still have the Hatred in your Heart for them, because you have never learned by walking in the Law of the Spirit of Life to LOVE your enemies, and in Meekness bless those who persecute you. This is what Jesus Means when He says He is come to FULFILL THE LAW. This is not saying go out and sin, but this is a higher standard than the Torah. You are missing out on the entirety of the POWER of the Spirit when you walk in the Torah. For without faith it is impossible to please God. You are trying to please him with your works without faith. But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. (Heb. 11:6)

1 hour ago, choir loft said:

The problem here is double-minded protestant thinking.  They know not the LAW and reject it out of hand (except for tithing, which is far too convenient for them to lose).  Protestants have no clue at all why or how the LAW is involved in the process of redemption except possibly that it somehow convicts them of sin - and even then they aren't too sure how it works.

Dispensationalism or whatever one chooses to call it comes along and sets a whole new standard for definition of the gospel and the religious world view of history.   Its wrong right down the line, but adherents fanatically refuse to admit their error.   They are rather like the explorers of Columbus' day who believed if they sailed too far from their accustomed home port they'd fall off the world.

After reading the Above do you still make the same blatant generalization of Evangelical Christianity? Because this is no different than racism in that you are lumping and an generalizing all into a group who teach dispensationalism. I And Most of the people I know who are Christians do not hate the Law, But we Live by a HIGHER law, that is the Law of the Spirit of Life. The Law of the Spirit of life empowers us to do what the Law of sin and death could not do, and that is to produce the fruit of the Spirit. Using your Columbus analogy, your view is the same as those who nearly committed treason aboard his ships because they did not BELIEVE they would reach land. Instead they wanted to go back. Just Like Israel did not enter the Promise because of unbelief, and were forced to wander in the wilderness for 40 years.

We "Dispensationalist" sing a song in our services called "Trust and Obey for there is no other way" You have left off the Trust, and are accusing us of leaving out the Obey part, and accusation made in ignorance on your Part for you do not even know the differences between what a dispensationalist teaches and what replacement theology teaches. I as a dispensationalist condemn replacement theology for it fails to RIGHTLY divide the Word of God. The same reason why I condemn your theory for it fails to divide the Word of God at all.

1 hour ago, choir loft said:

FOR THOSE WHO THINK WE'VE GOTTEN OFF TRACK, consider that the Fullness of the Gentiles can be historically and prophetically tracked and verified.  The date was June 1967 and the event was liberation of the city of Jerusalem by the Israel Defense Force.  From that time forward the church has experienced decline, confusion, and increasing disrespect.  

Every poll and statistic (except the skewed ones maintained by churches to justify their budgets) recognizes this fact even if brain dead protestants don't.  Attendance is down.   Contributions are down.  Social acceptance is down.  TV ads petition viewers to contact lawyers to establish litigation against churches and church leaders who have attacked them and their children.  Adulterous affairs by church leaders are ignored.  Churches now provide comfortable environments for teens to explore their sexual creativity - even under the roof of the houses of prayer.  Even the pope expressed concern that Europe, once the seat of Christian influence has become secularized.   America isn't far behind.   We have a church on every street corner, but their voice in our communities has reduced to less than a whisper.   The salt has lost its saltiness.   The church is Ichabod (1 Samuel 4:21) 

There is no such thing as spiritual Israel.  

It is certainly possible to conjure up scripture verses to justify this demonic doctrine, but the context of the Bible suggests otherwise.  Spiritual Israel was invented to subvert and supplant the true role of the real actual Israel and Jewish people in God's plan of redemption.  Instead of redemption being from the Jews it's now seated in the church, whatever and wherever that may be (either certified licensed practitioners of the religion or an ethereal collection of ghosts).  The problem with the logic is that Christians cannot agree on which 'church' is in charge of anything.  In truth the church, either worldly or ethereal, isn't in charge of anything except an odd misplaced hubris.

A person saved by grace is united with Christ as a Jew (Romans 2:29).  Jew and gentile are united as the people of God - as Jews, not Bible thumping fanatic American evangelical protestants.

Yet They failed to take the Holy Mountain, because the time was not yet right, because the fullness of the gentiles is yet to occur. All Your Belittling of the church is showing is that you have never encountered the church of the saints, But are basing your decisions on the apostate elements in the church. The Church is not a building or a denomination or and institution of man, but a Gathering of children, and heirs of the promise of The Cross and Christ Jesus. We walk by faith and not by sight, and what you see with your fleshly eyes shows your spiritual blindness of the Church of the Living God. The Fulness of the Gentiles is coming in, and through our mercy towards Israel the nation, we will bring their fulness in as well that all things may be united in Christ Jesus in fulness. Your lack of vision belies your empty hatred that your comments expose. In Other words, Your fruit are showing and they ain't good fruit!

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, choir loft said:

DISPENSATIONALISM - as it is presently known and referred to was formulated by John Nelson Darby.  Look it up or better still admit its true nature.

Some of its principle arguments, including anti-semitic attitudes, predate Darby's time.   Specifically the notion that Israel and the church are separate.

In order to fill the logical gap in this anti-Biblical agenda, the idea of Spiritual Israel was formulated.  That doesn't exist in the Bible either. 

All sorts of argumentative acrobatics have to be completed to explain this aberration.  The result of much of it is rejection of God's people Israel from Bible studies and personal philosophies.   Protestants are known to hate Jews and anything that smells of Jewish law anyway, so why not dump out the baby with the bath water all at the same time?  Proof positive of my assertion is the common religious slogan heard in every protestant church, "we are saved by grace, not law."  Ever heard that?  I'm sure you have even if you deny it.   The truth is that we ARE saved by the requirements of the law.  Grace is given that we may live by the LAW and thus please God who gave it to us.  It's NOT given so as to allow us to be spiritually tickled on Sunday morning and to sin like the devil itself throughout the week.  "Go out and sin this week that grace may abound," is advice once given at the end of a sermon I heard.  It was uttered by the Dean of a well known Bible college.  It is NOT Biblical.

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." - Jesus as quoted in Matthew 5:17

The problem here is double-minded protestant thinking.  They know not the LAW and reject it out of hand (except for tithing, which is far too convenient for them to lose).  Protestants have no clue at all why or how the LAW is involved in the process of redemption except possibly that it somehow convicts them of sin - and even then they aren't too sure how it works.

Dispensationalism or whatever one chooses to call it comes along and sets a whole new standard for definition of the gospel and the religious world view of history.   Its wrong right down the line, but adherents fanatically refuse to admit their error.   They are rather like the explorers of Columbus' day who believed if they sailed too far from their accustomed home port they'd fall off the world.

FOR THOSE WHO THINK WE'VE GOTTEN OFF TRACK, consider that the Fullness of the Gentiles can be historically and prophetically tracked and verified.  The date was June 1967 and the event was liberation of the city of Jerusalem by the Israel Defense Force.  From that time forward the church has experienced decline, confusion, and increasing disrespect.  

Every poll and statistic (except the skewed ones maintained by churches to justify their budgets) recognizes this fact even if brain dead protestants don't.  Attendance is down.   Contributions are down.  Social acceptance is down.  TV ads petition viewers to contact lawyers to establish litigation against churches and church leaders who have attacked them and their children.  Adulterous affairs by church leaders are ignored.  Churches now provide comfortable environments for teens to explore their sexual creativity - even under the roof of the houses of prayer.  Even the pope expressed concern that Europe, once the seat of Christian influence has become secularized.   America isn't far behind.   We have a church on every street corner, but their voice in our communities has reduced to less than a whisper.   The salt has lost its saltiness.   The church is Ichabod (1 Samuel 4:21) 

There is no such thing as spiritual Israel.  

It is certainly possible to conjure up scripture verses to justify this demonic doctrine, but the context of the Bible suggests otherwise.  Spiritual Israel was invented to subvert and supplant the true role of the real actual Israel and Jewish people in God's plan of redemption.  Instead of redemption being from the Jews it's now seated in the church, whatever and wherever that may be (either certified licensed practitioners of the religion or an ethereal collection of ghosts).  The problem with the logic is that Christians cannot agree on which 'church' is in charge of anything.  In truth the church, either worldly or ethereal, isn't in charge of anything except an odd misplaced hubris.

A person saved by grace is united with Christ as a Jew (Romans 2:29).  Jew and gentile are united as the people of God - as Jews, not Bible thumping fanatic American evangelical protestants.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Quoted from a web site:  Darby saw history as a "progressive revelation," and his system sought to explain the stages in God's redemptive plan for the universe. There was nothing especially radical about dividing history into periods. What separated Darby's dispensationalism was his novel method of biblical interpretation, which consisted of a strict literalism, the absolute separation of Israel and the church into two distinct peoples of God, and the separation of the rapture (the "catching away" of the church) from Christ's Second Coming. At the rapture, he said, Christ will come for his saints; and at the Second Coming, he will come with his saints.

progressive revelation  It is truth: God is a self revealing God and over time reveals more.

stages in God's redemptive plan  I think everyone will  admit God's requirements before the law and after the law changed. It changed again after Jesus' resurrection. 

a strict literalism  This is the way all should read the bible. If a verse makes sense literally, take it that way!

the absolute separation of Israel and the church into two distinct peoples of God  I see no problem here: Since Abraham, all his descendants through Isaac are "people of God." God scattered them BECAUSE they were His people. He as brought them back because they are His people. I have never heard of "spiritual Israel," but if it is truth, it must refer to the church! We are grafted into Israel's tree. Today there is only a NATURAL Israel which anyone can find on a map of the world.

the separation of the rapture (the "catching away" of the church) from Christ's Second Coming  I see no problems here either: this is the truth of scripture. 

Fullness of the Gentiles   You are MILES off from truth here. 

Romans 11:25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

This term is related to the Gentile church of today: at the rapture, THEN the  fullness of the Gentiles will have come in.  

About the only thing I can agree with you on is "Spiritual Israel."

I will add this: for those that disagree with most of what Darby Taught, you are also disagreeing with the bible correctly understood. 

[iamlamad]

20 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

The phrase spiritual Israel is used in two primary contexts. The first is as a reference to the entire body of Christian believers, in distinction to the political or racial people of Israel. Spiritual Israel is also sometimes used to suggest concepts related to replacement theology, in which the promises directed toward Israel are now given to the Church, instead.

https://www.gotquestions.org/spiritual-Israel.html

Once again, another Replacement theology concept you ascribe to dispensationalists, which shows your ignorance of Dispensationalism. Here is the rest of the article. Dispensationalists agree with the first reference, not the second reference used by Replacement theologists. The scriptural proof for the first is found below. (If you go to the link you can hover over the verses themselves and read them.)

Galatians 6:16 refers to the “Israel of God.” Given how frequently Paul dismisses ethic or national divisions in this same letter (Galatians 3:26; 4:5–7; 6:15), it is unlikely that he encourages such divisions here. Instead, he refers to the readers as being similar to Isaac: they are the “children of promise” (Galatians 4:28). Paul has a spiritual group in mind in Galatians 6:16, not an ethnic one. This reference to spiritual Israel is clear enough, but not every reference by Paul to Israel is spiritual in nature. Some, such as Romans 9:4, are national and literal. The context is key.

There are other places in the New Testament that suggest a “spiritual Israel” in that they echo terms used in the Old Testament to refer to the Israelites. First Peter 2:9 uses the same terminology as Exodus 19:5–6 in reference to Christians. Galatians 3:29 uses the term heirs, as does Isaiah 65:9. All Christians are “fellow citizens” and members of the house of God, according to Ephesians 2:12–13. Romans 10:12 also says the same—there is no national preference with respect to salvation. Just as we become spiritual “sons of Abraham” by faith (Galatians 3:7), so we can be considered “spiritual Israel” when we receive Christ. In the sense that ethnicity and politics have no relationship to salvation, the term spiritual Israel presents no noteworthy problems.

Replacement theology, on the other hand, uses the concept of a “spiritual Israel” differently. Replacement theology essentially teaches that the church has replaced Israel in God’s plan and that the many promises God made to Israel are fulfilled in the Church instead—Old Testament prophecies are allegorized in order to make them applicable to the church. Replacement theology presents major theological problems, because Scripture says that God has not forgotten or changed His promises to Israel (see Romans 11:1–2, 11, 23, 26, 29). Teaching that promotes a “spiritual Israel,” in the sense that the Church is the focus of God’s prophetic promises for Israel, is not biblically valid.

This is a childish and false accusation. If anything Protestant evangelicals are overly Zionistic in their approach, to the point that they can be deceived by such things as Noahidism. 

 

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Romans 8:1-4)

Do you know the difference between the LAW of the Spirit of LIFE, and the Law of Sin and death? I think not for you are still abiding in the Law of Sin and death and trusting in your own flesh to save you. You see when You walk by the Law of the Spirit of Life you produce Spiritual Fruit, But when You walk by the Law of sin and death, You produce no fruit, for the Obedience you show produces self-righteousness, But when you walk by the Law of The Spirit of Life, the righteousness of the Law is fulfilled in us, who walk not after the Spirit. I Love the Torah, as it is the schoolmaster that brings us to the cross and faith. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. (Gal. 3:24-25) After that we walk by the Spirit. The Spirit will not lead you into sin, and will also produce the fruit of the Spirit which the Torah alone could not do.But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. (Gal. 5:22-23) So For example The Torah tells us Not to commit adultery, But the Law of the Spirit of life removes the Lust in our lives that leads to adultery. Think of the sermon on the Mount. So You can be obedient to the Torah and not murder someone Physically, But you still have the Hatred in your Heart for them, because you have never learned by walking in the Law of the Spirit of Life to LOVE your enemies, and in Meekness bless those who persecute you. This is what Jesus Means when He says He is come to FULFILL THE LAW. This is not saying go out and sin, but this is a higher standard than the Torah. You are missing out on the entirety of the POWER of the Spirit when you walk in the Torah. For without faith it is impossible to please God. You are trying to please him with your works without faith. But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. (Heb. 11:6)

After reading the Above do you still make the same blatant generalization of Evangelical Christianity? Because this is no different than racism in that you are lumping and an generalizing all into a group who teach dispensationalism. I And Most of the people I know who are Christians do not hate the Law, But we Live by a HIGHER law, that is the Law of the Spirit of Life. The Law of the Spirit of life empowers us to do what the Law of sin and death could not do, and that is to produce the fruit of the Spirit. Using your Columbus analogy, your view is the same as those who nearly committed treason aboard his ships because they did not BELIEVE they would reach land. Instead they wanted to go back. Just Like Israel did not enter the Promise because of unbelief, and were forced to wander in the wilderness for 40 years.

We "Dispensationalist" sing a song in our services called "Trust and Obey for there is no other way" You have left off the Trust, and are accusing us of leaving out the Obey part, and accusation made in ignorance on your Part for you do not even know the differences between what a dispensationalist teaches and what replacement theology teaches. I as a dispensationalist condemn replacement theology for it fails to RIGHTLY divide the Word of God. The same reason why I condemn your theory for it fails to divide the Word of God at all.

Yet They failed to take the Holy Mountain, because the time was not yet right, because the fullness of the gentiles is yet to occur. All Your Belittling of the church is showing is that you have never encountered the church of the saints, But are basing your decisions on the apostate elements in the church. The Church is not a building or a denomination or and institution of man, but a Gathering of children, and heirs of the promise of The Cross and Christ Jesus. We walk by faith and not by sight, and what you see with your fleshly eyes shows your spiritual blindness of the Church of the Living God. The Fulness of the Gentiles is coming in, and through our mercy towards Israel the nation, we will bring their fulness in as well that all things may be united in Christ Jesus in fulness. Your lack of vision belies your empty hatred that your comments expose. In Other words, Your fruit are showing and they ain't good fruit!

This is a good post. I hope you take notes here, Choir Loft!"