What Noah Could Have Said But Didn't

[Kansasdad]

But from the father's perspective (which is the important one, they never quit being His sons. The issue was that both of the sons had a jaded view of sonship. One came to understanding, one did not. But even with the one who did not, the father still aintained that he was still a son, and that all that the father had was his.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Absolutely! The father never takes it away, but as both children demonstrate, the father will let us reject it, he does not force it on either son. The eldest had the same grace available, but he chose to reject it.

God Bless,

Kansas Dad

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Yet he remained a son.

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Actually we don't know what happens after the Father reaches out to the eldest, and explains what his grace is. the story ends there. So my statement of the eldest rejecting his grace is in error, He definitely questioned it, and then God reached out to him( as I believe the Holy spirit often does) and explained it in a way that the eldest could understand. I would conclude that the story ends with the eldest accepting the Grace that is freely offered. But that is just how I want the story to end.

[apothanein kerdos]

The son {eldest} is representative of the Pharisees. Look at the audience Jesus is teaching to and why He is teaching to them.

[Kansasdad]

The son {eldest} is representative of the Pharisees. Look at the audience Jesus is teaching to and why He is teaching to them.

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Do none of the Pharisees accept Gods Grace? I probably do have pink colored glasses on.

God Bless,

Kansas Dad

[apothanein kerdos]

The son {eldest} is representative of the Pharisees. Look at the audience Jesus is teaching to and why He is teaching to them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Do none of the Pharisees accept Gods Grace? I probably do have pink colored glasses on.

God Bless,

Kansas Dad

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

They acceptd it so much that they got themselves in a hurry to kill Christ so they could have grace... You're foregeting who put Him on trial. There were some pharisees that accepted Christ later...but the vast majority did not.

[Kansasdad]

The son {eldest} is representative of the Pharisees. Look at the audience Jesus is teaching to and why He is teaching to them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Do none of the Pharisees accept Gods Grace? I probably do have pink colored glasses on.

God Bless,

Kansas Dad

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

They accepted it so much that they got themselves in a hurry to kill Christ so they could have grace... You're forgetting who put Him on trial. There were some pharisees that accepted Christ later...but the vast majority did not.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I told you I had rose colored glasses on, but sadly you are correct, so maybe we could write two endings, one where he storms off in a huff and becomes a murdering, lying thief, and one where he storms off but then comes back, kind of like the first kid.

Kansas Dad

[apothanein kerdos]

The son {eldest} is representative of the Pharisees. Look at the audience Jesus is teaching to and why He is teaching to them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Do none of the Pharisees accept Gods Grace? I probably do have pink colored glasses on.

God Bless,

Kansas Dad

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

They accepted it so much that they got themselves in a hurry to kill Christ so they could have grace... You're forgetting who put Him on trial. There were some pharisees that accepted Christ later...but the vast majority did not.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I told you I had rose colored glasses on, but sadly you are correct, so maybe we could write two endings, one where he storms off in a huff and becomes a murdering, lying thief, and one where he storms off but then comes back, kind of like the first kid.

Kansas Dad

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The point of the story isn't to have an ending to it. Jesus left it open to the Pharisees, a challenge. Each one subsequently went off and wrote their own ending in their own way. In essence, you're trying to put too much into the context that isn't meant to be there.

[Kansasdad]

The son {eldest} is representative of the Pharisees. Look at the audience Jesus is teaching to and why He is teaching to them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Do none of the Pharisees accept Gods Grace? I probably do have pink colored glasses on.

God Bless,

Kansas Dad

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

They accepted it so much that they got themselves in a hurry to kill Christ so they could have grace... You're forgetting who put Him on trial. There were some pharisees that accepted Christ later...but the vast majority did not.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I told you I had rose colored glasses on, but sadly you are correct, so maybe we could write two endings, one where he storms off in a huff and becomes a murdering, lying thief, and one where he storms off but then comes back, kind of like the first kid.

Kansas Dad

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The point of the story isn't to have an ending to it. Jesus left it open to the Pharisees, a challenge. Each one subsequently went off and wrote their own ending in their own way. In essence, you're trying to put too much into the context that isn't meant to be there.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Good point, I agree it is a challange, but not just to the Pharisees, but to all of us

Kansas Dad

[Kansasdad]

It is also ineresting to note that this parable is placed alongside the parable of the lost sheep and the lost coin. In each it is God who initiates the all out search for that which is lost, not the lost object seeking to be found. In fact, when the younger son returned, he was not seeking restoration, he was seeking to save himself by becoming a servant. it was the father whi insisted that his status as a son had not changed. The son was not seeking to return as a son, only to be fed as a servant.

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Actually, it's no coincidence. These three parables show us the saving grace of the Triune God: The Son seeking the lost sheep, the Spirit seeking the lost coin, and the Father receiving the lost son.

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The spirit seeking the lost coin. Absolutely, I think many many people don't even know they are lost and therefore have no reference as to what they seek. I think the Holy spirit deffinately seeks them and guides them. Some listen, some don't. Likewise I think the Holy spirit seeks those that have walked away, trying to guide them back, like the youngest son. He already had intimate knowledge of the father he knew what he was missing, and the Holy spirit helped him come back, but not all will listen.

The Father receiving the lost son is the Fathers Grace, YES

It is because of the Sons sacrifice that we can receive the Fathers Grace, But we also see that the physical manifestation of God, the Son, walked the earth seeking the lost, and again some accepted and some rejected.

God Bless

Kansas Dad

[Fisher of Men]

Adam was literally made a sinner.

In all fariness to you, I will admit that I have NOT read your entire post. I couldn't get past this statement.

Adam was made a sinner????? What?

Fisher, you have so much wrong and I think this statement is truly at the cruz of your misunderstanding.

God made man in HIS own image...perfect and without flaw. [Genesis 1:26,27] It was Adam who entered sin through his own disobedience.

Honestly friend, you have confused what is credited to man and what is credited to God.

May the Lord Bless you richly,

Wayne

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Is it not true that Adam fell and his fall was passed on to all of mankind?

So before his fall he was not a sinner.

They receiving the knowledge of good and evil and their receiving the sentence of death (that's why we die) were simultaneous. We can hardly call Adam a sinner before the fall seeing he did not possess the knowledge of good and evil.

Upon receiving the knowledge of good and evil he became a partaker of the sinful nature we all have experienced. So you see, his transgression made him a sinner and that is why we were born with a nature to sin that would manifest itself.

In Christ we should be partakers of the divine nature that overrides the sinful nature inherited from Adam. The NT gift of the Holy Spirit fulfills the reverse effect from what Adams transgression placed on us. His sin made us sinners as it made him a sinner.

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Notice how grace and righteousness are connected. (See also Tit. 2:11-14)

As the "many were made sinners" part is literal, so must "many be made righteous" also be literal. To deny that "many be made righteous" is referring to literal genuine righteousness, means that the person claiming that, must then also agree that the "many were made sinners" part is also not literal. This is because Paul is very clearly drawing a parallel between the two 'makings' if you will.

The gift of righteousness in verse 17 is what Paul is talking about in verse 16 when he says: "And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification."

False Christianity defines this "gift of righteousness as an abstract, not real righteousness, when in reality Paul is speaking to those who had experienced the quickening power of the Holy Ghost that changed their behaviour from unrighteous to righteous. They had had that very experience of having been made righteous!

They didn't stumble or wrest Paul's writing here.

An example of Christians having experienced this being "made righteous" is found in Eph. 2:

1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

So the definition of grace here is "quickened" and the definition of "quickened" relates to the stopping of walking according to the spirit that works in the children of disobedience.

Children of disobedience disobey.

Children of obedience, are that, by the quickening or grace that enables them to do so.

The thing about Noah is that he obeyed. His obedience is what saved him. True, his obedience was the result of his faith and fear of God. But isn't that how our salvation also works?

According to James and Paul it is.

Jesus is the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him. And like Jesus, Noah was a preacher of righteousness, as will the true body of Christ also be.

So, Saved by Grace, am I correct to assume that you misunderstood me when I wrote: Adam was made a sinner? Wouldn't you agree that if you had not been so quick to judge, you would not have made that mistake?

I forgive you for speaking to me in the manner that you did. Let's just forget it.

And please, please, if you don't mean it, don't call me your friend.

Edited June 30, 2005 by Fisher of Men

[Guest shiloh357]

As the "many were made sinners" part is literal, so must "many be made righteous" also be literal. To deny that "many be made righteous" is referring to literal genuine righteousness, means that the person claiming that, must then also agree that the "many were made sinners" part is also not literal. This is because Paul is very clearly drawing a parallel between the two 'makings' if you will.

The gift of righteousness in verse 17 is what Paul is talking about in verse 16 when he says: "And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification."

False Christianity defines this "gift of righteousness as an abstract, not real righteousness, when in reality Paul is speaking to those who had experienced the quickening power of the Holy Ghost that changed their behaviour from unrighteous to righteous. They had had that very experience of having been made righteous!

No one has been "made righteous" in the sense that you are writing about, at this time. Righteousness is imputed to us currently, according to Romans 4. To be "made righteous" in the absolute sense, would mean that we have become inherently righteous have been infused with righteousness, and that is simply not the case.

Arthur Pink correctly notes that, "The 'righteousness of God' which is mentioned so frequently in the Roman epistle refers not to the essential righteousness of the Divine character, for that cannot possibly be imputed or legally transferred to any creature."

It is declared righteousness. God has imputed or credited righteousness to our account. We are justified (diakanos), or declared righteous. We are legally placed in rightstanding with God. Therefore we no longer stand before God under the law as sinners, but under grace as born again children of God.

Sin was imputed to Jesus according to Romans 5:21. Jesus did not literally become sin, but rather the sin of the world was imputed by the Father to Jesus' account and he willingly and gladly accepted that. Jesus became sin by imputation. Therefore, we are righteous by imputation. Righteousness as it is currently applied to the beliver, is a legal standing before God.

An example of Christians having experienced this being "made righteous" is found in Eph. 2:

1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

So the definition of grace here is "quickened" and the definition of "quickened" relates to the stopping of walking according to the spirit that works in the children of disobedience.

Children of disobedience disobey.

Children of obedience, are that, by the quickening or grace that enables them to do so.

1. "Quickened" means being made alive. That defines salvation, NOT grace. When God quickens our Spirit (makes us alive), that is an act of grace, but not the definition of grace itself. We have been made alive, and have eternal life abiding in us according to John 5:24 and 1 John 5:11 & 13. According to Eph. 1: 13 & 14, we have been sealed with the Holy Spirit who is the eartest of our inheritance. We have received just a down payment, a foretaste of the wonders that await us when the full reality of eternal life is finally manifest in us by the power of God.

2. The above is not an example of being made righteous. There is nothing in that passage that says anything about being made righteous, and is not even close to the point that Paul is trying to make. The object of the passage is the power of God. His point is that the power of God that was manifested in the resurrection of Jesus from the dead, is manifest us when He quickened us raised us up and has positionally "seated" us in the heavenly places in Christ.