Why Did Jesus Die For Us

[jc49]

Also, any theology that supports the ability of believers to live completely without sin must take into account 1 John 1:8-10

If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us.  If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all nrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

The tense of the verb "confess" in verse 9 is in the present indicative active which describes ongoing action in the eyes of the author. Why would there be a need to continue to confess sin, if we no longer sin.

Any theology of sin in the believer's life must take into account that the new nature still resides with the old sin nature. That is what Paul described in Romans

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I AGREE WITH YA!

[EricH]

So you hold all of the above are prerequisites of salvation. On must have faith, pray, be baptized to be saved? In addition I would ask you what it is about these works that save. The bible teaches that man is incapable on his own of pleasing God, that even men's righteousness is like filthy rags before God.

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Hi Eric

[Tishri 1]

Suzanne, it isn't hard to receive.

Faith saves. PERIOD. But, a faith that saves is a faith that works.

If someone has no works, then you can question whether their faith is saving faith. But, works will never save. They only prove the faith of a saved believer.

Gal 2:16  Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

How clearer can that be? Works do not justify. Faith of Christ justifies. The works only follow the saved believer thereby giving evidence to the presense of saving faith.

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How true, the law does not justify your faith, as much as faith in Yeshua does not justify your sins.

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you two are Hip thinkers right on!

[Tishri 1]

I know this is obvious but I just wanted to jump in with stuff floating around in my head

really obvious: All are saved by faith, living in this world as New Creations in Christ ...

If I'm an extremely disabled believer...I won't be showing my faith too much my actions...grace

If I'm depressed- works in my life would be nill.... there's grace

Sick-grace

Pregnant, mom (or dad) of small children... works more around the home in teaching and instructing the wee ones...lots of grace

Parents of older Children--lots of works in the Home....less grace ( more responsibility)

Children....more works it appears than Adults (remember when we couldn't wait to grow up so we could DO WHATEVER WE WANT!)...less grace from parents ...lots of grace from God.

Pastors , Teachers, Adults "in Power"- lots of works like any shepherd tending the flock...responsibility -thru the roof !!!

Leaders of Countries, Kings and Priests------lots and lotsand lots of works !!!!

I see works as things we do ...but it can't be straight across the board for everyone, that's why some and not others seem to work this "out with Fear and Trembling", and others seem to recieve "more grace"...but we are all saved and doing something to express that salvation ...WE CAN'T HELP IT!

Ok the head is empty again

[tsth]

Ok the head is empty again

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Thanks Tishri, now mines full!

Ok, so how much do we believe? How much power does Christ's death and resurrection prove and accomplish? Do we believe, or not? If our sin binds us up, and we call upon a resurrected Savior to deliver us, is His Power that overcame death itself, sufficient enough to do it? And if we don't believe that It is, then is He obligated to set us free from the bondage, any bondage?

This is where the working power of His Grace comes in. If we truly believe that He has authority over death itself, then shouldn't we equally believe that He can deliver us from ANY sin? How about you, are you walking in THAT belief?

Mark 9:1 And He said to them, "Assuredly, I say to you that there are some standing here who will not taste death till they see the kingdom of God present with power."

Romans 5:17 For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)

Ro 5:21

so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Ro 6:4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Is this how we are walking??? Or are we still bound up?

Ro 6:16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

Romans 8:13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Let's start living, in the newness of life!!!

In His Love,

Suzanne

[Tishri 1]

Ok the head is empty again

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Thanks Tishri, now mines full!

Ok, so how much do we believe? How much power does Christ's death and resurrection prove and accomplish? Do we believe, or not? If our sin binds us up, and we call upon a resurrected Savior to deliver us, is His Power that overcame death itself, sufficient enough to do it? And if we don't believe that It is, then is He obligated to set us free from the bondage, any bondage?

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I'm not sure where you are comming from but I will give it a try : He is not obligated to me at all!...He is the King...any thing I get from my King is by His grace towards me...

but in my Covenant with Him He has pledged Certain Things (Blessings) to me...some are unconditional...some are very conditional. Salvation and a Future place in His Kingdom:Unconditional...all the rest that has been mentioned so far(unless I missed something) would in my opinion fall under conditional.

YET His love is so far reaching that in my personal relationship with Him I have to say that I've failed many times and He saw me through it every time by His power, even when I was without faith and hope at all. (must have been a mustard seed in this heart somewhere and He saw it) So inspite of the fact that I know He doesn't owe me a thing whether I'm good or bad...He has gotten down on my level more than once to lift me up and bless me BECAUSE He is who He is...He can't help it!

[EricH]

EricH

When the Bible says men are totally depraved and that nothing they can do can please God, I believe that means everything. The reason is that our sin nature permeates our entire being so every thing we do will be tainted by sin.

It would seem them that even if men did the works outlined by God as works leading to salvation (faith, repentance, receiving) that if they were done in man's own power they would be tainted by sin, and thus imperfect.

If a man by faith chooses of his own free will to do a work

[Guest ChristianInsights]

I see that the Grace / Works issue is the perennial controversy, and it is not hard to see why.

If we read 'grace' scriptures in isolation from the 'law' scriptures we will have what I'm seeing here -- polarized views, and no reconciliation. Our duty is to find the one solution that satisifies both positions, as both are valid.

Notably, Rom.2:13 says that the "doers of the law will be justified". Instead of using Gal.3:11 to contradict this statement, let us try to reconcile the two. That is the kind of inclusive approach we should take.

Ephesians 2:8-9 was offered in this discussion. Now if we take this statement, as is, without balancing it with other statements that uphold the commandments we have a contradictory position which always leaves us dodging the scriptures that clearly support commandment observance and the law (Rom.3:31, Matt.5:17, Rev. 12:17). Law advocates, on the other hand, dodge Eph.2:8-9, Eph.2:15, Gal.3:11, Gal.5:18, Rom 4-5 and others. This battle over Scripture, particularly Paul's writings, is actually not necessary though understandable. Frankly, much of the problem is semantic and contextual, but it not enough to make this claim one has to demonstrate it, then show how one's suggestion is consistent with the rest of Scripture, all of it.

A writing that might offer some relief is found at www.BeyondtheImpasse.com.

It is a book explaining the methodology and approach to reconciling, objectively, Paul's whole position on faith, law, grace, justification, and Scripture for new covenant Christians.

Check the back cover text at www.BeyondtheImpasse.com. You may pre-order with the author as the book will be available next month.

ChristianInsights

Edited June 24, 2005 by ChristianInsights

[Fisher of Men]

Anyone quoting Eph. 2:8,9 is obviously in error as the thought Paul is making is not completed unless verse 10 is included.

Also the context of Eph. 2:1-3,5 which gives "quickened" as the definition of "saved by grace".

With that definition in context and understanding the effect of grace in our lives to turn us from sin, "saved by grace", does not exclude works but understands that because believers do good works, the phrases "not of yourselves" and "lest any man should boast" simply gives God the glory for the works the saved do.

Not of works lest any man should boast for we are his workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works.

Read Eph. 2:10

[Guest ChristianInsights]

I think the issue is in understanding the 3-step phase of salvation, which is not, frankly, delineated in scripture but is conceptually present. Here is what I mean.

Step 1: we are justified by faith without works of any kinds (grace)

Step 2: we are sanctified by our works of obedience to the law (Rom.2:13)

Step 3: we obtain irrevocable salvation by way of a resurrection.

What this means is that we are saved (initially) by grace without works. This is why no one can boast of earning justification (specifically, forgiveness), as forgiveness is only available by faith in Christ, not obedienced of any kind.

Obedience, however, is mandatory and necessary for our justification / forgiveness to be maintained -- yes, there is a maintenance function. This is the counter-point of Romans 2:13 - "the doers of the law will be justified". So we see how obedience to the law has an influence on justification. Also notice James 2:9 & Romans 2:12 where were are convicted and judged by the law.

Both grace and law are necessary element of "ultimate" salvation (which is different from the grace we initially receive at conversion) -- although the law plays no part in forgivenss.

Understanding the delineation helps us to reconcile Paul's and James' apparently conflicting positions on justification and works.

www.BeyondtheImpasse.com

www.ChristianInsights.com