The fulness of the Gentiles

[choir loft]

1 hour ago, dhchristian said:

After reading the Above do you still make the same blatant generalization of Evangelical Christianity? Because this is no different than racism in that you are lumping and an generalizing all into a group who teach dispensationalism. I And Most of the people I know who are Christians do not hate the Law, But we Live by a HIGHER law, that is the Law of the Spirit of Life. The Law of the Spirit of life empowers us to do what the Law of sin and death could not do, and that is to produce the fruit of the Spirit. 

Your post proves my point.

After all the rubbish is cleared away you write what is truly in your heart. You live by a higher law.  THAT is the protestant position in a nutshell.  Your statement abolishes Biblical LAW, which Christ said would NOT be abolished.   It is NOT replaced by your 'higher law', but fulfilled by Christ.   And in all the rhetoric, you've proven that evangelicals have no idea what that is......

When you wrote, "the law of the spirit empowers us to do what the law of sin and death could not do" you subvert THE LAW and substitute your own - or rather an evangelical version of law - a 'higher version' as you've written. The law of which you speak is what protestant evangelists also call grace, but not the grace of God.   Evangelical grace is used as a license to sin as I explained and also gave an example earlier (which you didn't read). 

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LICENSE TO SIN.

Biblical grace is what enables the believer to live by THE LAW in ways that a person can not do unaided and uninspired.  The issue here is BUZZ WORDS and empty RELIGIOUS SLOGANS, specifically your 'higher law'.  That's a buzz word, btw.  There is no such thing as a higher law.  Don't get me wrong.  I've heard all the sermons too.  They talk incessantly about a higher law, so as to confuse the congregation with happy talk.  I actually heard one preacher admit it right there during the sermon.  "I preach happy talk," he said.  "To fill seats and make folks smile."  You refuse to admit the duplicity among evangelicals as well as their ignorance.   Why?

God forbid anyone should be convicted of sin and a need for repentance.  Your 'higher law' is nothing but soft soap fed to gullible people who don't want to have to make real choices.  They just want to go off to a nearby restaurant after services and enjoy a nice meal.  They simply don't care about God's LAW.  Do you?  

The LAW that Jesus fulfilled and which the apostles preached STILL STANDS.  No part has been abolished or changed at all. (Matthew 5:18)

The way to subvert the LAW or any law is to substitute redefined words and meanings for traditional words and meanings.   Wrong = right and right = wrong.  American society in general and evangelicals in particular are susceptible to this egregious abuse of language and intent.  The sad thing is that they aren't aware of it.  When someone like me tries to point it out all their feathers get ruffled and their minds get twisted to the point they cannot and will not THINK.

Protestant evangelicals love to substitute buzz words and slogans for Biblical truth because they are firstly ignorant of it, secondly because they're too lazy to study it and thirdly because their leaders don't know it either.  THE LAW isn't taught studied or preached accurately anywhere in any protestant church.   Believe me, I've been to too many to count the number.   Snippets of the LAW are indeed inserted in some sermons, along with humorous anecdotes, so as to enliven the dull message being preached and keep congregations from falling asleep and crashing onto the floor in a religious coma.

The key issue I have with the ignorant flocks of protestantism is their double-minded thinking.   They will speak, as you do, of firm convictions in one regard while affirming a logical opposite.  Those who haven't been indoctrinated in the use of these false buzz words, the unchurched or unsaved as they're called, ridicule the Biblically illiterate book thumpers.  The lack of Christian education has led to aberrant doctrines and dogmas unparalleled in church history.   The solution would be proper education, but as evangelicals are big on talking and short on doing the problem will persist and fester.

In closing I wish to repeat that I've been haunting protestant churches of all types for longer than you've been breathing the air of earth.  I know all the buzz words and all the phoney slogans and I've had a belly full of protestant hypocrisy.   You've proven by every post you write you have no ears for any correction.   You don't dare to admit to the duplicity you know and have seen yourself.   God forbid you should admit to it.  Why?  

You don't even pay attention to the fact I told you earlier I KNOW those phrases, yet you persist in your patronizing insults and repeat them to me as if I didn't.  Egad, it would be nice if you read what I write and consider it.

Fortunately for you, your life is being lived in a perfect situation.  You and everyone you know live perfectly and have no need for instruction.  I envy your position.  You are flawless in your every word and your posts glitter like lightning in the night.  You may continue to live your perfect life according to the spirit that guides you - whatever its name may be, but you will miss a great deal of the wonder and beauty of God's LAW when you do.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft....

 

Edited September 27, 2019 by choir loft
scripture reference

[Alive]

Good job, DH!

Your last posts contained a lot, but it seems we only differ on the Pre-trib rapture.

I am not at all convinced of that.

No matter---either way, we keep our eyes on Him.

[dhchristian]

Just now, choir loft said:

Your post proves my point.

After all the rubbish is cleared away you write what is truly in your heart. You live by a higher law.  THAT is the protestant position in a nutshell.  Your statement abolishes Biblical LAW, which Christ said would NOT be abolished.   It is NOT replaced by your 'higher law', but fulfilled by Christ.   And in all the rhetoric, you have no idea what that is......

What I wrote earlier you seem to affirm by your statement "the law of the spirit empowers us to do what the law of sin and death could not do".   WHICH IS - to fulfill the LAW given by God and also fulfilled by Christ.  This law of which you speak and of which you have no idea how it works is also what protestant evangelists call grace, but not the Biblical version.   Evangelical grace is used as a license to sin.  

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LICENSE TO SIN.

Biblical grace is what enables the believer to live by THE LAW in ways that a person can not do unaided and uninspired.  The issue here is BUZZ WORDS and empty RELIGIOUS SLOGANS, specifically your 'higher law'.  Protestant evangelists love to substitute buzz words and slogans for Biblical truth because they are firstly ignorant of it, secondly because they're too lazy to study it and thirdly because their leaders don't know it either.  THE LAW isn't taught studied or preached accurately anywhere in any protestant church.   Believe me, I've been to too many to count the number.   Snippets of the LAW are indeed inserted in some sermons, along with humorous anecdotes, so as to enliven the dull message being preached and keep congregations from falling asleep and crashing onto the floor in a religious coma.

The key issue I have with the ignorant flocks of protestantism is their double-minded thinking.   They will speak, as you do, of firm convictions in one regard while affirming a logical opposite.  Those who haven't been indoctrinated in the use of these false buzz words, the unchurched or unsaved as they're called, ridicule the Biblically illiterate book thumpers.  The lack of Christian education has led to aberrant doctrines and dogmas unparalleled in church history.   The solution would be proper education, but as evangelicals are big on talking and short on doing the problem will persist and fester.

In closing I wish to repeat that I've been haunting protestant churches of all types for longer than you've been breathing the air of earth.  I know all the buzz words and all the phoney slogans and I've had a belly full of protestant hypocrisy.   Because as you've proven by every post you write you have no ears for any correction.   You don't even pay attention to the fact I told you earlier I KNOW those phrases, yet you persist in your patronizing insults and repeat them to me as if I didn't.  Egad, it would be nice if you read what I write and consider it.

Fortunately for you, your life is being lived in a perfect situation.  You and everyone you know live perfectly and have no need for instruction.  I envy your position.  You are flawless in your every word and your posts glitter like lightning in the night.  You may continue to live your perfect life according to the spirit that guides you - whatever its name may be, but you will miss a great deal of the wonder and beauty of God's LAW when you do.

Your statement abolishes biblical law: FALSE accusation... You need to read it again, the Law of the Spirit of life is a Higher law in that this law fulfills the law and changes the condition of the heart so that we no longer hate even our enemies but are capable of loving them. Your view still hates your enemies. This a is a fulfillment of the sermon on the mount.

Evangelical grace is used as a license to sin: False Statement again The Spirit will not lead you to sin, when your life is led by and governed by the Spirit. Again, You do not read very well. But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. (Romans 7:6-8) You see, you fail to grasp the difference between the letter of the Law, and the Spirit of the Law. We Serve in the "Newness of the Spirit of the law." 

Protestant evangelists love to substitute buzz words and slogans for Biblical truth because they are firstly ignorant of it, secondly because they're too lazy to study it and thirdly because their leaders don't know it either.  THE LAW isn't taught studied or preached accurately anywhere in any protestant church. Wrong again. The ten commandments have vibrantly preached in the church throughout History, It is only in the last few 50 or so years that the false teachers have begun preaching a license to sin. If You are referring to the ordinances that make up the 613 Laws of the Torah, then yes, you yourself are breaking most of them, because there is no temple in Jerusalem to fulfill them by. That being said, Jesus is our Passover lamb, By believing in his death burial and resurrection we are fulfilling the Passover. He is our atonement sacrifice thus his sacrifice covers all our sins "Once for All" If You are referring to the laws for eating certain meats, the only law placed upon the gentiles was not to eat meat sacrificed to idols in Acts 15. Kosher laws may be beneficial to your health, I do not dispute that But All things are lawful if received with thanksgiving is what Paul said, not to mention the whole episode with Peter and Cornelius. Christ is a fulfillment of all of these requirements of the Law. His sacrifice was "Once for all"

By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. (Hebrews 10:10,14)

Simply Put, You just have no faith in the FINISHED work of Christ on the cross, and instead think that you can somehow please God without faith, Which simply Put, Is impossible according to scripture. But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. (Hebrews 11:6)

You complain that I use scripture yet you use none? Why is that? Because you cannot find the scriptures to prove your point, I am talking new covenant. You are also ignoring the "New Commandment" that Christ Gave us, and that is to Love one another as he loved us, in that while we were yet enemies Christ died for us. The Word of God that I am quoting you is convicting you and here in is the dilemma for you. Will you resist the conviction of the Holy Ghost, or will you receive HIS conviction and show a heart meet for repentance? I Have encountered many online like you, and most of them build up a wall of defense against this conviction, (Hardening their hearts) because they are unable to receive correction and refuse to repent. There is no way you are obeying all of the Law, and especially the Ordinances, simply because there is no temple to fulfill them in, and indeed there is no need, for those who have Christ Jesus he is the fulfillment of these laws.

you will miss a great deal of the wonder and beauty of God's LAW when you do.

And You are missing out on the Beauty of the cross, which has made us all free from the Law of sin and death and enables and empowers us to live by the Law of the Spirit of Life. The Law of the Spirit of life is like a Picasso next to an elementary schoolchild's art project. There is beauty in both, but one transcends the other into the category of a masterpiece. You are the one that is missing out.

God Bless. Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: (Heb. 3:7-8) 

 

[dhchristian]

22 minutes ago, Alive said:

Good job, DH!

Your last posts contained a lot, but it seems we only differ on the Pre-trib rapture.

I am not at all convinced of that.

No matter---either way, we keep our eyes on Him.

I myself am a Pre-wrath rapture believer, But I Hope the pre-trib people are right. I Understand and accept both positions as viable scripturally, and see them imcumbent upon how we as a church respond to the call of the Spirit.... In other words, we can Hasten his coming, or Delay his coming, Just like Ninevah could delay His wrath by their repentance, But in the opposite, by reaching repentance we can hasten his coming. (2 Peter 3:9-12)

[choir loft]

1 hour ago, dhchristian said:

Your statement abolishes biblical law: FALSE accusation... You need to read it again, the Law of the Spirit of life is a Higher law in that this law fulfills the law and changes the condition of the heart so that we no longer hate even our enemies but are capable of loving them. Your view still hates your enemies. This a is a fulfillment of the sermon on the mount.

Evangelical grace is used as a license to sin: False Statement again The Spirit will not lead you to sin, when your life is led by and governed by the Spirit. Again, You do not read very well. But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. (Romans 7:6-8) You see, you fail to grasp the difference between the letter of the Law, and the Spirit of the Law. We Serve in the "Newness of the Spirit of the law." 

Protestant evangelists love to substitute buzz words and slogans for Biblical truth because they are firstly ignorant of it, secondly because they're too lazy to study it and thirdly because their leaders don't know it either.  THE LAW isn't taught studied or preached accurately anywhere in any protestant church. Wrong again. The ten commandments have vibrantly preached in the church throughout History, It is only in the last few 50 or so years that the false teachers have begun preaching a license to sin. If You are referring to the ordinances that make up the 613 Laws of the Torah, then yes, you yourself are breaking most of them, because there is no temple in Jerusalem to fulfill them by. That being said, Jesus is our Passover lamb, By believing in his death burial and resurrection we are fulfilling the Passover. He is our atonement sacrifice thus his sacrifice covers all our sins "Once for All" If You are referring to the laws for eating certain meats, the only law placed upon the gentiles was not to eat meat sacrificed to idols in Acts 15. Kosher laws may be beneficial to your health, I do not dispute that But All things are lawful if received with thanksgiving is what Paul said, not to mention the whole episode with Peter and Cornelius. Christ is a fulfillment of all of these requirements of the Law. His sacrifice was "Once for all"

By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. (Hebrews 10:10,14)

Simply Put, You just have no faith in the FINISHED work of Christ on the cross, and instead think that you can somehow please God without faith, Which simply Put, Is impossible according to scripture. But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. (Hebrews 11:6)

You complain that I use scripture yet you use none? Why is that? Because you cannot find the scriptures to prove your point, I am talking new covenant. You are also ignoring the "New Commandment" that Christ Gave us, and that is to Love one another as he loved us, in that while we were yet enemies Christ died for us. The Word of God that I am quoting you is convicting you and here in is the dilemma for you. Will you resist the conviction of the Holy Ghost, or will you receive HIS conviction and show a heart meet for repentance? I Have encountered many online like you, and most of them build up a wall of defense against this conviction, (Hardening their hearts) because they are unable to receive correction and refuse to repent. There is no way you are obeying all of the Law, and especially the Ordinances, simply because there is no temple to fulfill them in, and indeed there is no need, for those who have Christ Jesus he is the fulfillment of these laws.

you will miss a great deal of the wonder and beauty of God's LAW when you do.

And You are missing out on the Beauty of the cross, which has made us all free from the Law of sin and death and enables and empowers us to live by the Law of the Spirit of Life. The Law of the Spirit of life is like a Picasso next to an elementary schoolchild's art project. There is beauty in both, but one transcends the other into the category of a masterpiece. You are the one that is missing out.

God Bless. Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: (Heb. 3:7-8) 

 

You are either deliberately obfuscating the discussion or you have no idea what you're writing about.

Abolition of the LAW - In Matthew 5:17 Jesus said the LAW was not abolished because HE had come to fulfill it.  Your statement reflects complete ignorance of the LAW and what Jesus meant by fulfilling it.  What did HE mean by fulfilling the LAW?  What did the LAW require that HE needed to do to fulfill it?  HE NEVER talked about a higher law.  The higher law you speak of is a buzz word and has no meaning at all.  Evidence of this is simple ignorance on your part as to what the LAW required Jesus to do.  Do you know or will you continue to fudge the argument?  The answer is very simple and has nothing to do with abolition of the law or substituting another for it.  Admit it.  You just don't know.

Evangelical law is used as a license to sin - Again you fail to grasp the context of my statement.  I bore witness to several abuses of evangelicals and you sailed on by quoting slogans and scripture that had nothing to do with it.  If you want to quote scripture to describe what evangelicals do, then I suggest several that address hypocrisy. 

Evangelicals love to use buzz words and slogans - I admit here that you come close to admitting evangelical abuses and hypocrisy.  Good job.  I commend you for this admission, however, the Ten Commandments, known by some as the Royal Law, aren't preached in most churches.  I know.  I've been to a lot.   A lot.

The LAW and its logical next step REPENTANCE is almost never preached in evangelical churches.   When was the last time you heard a sermon on repentance in a church?   We are coming up on Jewish High Holy Days wherein Yom Kippur and Sukkot observe the need for each person to count their sins and repent (Yom Kippur) and celebrate forgiveness (Sukkot).  You do tend to wander though when you attempt to misdirect the debate and justify evangelical sins by saying Jews sin also.  You cannot justify Christian sins by blaming Jews for it.  The LAW applies to all.

Your last accusation about my not having faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross is insulting and demeaning.  Based on your own aberrant understanding you cannot judge another.  Since you have taken it upon yourself to judge me, I am therefore able to judge you by your own words.   So I have done.  The funny part is that you have no idea what I'm talking about or even what you are talking about.  I think that's hysterical.

Lest the reader assume I've got a problem with protestant evangelicals, I must also state that the same problem doesn't exist with main line protestant denominations.  They've gone so far into the kingdom of satan that there isn't room enough here to describe it.  Adultery, child molestation, idolatry as well as sex and financial abuses are all common.   Jews aren't immune either.

Jews don't understand grace because they refuse to acknowledge Yeshuah ha-mashiach (Jesus the messiah) as God.  Denying Yeshuah as god also denies His fulfillment of the LAW, therefore they break the LAW at its most important point - their hope of salvation.

Gentiles don't understand the LAW because they are in love with their sin.  I've already stated all the games evangelicals play to deny and subvert the LAW.  They love their darkness and refuse to understand the very bedrock of God's redemptive work.  Therefore their sin is upon them and they will be judged for it.  (1 Peter 4:17)

The solution is that God will have to come down to earth and straighten the mess out personally.  This involves severe judgment and that will not be pleasant by any stretch of the imagination.  Neither will anyone escape it - (another denial of God's handiwork evangelicals love to embrace).

Watch and learn, pilgrim.   Hell is coming and the only people who will escape that will be the dead.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Edited September 27, 2019 by choir loft

[Alive]

2 hours ago, dhchristian said:

I myself am a Pre-wrath rapture believer, But I Hope the pre-trib people are right. I Understand and accept both positions as viable scripturally, and see them imcumbent upon how we as a church respond to the call of the Spirit.... In other words, we can Hasten his coming, or Delay his coming, Just like Ninevah could delay His wrath by their repentance, But in the opposite, by reaching repentance we can hasten his coming. (2 Peter 3:9-12)

I think the so called rapture is when the Lord shows up to begin the 1000 years.

I am not sure what that is called, though.

[dhchristian]

Just now, choir loft said:

Abolition of the LAW - In Matthew 5:17 Jesus said the LAW was not abolished because HE had come to fulfill it.  Your statement reflects complete ignorance of the LAW and what Jesus meant by fulfilling it.  What did HE mean by fulfilling the LAW?  What did the LAW require that HE needed to do to fulfill it?  HE NEVER talked about a higher law.  The higher law you speak of is a buzz word and has no meaning at all.  Evidence of this is simple ignorance on your part as to what the LAW required Jesus to do.  Do you know or will you continue to fudge the argument?  The answer is very simple and has nothing to do with abolition of the law or substituting another for it.  Admit it.  You just don't know.

And fulfill it he did on the cross, Saying "it is finished". That is what you fail to comprehend, the finished work of Christ on the cross. The evidence of the "higher Law is found in the verses from Romans 8 I quoted, the higher Law is the Law of the Spirit of Life, which you have zero comprehension of and cannot negate the Words of Scripture. Jesus Fulfilled the Law By living under the Law and being righteous and by doing so was the Lamb without blemish, The substitutionary sacrifice that covered all the sacrifices found in the Torah. So What then is the Law of the Spirit of Life according to you, Found in Romans 8:2? I suggest you start in Romans 7 and finish around Romans 8:17. 

The New commandment of Christ is found In John 13:34 , John 15:12. You are incapable of fulfilling this commandment for you still walk after the flesh and not by the Spirit for you are looking at fleshly Obedience to the Torah instead of Spiritual Obedience, and you will never understand this until the Spirit teaches you the Truth. 

1 minute ago, choir loft said:

Again you fail to grasp the context of my statement.  I bore witness to several abuses of evangelicals and you sailed on by quoting slogans and scripture that had nothing to do with it.  If you want to quote scripture to describe what evangelicals do, then I suggest several that address hypocrisy. 

You cannot handle the Word of God, Why does scripture bother you so much? Yes there is hypocrisy in the evangelical churches, and I have exposed much of it here on this site, But You are failing to see the Log in Your own eye. Its easy to point the finger its hard to take responsibility for your own flaws. 

 

4 minutes ago, choir loft said:

the Ten Commandments, known by some as the Royal Law, aren't preached in most churches.  I know.  I've been to a lot.   A lot.

Your still comparing churchianity with Christianity, Until you stop doing this you will never see the truth and only point fingers at the specks in other people's eyes. Do You get it yet? You are looking with fleshly eyes and Ears, not Spiritual eyes and ears.

 

7 minutes ago, choir loft said:

The LAW and its logical next step REPENTANCE is almost never preached in evangelical churches.

I agree, and this is the problem with churchianity.

 

9 minutes ago, choir loft said:

Jews don't understand grace because they refuse to acknowledge Yeshuah ha-mashiach (Jesus the messiah) as God.  Denying Yeshuah as god also denies His fulfillment of the LAW, therefore they break the LAW at its most important point - their hope of salvation.

I agree.

 

10 minutes ago, choir loft said:

Gentiles don't understand the LAW because they are in love with their sin.  I've already stated all the games evangelicals play to deny and subvert the LAW.  They love their darkness and refuse to understand the very bedrock of God's redemptive work.

I Disagree. The Law is being written on their hearts, and this is what the Law of the Spirit of Life is all about, as well as the fulness of the gentiles. You are failing to grasp the Whole gist of what I am saying because you are looking at this with carnal eyes and ears.

 

13 minutes ago, choir loft said:

The solution is that God will have to come down to earth and straighten the mess out personally.  This involves severe judgment and that will not be pleasant by any stretch of the imagination.  Neither will anyone escape it - (another denial of God's handiwork evangelicals love to embrace).

Watch and learn, pilgrim.   Hell is coming and the only people who will escape that will be the dead.

Unlike you who has no Hope, some of us are watching and waiting for our blessed hope... Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; (Titus 2:13) You see, Just like creation itself is groaning, so are we. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? (romans 8:23-24)

20 minutes ago, choir loft said:

Your last accusation about my not having faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross is insulting and demeaning.  Based on your own aberrant understanding you cannot judge another.  Since you have taken it upon yourself to judge me, I am therefore able to judge you by your own words.   So I have done.  The funny part is that you have no idea what I'm talking about or even what you are talking about.  I think that's hysterical.

For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? ( 1 Cor 5;12)

Conclusion: I have shown you here now that you have no Faith, you have no Hope, and your comments attest to your lack of Charity. Where is Jesus in You? For you have no fruit of the Spirit. All You are capable of spouting off are Hatred, hopelessness and carnal legalism.

[dhchristian]

4 minutes ago, Alive said:

I think the so called rapture is when the Lord shows up to begin the 1000 years.

I am not sure what that is called, though.

That is the Post trib rapture. My Personal opinion is that this view makes no sense, although I understand how they come to that conclusion. I Have a very different way of reading revelation. I see the 7th seal,trumpet and vial all being the same, the day of the Lord. I see the rapture at the 6th seal, and trumpet but not the sixth vial. I see revelation as a series of 7 scrolls, or visions, all terminating at the day of the LORD, with the eighth scroll being The Millennium reign of Christ. 

1 The vision of the church ages,

2 the vision of the seals

3 the vision of the trumpets,

4 The vision of the characters,

5 the vision of the vials,

6 the vision of the battles, 

7 The vision of the Bride and the groom

8 the vision of the Millennium... 7&8 are continual and sequential. 

The Little scroll in Rev. 10 is the pronouncement of Judgment that begins the Wrath of God, as well as the rapture. (Rev 10:7, Mystery of God)

Not many agree with me, but this makes perfect sense to me anyway. Reason why I believe in a pre-wrath rapture? Because none of the righteous have ever been allowed to witness the wrath of God in the Word of God Israel was locked in their homes behind the blood, Noah in the ark, Lot's family was told not to look back, and For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, (1 thess. 5;9)

great Tribulation and plagues we will face, Wrath we will not witness.

God Bless. 

[Heleadethme]

On 9/24/2019 at 9:25 AM, choir loft said:

The Bible does NOT describe a marital relationship between Christ and a religious corporation/franchise.  

In terms of a religious corporate entity, which was established by edict of Constantine, there is no such thing as a church as recognized by God.

I don't believe in a 'church' as a spiritual entity at all.  Here's why...

The problem with the phrase "bride of Christ" is that the role and identity of believers has been corrupted by the doctrines of man - specifically Rome and Protestantism.   As of this writing there are so many variations as to the definition of "bride of Christ" that it would be confusing to even publish the full list.  Basically the church has come to be known as a corporate business venture and the Bible most certainly DOES NOT describe any divine union with a corporation.

What I mean by this is that 'official' primary doctrine of Catholics, Protestants and the Orthodox church is linked to physical membership with a corporation or business.  The same is true for Judaism, because being a Jew means being born as one from a Jewish woman (having a Jewish father & gentile mother disqualifies).  For our purposes today, we only need to focus on the most widely used definition: bride=member.   

Enter the European Reformation about 500 or so years ago.....

The whole sad affair was a control issue, justified as men always do, by liberal and multiple references to scripture to justify their murder and hatred of one another.  In the end it was about who seized power from who.  Nobody really cared about definitions of bride-hood with Christ.  It was and remains about church membership - and who runs that particular division of it.

The Bible twist

Without going into a lot of detail about development of doctrines and dogmas, the present protestant belief is a perverted view of that held by the Vatican - the church universal.  The old term "church universal" shouldn't be confused with the Universalist Church, which is a cult that sprang out of the ground in the 19th century.  The "church universal" is interpreted by protestants to mean a spiritual entity not aligned with either the Vatican or Judaism (especially Jews).  Notice we haven't yet approached a relationship with Jesus.  It's still about church membership or rather that which protestants do NOT recognize in fellowship.  So what IS the bride of Christ?

I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him. - 2 Corinthians 11:2b

Proponents of "church universal" often quote the above verse to justify their dogma.  BUT go back and read the entire passage verses 1-15 and you'll see that the entire section is an apologetic by Paul who is opposing false apostles and their teaching.  Again it seems to go back to physical membership in a group as linked by doctrine.  MY POINT here is that more often than not the phrase "bride of Christ" is confused with a membership card in one's wallet, NOT with a relationship with Christ.   But that is only a part of the confusion.

The Bible does suggest that believers are prepared for some sort of intense intimate union with Christ.  Theres a word that describes this process, but I'm not going to write it here because the word itself is a source of much contention.  Suffice it to say that God does perform some sort of prep work upon believers prior to some sort of very intimate union with Christ.   There are whispers in the Bible that this intimacy is even greater than physical marriage or sex.  At no time does the Bible EVER require a civil license be issued or a religious membership to be established.

The Bible does suggest that believers, both Jew and gentile, are integrated into some relationship that it likens to a grape vine.  Either the believer is spliced into this vine or the believer is part of it originally.  It should be noted that caring for grape vines is labor intensive work.  There's a lot of trimming and tying and splicing involved and at the end of every season the vine is chopped literally to the ground.   If this work isn't done, the flavor and consistency of the fruit becomes worthless.  

The Bible only refers to a "bride of christ" once in Corinthians and again in Revelation.  It is NOT a consistent reference, but it DOES get linked to references to grape vines and the flavor of wine that comes from it.  Protestants don't understand the analogy to grape vines because their minds are still captured by American prohibitionist law (Volstead Act of 1919), which is why they insist upon drinking grape juice at communion rather than alcoholic wine as the Romans do.  (It's about American politics, not scripture.) Therefore, with only a wedding ceremony to consider, protestant theology tends to become muddled and restricted to membership among a group of like-minded believers.   Thus Catholics are excluded first due to continuing Reformation hatred of the Vatican and second by prejudice of Jews as influenced by Replacement Theology (which is centuries older than Reformation issues).

If I were to answer your question accurately after all that I've written I'd say that I don't believe there is such thing as the church at all. (*)

One wonders if the neighborhoods of heaven will be divided into separate ghettos of believers who include those who belong to their clique and exclude those they disagree with.....

There is only the bride/grape vine of Christ.  There is no church.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft....

(*) Bear in mind that in the NT, believers as well as Jesus continued to congregate in synagogues.  Even gentile converts to the new religion met there.  Bible studies were conducted in private homes, but worship was held in synagogues.  ALL Biblical references to CHURCH are references to groups or assemblies of believers.

Only after the edict of Constantine did the church become a corporate entity.

The Bible does NOT assure any bond between Christ and a religious corporation.  

In fact, Revelation hints that the corporate church may be destroyed during the End Times.  The Mother of Harlots will be betrayed by those who she sought to enslave.

There is a church, called the ekklesia in the Greek.......BUT it is a spiritual Body and is the one new man, made up of the twain (Jew and Gentile), and it is not an institution, as you are saying.

The marriage of the Lamb....I believe that as Pentecost was the betrothal, with part of the bride price being paid as the earnest against the promised marriage/consummation... that the marriage will mean the fullness of the "balance owing" of the measure of the Spirit is given to the bride.....meaning Christ taking full possession of His Bride.

Edited September 27, 2019 by Heleadethme

[Alive]

29 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

That is the Post trib rapture. My Personal opinion is that this view makes no sense, although I understand how they come to that conclusion. I Have a very different way of reading revelation. I see the 7th seal,trumpet and vial all being the same, the day of the Lord. I see the rapture at the 6th seal, and trumpet but not the sixth vial. I see revelation as a series of 7 scrolls, or visions, all terminating at the day of the LORD, with the eighth scroll being The Millennium reign of Christ. 

1 The vision of the church ages,

2 the vision of the seals

3 the vision of the trumpets,

4 The vision of the characters,

5 the vision of the vials,

6 the vision of the battles, 

7 The vision of the Bride and the groom

8 the vision of the Millennium... 7&8 are continual and sequential. 

The Little scroll in Rev. 10 is the pronouncement of Judgment that begins the Wrath of God, as well as the rapture. (Rev 10:7, Mystery of God)

Not many agree with me, but this makes perfect sense to me anyway. Reason why I believe in a pre-wrath rapture? Because none of the righteous have ever been allowed to witness the wrath of God in the Word of God Israel was locked in their homes behind the blood, Noah in the ark, Lot's family was told not to look back, and For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, (1 thess. 5;9)

great Tribulation and plagues we will face, Wrath we will not witness.

God Bless. 

Well--I certainly believe that His wrath won't fall on His sons.

We will hear a loud shout and the trumpet and be changed and called up to meet Him and then come on down with Him and witness the sword in His mouth dish out some wrath.