Why Did Jesus Die For Us

[tsth]

Genesis 4:1 Now Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain, and said, "I have acquired a man from the Lord." 2 Then she bore again, this time his brother Abel. Now Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.

3 And in the process of time it came to pass that Cain brought an offering of the fruit of the ground to the Lord. 4 Abel also brought of the firstborn of his flock and of their fat. And the Lord respected Abel and his offering, 5 but He did not respect Cain and his offering. And Cain was very angry, and his countenance fell.

6 So the Lord said to Cain, "Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? 7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it."

8 Now Cain talked with Abel his brother; and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother and killed him.

Was this "salvation by works"? What is really being conveyed in the above? Did it matter to the Lord? Why?

In His Love,

Suzanne

[tsth]

Does it matter?

Matthew 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

He did not scold them for having no "faith". He rebuked them for their works. They "worked" iniquity, rather than the will of His Father(obedience and belief).

Did their works matter to Him? Of course they did, so much so, they were the very things that kept them from the Kingdom...........their works of iniquity.

In His Truth,

Suzanne

[Kabowd]

Does it matter?

Matthew 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

He did not scold them for having no "faith".  He rebuked them for their works.  They "worked" iniquity, rather than the will of His Father(obedience and belief).

Did their works matter to Him?  Of course they did, so much so, they were the very things that kept them from the Kingdom...........their works of iniquity.

In His Truth,

Suzanne

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually, this is incorrect. Jesus did not reject them because of their works..He rejected them because He never knew them. The crux of what He was saying is "You did all of these "good" things in My name, but have no relationship with Me at all". Their works didn't keep them from the Kingdom, their works were "good". It was their lack of relationship with Christ which kept them from the kingdom.

Here's how I explained these verses in anohter topic:

When the Bible uses the word "knew" or "know" it is not in the sense of awareness. It is used to describe intimate knowledge..in fact, often it is used to specify sexual intimacy between a husband and wife. (ex: Adam knew Eve). If we look at our relationship with Christ, obviously He is "aware" of us all, but clearly He does not have INTIMATE RELATIONSHIP (in the spiritual sense) with all of us. Thus, this makes the verse in Matthew 7:23 even more clear. Also, the very same word for "know" is the same Greek word (ginosko) seen earlier in John 10:27. Used in conjunction with the word "never" (also used in John 10:28), the verse looks like this:

"Then I will tell them plainly, "I never ("oudepote", i.e. NEVER AT ANY TIME), knew (experienced intimate relationship with) you....."

If it had been up to their works, these people should've entered the kingdom. Afterall, they did good works in His very name. However, the point Christ was making is this: even those who do good works, even when those works are done in His name...those things do not save you. You must have an intimate relationship with Christ to be saved. He has to "know" you.

It would be like me trying to show up to a fancy Hollywood party thrown by Brad Pitt...where the guest list was exclusive and by invitation only. I might show up and insist that I've seen all of Brad Pitt's movies, started a fan club in his honor and read every magazine article about him....but that wouldn't get me into the party. I'd have to have relationship with him and be invited.

[tsth]

Does it matter?

Matthew 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

He did not scold them for having no "faith".

[tsth]

"Then I will tell them plainly, "I never ("oudepote", i.e. NEVER AT ANY TIME), knew (experienced intimate relationship with) you....."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

knew

Strongs #1097

Does it matter?

Matthew 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

know

Strongs

#1909 and #1097

There is a connection.

In His Love,

Suzanne

[Kabowd]

"Then I will tell them plainly, "I never ("oudepote", i.e. NEVER AT ANY TIME), knew (experienced intimate relationship with) you....."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

knew

Strongs #1097

Does it matter?

Matthew 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

know

Strongs

#1909 and #1097

There is a connection.

In His Love,

Suzanne

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You didn't address most of what I posted.

Notice He said "by their fruits ye shall know them". Not "I shall know them". Fruits are evidence to us and others....not to God. He already knows who are His. God doesn't need to see our fruits/works/deeds in order to know if we belong to Him. He sees the heart, the fruit is the evidence to the world. (Matthew 5:16)

[EricH]

"Then I will tell them plainly, "I never ("oudepote", i.e. NEVER AT ANY TIME), knew (experienced intimate relationship with) you....."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

knew

Strongs #1097

Does it matter?

Matthew 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

know

Strongs

#1909 and #1097

There is a connection.

In His Love,

Suzanne

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You didn't address most of what I posted.

Notice He said "by their fruits ye shall know them". Not "I shall know them". Fruits are evidence to us and others....not to God. He already knows who are His. God doesn't need to see our fruits/works/deeds in order to know if we belong to Him. He sees the heart, the fruit is the evidence to the world. (Matthew 5:16)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That is exaclty right. The text says we will know them, not God will know them!

[apothanein kerdos]

Does it matter?

Matthew 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

He did not scold them for having no "faith".  He rebuked them for their works.  They "worked" iniquity, rather than the will of His Father(obedience and belief).

Did their works matter to Him?  Of course they did, so much so, they were the very things that kept them from the Kingdom...........their works of iniquity.

In His Truth,

Suzanne

Talk abou taking scripture out of context to meet a presupposition. For one, we know He is talking about those with no faith but produce works that look like they belong in the category of Christian. The context is that of false prophets or false Christians. In verses seventeen and eighteen He explains that a good branch, or a good vine (Him) produces good fruit (works). Thus the advocacy is that faith in the vine will produce works. When He talks of those who produce no fruit and being cast, they are being cast away because they have no faith in Christ. If they had faith in Christ then their works would have shown it. In fact, His condemnation states that they bared no fruit. Going off of verses seventeen and eighteen, we know this to mean that they had no faith to begin with. So works stem from faith. Faith is the initial act of beliving, of falling in love with Christ. Works are the natural consequence of that act.

As for the debate on the Greek, turning to strongs means nothing.

The thing is, there many different ways of speaking of "know" in the Greek. ginosko is to say that you have knowledge of something. This can be put with different tenses to mean different things or mixed with different words to mean different things (as will be shown in a bit). oudepete however, means "not at any time" if we are to translate the idea.

In Matthew 7:23 we see that the words oudepte and ginosko are combined to form the word epgozomenoi which means in the translation of an idea "i never had intimate knowledge of you". This is different in contrast to Matthew 7:20 where the word epiginosethe, which taken out of its tense is epiginosko. This is different from the way "know" is structured in verse 23 in that epiginosko means "to recognize". The difference is clear. Knowing in verse 23 is Jesus talking about never having an intamite relationship with them. This means that they never have faith (this is why they ask about the works they've done in His name, they, like yoruself, are relying upon their works and not their faith). Jesus retorts with never having a relatinship with them, never having known them. This contrasts with verse 20 in that Jesus is telling His disciples that by looking at the fruits of a person they will be able to recognize his faith. Faith leads to actions, thus if a person has bad works, they have bad faith.

[tsth]

Yes Tess, I did address your post..........I asked you if you were going to ignore Jesus's comment about their works.

Does it matter?

Matthew 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

He did not scold them for having no "faith".

[apothanein kerdos]

Yes Tess, I did address your post..........I asked you if you were going to ignore Jesus's comment about their works.

Does it matter?

Matthew 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

He did not scold them for having no "faith".  He rebuked them for their works.  They "worked" iniquity, rather than the will of His Father(obedience and belief).

Did their works matter to Him?  Of course they did, so much so, they were the very things that kept them from the Kingdom...........their works of iniquity.

In His Truth,

Suzanne

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually, this is incorrect. Jesus did not reject them because of their works..He rejected them because He never knew them. The crux of what He was saying is "You did all of these "good" things in My name, but have no relationship with Me at all". Their works didn't keep them from the Kingdom, their works were "good". It was their lack of relationship with Christ which kept them from the kingdom.

Here's how I explained these verses in anohter topic:

When the Bible uses the word "knew" or "know" it is not in the sense of awareness. It is used to describe intimate knowledge..in fact, often it is used to specify sexual intimacy between a husband and wife. (ex: Adam knew Eve). If we look at our relationship with Christ, obviously He is "aware" of us all, but clearly He does not have INTIMATE RELATIONSHIP (in the spiritual sense) with all of us. Thus, this makes the verse in Matthew 7:23 even more clear. Also, the very same word for "know" is the same Greek word (ginosko) seen earlier in John 10:27. Used in conjunction with the word "never" (also used in John 10:28), the verse looks like this:

"Then I will tell them plainly, "I never ("oudepote", i.e. NEVER AT ANY TIME), knew (experienced intimate relationship with) you....."

If it had been up to their works, these people should've entered the kingdom. Afterall, they did good works in His very name. However, the point Christ was making is this: even those who do good works, even when those works are done in His name...those things do not save you. You must have an intimate relationship with Christ to be saved. He has to "know" you.

It would be like me trying to show up to a fancy Hollywood party thrown by Brad Pitt...where the guest list was exclusive and by invitation only. I might show up and insist that I've seen all of Brad Pitt's movies, started a fan club in his honor and read every magazine article about him....but that wouldn't get me into the party. I'd have to have relationship with him and be invited.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So in essence are you going to ignore HIS comment about their works? I mean Jesus could have just left it at "I never knew you".

He didn't.

In His Love,

Suzanne

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In regard to my reply to "your post" about He never "knew" you. I was making the connection between their "fruit" and "works". That the terminology of "knowing" was a vital component in both passages, the one with Jesus AND the one regarding us. I was commenting more on the works issue, than the "knowing" factor, but the word is used in BOTH passages.

In His Love,

Suzanne

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You're taking it out of context. As my previous post explains, works are in refrence to what comes from faith. Fruit and works are synomoous with each other in this passage. Vine and faith are to mean the same thing as well. From a good vine (faith in Christ) coems good fruit (good works). I encourage you to read my previous post to get full analysis of this.