What Noah Could Have Said But Didn't

[Kansasdad]

Kansasdad, that post shows a fundamentally flawed understanding of the relationship between faith, justification, and works.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thank you for point that out, I guess that I must be fundamentally flawed, and having such a deep seated Christian point that out will surly bring me closer to God.

I have decided that I am not going to debate any of you, I have stated what I believe and given you the scripture that support this belief. I will gladly read what you believe and the scripture that led you to your belief. If you ask me a direct question like EricH did, I will try to respond. If your sole purpose is to prove me wrong then good for you but I am not going to respond. SJ I have notice that your post have been much less confrontational, and I do very much appreciate that.

God Bless

Kansas Dad

[WayneB]

Shiloh summed up the relationship between works and faith very well I think when he wrote:

No one is trying to separate works from faith. We are separating works from salvation. No one has ever said that works are not necessary in the life of a believer.

Again, at what point was David declared righteous? Did God declare him righteous after he walked out in FAITH only with God's Armor and killed the giant Goliath? Was that the end of David's sin and the beginning of only good works? Of coarse NOT.

Was Noah already declared righteous through obedience for building the ark when he stumbled into drunkenness... AFTER the waters had receded?

Was Moses declared righteous before he struck the rock in unrighteous anger?

What of Solomon, the King who built God's temple yet married hundreds of wifes and allowed their paganism to infect his household? Was his works enough to offset his disobedience in building a mighty army contrary to God's will?

Those who tie their works to salvation have a set the bar high for themselves and others. There is no perfection apart from Jesus Christ. When Paul asked us, "Who will rescue me from this body of death?" he didn't say my works and my obedience! He simply stated, "Thanks be to God

[WayneB]

I have decided that I am not going to debate any of you, I have stated what I believe and given you the scripture that support this belief.  I will gladly read what you believe and the scripture that led you to your belief.

God Bless you Kansasdad.

There are many mysteries and questions still to be figured out BUT we must start with a solid foundation built on God's Grace. In other words, we must acknowledge that it is ALL His work...ALL of it and then go from there in searching for a deeper understanding.

I don't claim to have all the answers by no means but one thing that helped me understand the relationship between works and faith was the life of David, a man of FAITH. David loved the Lord with ALL of his heart and the Lord loved David...but did David's behavior always reflect that of a good witness for Christ? It took reading through the life of David and reading all of his Psalms to figure it out...at least for me.

May the Lord Bless you richly!

Wayne

[Kansasdad]

Shiloh summed up the relationship between works and faith very well I think when he wrote:

No one is trying to separate works from faith. We are separating works from salvation. No one has ever said that works are not necessary in the life of a believer.

Again, at what point was David declared righteous? Did God declare him righteous after he walked out in FAITH only with God's Armor and killed the giant Goliath? Was that the end of David's sin and the beginning of only good works? Of coarse NOT.

Was Noah already declared righteous through obedience for building the ark when he stumbled into drunkenness... AFTER the waters had receded?

Was Moses declared righteous before he struck the rock in unrighteous anger?

What of Solomon, the King who built God's temple yet married hundreds of wifes and allowed their paganism to infect his household? Was his works enough to offset his disobedience in building a mighty army contrary to God's will?

Those who tie their works to salvation have a set the bar high for themselves and others. There is no perfection apart from Jesus Christ. When Paul asked us, "Who will rescue me from this body of death?" he didn't say my works and my obedience! He simply stated, "Thanks be to God

[Kansasdad]

I have decided that I am not going to debate any of you, I have stated what I believe and given you the scripture that support this belief.

[Kabowd]

I would also highly encourage you to read the book of Hosea. One of the most amazing and beautiful stories that reflects the heart of God, His unrelenting passionate love for His own (even in their rebellion), and His redeeming grace.

[Guest shiloh357]

I absolutely agree that works do not save us. I would also submit that faith does not save us. It is by the Grace of God alone that we are saved. The Grace purchased by the blood of Jusus Christ. However we can only accept Gods Grace through faith. Therefore we need to have a complete understanding of what Faith is. Even the most faithful man does not deserve Gods Grace. It is a gift given anyway, but only to those with faith. Faith is our part in salvation, and faith is not just believing, but also, including, in conjunction with, doing, and repenting (changing of the heart)

Faith is assurance. It is not merely believing, but believing enough to act on it. Faith is the assurance of things hoped for. Faith acts as if that which is hoped for is already here. For the person of faith, heaven is as good as done.

What you are trying to say, it appears is that what you are trying to say in this post is that faith is not mental assent. Faith is not simply the intellectual acknowledgement of the truth. I know many people who believe that God exists, and give reverence even to Jesus and they have great respect for the Scriptures. But all they have is mental assent. That is not faith since they fail to act on what they know to be true. They refuse to surrender to the Lord.

No one has as of yet said that faith and works were separate, or that one could have faith without works. We have taken pains to make that clear, yet we still get accused of such nonsense. The debate is not whether works are connected to faith. The debate is whether works are required to assure your eternal life. The debate is about whether or not works make you worthy of eternal life. Fisher Of Men is saying that good works are essential to salvation, and that they are necessary for a person to be saved and to be "worthy" of eternal life.

He bases it on a false premise: He says that there is a difference between "OT works" and "NT works" and there isn't. He is leading some astray with his false teachings. The fact that God's grace gives us the daily strength to live out His Will and do his good pleasure does NOT mean that they are efficacious to salvation, nor is the grace of God (contrary to Fisher's false teachings) a guarantee against ever committing another sin. He is just flat wrong.

[Kansasdad]

[Faith is assurance.  It is not merely believing, but believing enough to act on it.  Faith is the assurance of things hoped for.  Faith acts as if that which is hoped for is already here.  For the person of faith, heaven is as good as done.

What you are trying to say, it appears is that what you are trying to say in this post is that faith is not mental assent.  Faith is not simply the intellectual acknowledgement of the truth.  I know many people who believe that God exists, and give reverence even to Jesus and they have great respect for the Scriptures. But all they have is mental assent.  That is not faith since they fail to act on what they know to be true. They refuse to surrender to the Lord.

No one has as of yet said that faith and works were separate, or that one could have faith without works.  We have taken pains to make that clear, yet we still get accused of such nonsense.  The debate is not whether works are connected to faith.  The debate is whether works are required to assure your eternal life.  The debate is about whether or not works make you worthy of eternal life.  Fisher Of Men is saying that good works are essential to salvation, and that they are necessary for a person to be saved and to be "worthy" of eternal life.

This is not what I see FOM saying.  What I hear him saying is that works are essential to salvation in so far as they are connected to faith.  That works are essential to Faith.  I did not read from him that only by works is essential to salvation.  So the debate on whether works are required for salvation, the answer is yes.  Because Faith requires works.  It is an essential part of faith.  Now that is not the same as saying that only works is required.  Faith is much more than works, but works is deffinately part of faith.  I know you didn't like my cake analysis but if you take an ingredient out (works) it is no longer faith.  Likewise if you take an ingredient out (belief) it is no longer faith.  Either path leads to destruction.  But that is my take on what FOM is saying.  FOM if this is wrong please clarify. 

He bases it on a false premise:  He says that there is a difference between "OT works" and "NT works" and there isn't.  He is leading some astray with his false teachings.  The fact that God's grace gives us the daily strength to live out His Will and do his good pleasure does NOT mean that they are efficacious to salvation, nor is the grace of God (contrary to Fisher's false teachings) a guarantee against ever committing another sin.  He is just flat wrong.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I didn't catch where he said this, but this is a very long thread.

God Bless;

Kansas Dad

ps. Your summary of what I am trying to say(mental assent) is very good

Thank you

[Ovedya]

Here's an interesting E-Manna I received today. Take note of the bolded portions.:

The Forgiveness of Sins and Salvation's Power

Bible Verses

Matt 9:6 But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins. Then He said to the paralytic, Rise, take up your bed and go to your house. (7) And he rose and went away to his house.

Words of Ministry

The Lord's salvation not only forgives our sins, but also causes us to rise and walk. It is not to rise and walk first and then be forgiven of our sins; that would be by works. Rather, it is to be forgiven of our sins first and then to rise and walk; this is by grace. To forgive sins is a matter of authority on earth. Only this kingly Savior, who had been authorized by God and who would die to redeem sinners, had such authority. This authority was for the establishment of the kingdom of the heavens.

The Lord enabled the paralytic not only to walk, but also to pick up his bed and walk. Formerly the bed bore him; now he bears it. This is the power of the Lord's salvation. This paralytic was brought to the Lord by others, but he went home by himself. This indicates that it is not that the sinner can go to the Lord, but that the sinner can go from the Lord by the Lord's salvation. The paralytic's rising and going proved that he was healed, and his being healed proved that his sins were forgiven. This was a strong proof that the Lord Jesus had the authority to forgive people's sins.

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I'm not sure where this discussion has been, so please forgive me if I repeat anything that's already been stated.

I believe that the Bible firmly establishes salvation by grace of God through faith in the Son. Grace, in and of itself is the unmerited favor of God extended to mankind, based upon the single work of Christ upon the cross. It is by the cross, with the cross, and through the cross alone that we have found favor with God, and are justified. It is by faith that the believers have obtained access to God's throne, from which God's grace flows (signified by the river of water of life in Revelation). It is no small significance, therefore, that God's throne is referred to as "the throne of grace" in Hebrews 4:16.

Everything - every work for the redemption of mankind - has been firmly established in the Lord's very blood. There is therefore nothing, outside of believing into Christ, that we can do to merit God's favor. God's favor is in the shed blood of Christ!

There is simply nothing that we can do to obtain salvation outside of living in Christ, living by Christ, and living out Christ (Rom. 14:8; 1 Thess. 5:10; Luke 20:38; Gal. 2:20; Phil. 1:21)

Again....I don't know how many times this can be stated, and in how many ways, works is the natural manifestation of faith in Christ. There is no verse that states that good works is a factor of our salvation.

[Kabowd]

So the debate on whether works are required for salvation, the answer is yes.  Because Faith requires works.

You're still wrong. You still have it backwards. Faith is required to produce works, but works do not produce faith.

Works are NOT required for salvation...they are the evidence of salvation. Why is this so hard to comprehend??

Abraham did no work in the covenant God made with Him. Noah did not build the ark (do a work) until after He was declared righteous by God (bedause of his faith). God did not wait until Noah had completed the ark to find favor with him. He found favor with Noah because of his faith, that is why God entrusted Noah to build the ark.

Have you read Hosea yet?