Why Did Jesus Die For Us

[EricH]

Do you believe it is pleasing in God

[Kabowd]

Yes Tess, I did address your post..........I asked you if you were going to ignore Jesus's comment about their works.

Does it matter?

Matthew 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

He did not scold them for having no "faith".  He rebuked them for their works.  They "worked" iniquity, rather than the will of His Father(obedience and belief).

Did their works matter to Him?  Of course they did, so much so, they were the very things that kept them from the Kingdom...........their works of iniquity.

In His Truth,

Suzanne

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually, this is incorrect. Jesus did not reject them because of their works..He rejected them because He never knew them. The crux of what He was saying is "You did all of these "good" things in My name, but have no relationship with Me at all". Their works didn't keep them from the Kingdom, their works were "good". It was their lack of relationship with Christ which kept them from the kingdom.

Here's how I explained these verses in anohter topic:

When the Bible uses the word "knew" or "know" it is not in the sense of awareness. It is used to describe intimate knowledge..in fact, often it is used to specify sexual intimacy between a husband and wife. (ex: Adam knew Eve). If we look at our relationship with Christ, obviously He is "aware" of us all, but clearly He does not have INTIMATE RELATIONSHIP (in the spiritual sense) with all of us. Thus, this makes the verse in Matthew 7:23 even more clear. Also, the very same word for "know" is the same Greek word (ginosko) seen earlier in John 10:27. Used in conjunction with the word "never" (also used in John 10:28), the verse looks like this:

"Then I will tell them plainly, "I never ("oudepote", i.e. NEVER AT ANY TIME), knew (experienced intimate relationship with) you....."

If it had been up to their works, these people should've entered the kingdom. Afterall, they did good works in His very name. However, the point Christ was making is this: even those who do good works, even when those works are done in His name...those things do not save you. You must have an intimate relationship with Christ to be saved. He has to "know" you.

It would be like me trying to show up to a fancy Hollywood party thrown by Brad Pitt...where the guest list was exclusive and by invitation only. I might show up and insist that I've seen all of Brad Pitt's movies, started a fan club in his honor and read every magazine article about him....but that wouldn't get me into the party. I'd have to have relationship with him and be invited.

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So in essence are you going to ignore HIS comment about their works? I mean Jesus could have just left it at "I never knew you".

He didn't.

In His Love,

Suzanne

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In regard to my reply to "your post" about He never "knew" you. I was making the connection between their "fruit" and "works". That the terminology of "knowing" was a vital component in both passages, the one with Jesus AND the one regarding us. I was commenting more on the works issue, than the "knowing" factor, but the word is used in BOTH passages.

In His Love,

Suzanne

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I already responded to both of your posts. The problem with your conclusion is that it implies that He needs to see our fruit in order to know if we are His. It ignores both the context and the audience He is addressing and misses the point of what He was conveying.

I've seen alot of confusion lately on this board regarding fruits/works. It's as if people think God needs those things of us. He doesn't. Our works/deeds and fruit are all evidence to the world of who we belong to, they benefit us and others...not God. They bring Him glory because they reflect a heart that is His.

[tsth]

Faith leads to actions, thus if a person has bad works, they have bad faith.

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I completely agree, and I'm sure FOM probably does too, so again we are left with those who have bad works, they have bad actions, and are workers of iniquity, and are cast into the fire, thereby making their works a (vital component).

No one is proclaiming works without the working effectual power of Jesus Christ in us, I don't believe? At least I'm not, but we also cannot jump up and down in anger, when the examination of our works is called for in terms of salvation. (See Gen. 4 in previous posting.) This anger is nothing new.

In His Love,

Suzanne

[tsth]

I thought I'd make it easier for you. Here it is.

Genesis 4:1 Now Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain, and said, "I have acquired a man from the Lord." 2 Then she bore again, this time his brother Abel. Now Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.

3 And in the process of time it came to pass that Cain brought an offering of the fruit of the ground to the Lord. 4 Abel also brought of the firstborn of his flock and of their fat. And the Lord respected Abel and his offering, 5 but He did not respect Cain and his offering. And Cain was very angry, and his countenance fell.

6 So the Lord said to Cain, "Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? 7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it."

8 Now Cain talked with Abel his brother; and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother and killed him.

Was this "salvation by works"?  What is really being conveyed in the above?  Did it matter to the Lord?  Why?

In His Love,

Suzanne

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[Kabowd]

You're using those under the Old Covenant to justify the claim there are "terms" for salvation? If we have obligations to fulfill in order to be saved then Christ died in vain. And again, you are ignoring something very vital...do you really think God needs to see our works in order to know if we're truly His? In the case of Noah, in the case of Abraham..even in the case of Cain and Abel as mentioned above...God knows who are His long before they perform any act of good or bad. If anyone is rejected, it is because of their heart.

[tsth]

Don't miss the place where Abel offered the best of "the flock".

I can't help but think of Paul's wanting to offer the best of the flock as well:

Col. 1:Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

What IS the best we can offer? Can we examine our works and not get angry like Cain?

In His Love,

Suzanne

[apothanein kerdos]

Faith leads to actions, thus if a person has bad works, they have bad faith.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I completely agree, and I'm sure FOM probably does too, so again we are left with those who have bad works, they have bad actions, and are workers of iniquity, and are cast into the fire, thereby making their works a (vital component).

No one is proclaiming works without the working effectual power of Jesus Christ in us, I don't believe? At least I'm not, but we also cannot jump up and down in anger, when the examination of our works is called for in terms of salvation. (See Gen. 4 in previous posting.) This anger is nothing new.

In His Love,

Suzanne

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First, you ignored my entire post and context tha more than responds to what you're saying. I expect you to reply to it.

Secondly, you're missing the fact that a person who does bad works has bad faith. In essence, works has ntohign to do with our salvation, it is the faith. I pointed that out, gave excdellent analysis, and you ignored it. Until you respond to that post, your points are moot

As for using the OLD COVENANTTHAT WE HAVE BEEN SET FREE FROM to justify your position of works, go for it. But you better start attending temple and not Church, because it's a Jewish belief, not a Christian one.

[tsth]

You're using those under the Old Covenant to justify the claim there are "terms" for salvation? If we have obligationst o fulfill in order to be saved then Christ died in vain. And again, you are ignoring something very vital...do you really think God needs to see our works in order to know if we're truly His? In the case of Noah, in the case of Abraham..even in the case of Cain and Abel as mentioned above...God knows who are His long before they perform any act of good or bad. If anyone is rejected, it is because of their heart.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, Christ did not die in vain, He purchased something for us, that many are overlooking. AGAIN, go back to the VERY FIRST post of this thread. We have got to stop insulting the Spirit of Grace!

In His Love,

Suzanne

[Kabowd]

Don't miss the place where Abel offered the best of "the flock".

I can't help but think of Paul's wanting to offer the best of the flock as well:

Col. 1:Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

What IS the best we can offer?  Can we examine our works and not get angry like Cain?

In His Love,

Suzanne

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You're basically saying the same thing over and over. Again I ask...do you believe works/deeds/fruits are for God's benefit..so that He will recognize those who are His?

[EricH]

Don't miss the place where Abel offered the best of "the flock".

I can't help but think of Paul's wanting to offer the best of the flock as well:

Col. 1:Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

What IS the best we can offer?