What Noah Could Have Said But Didn't

[Ovedya]

The Bible says that Noah found favor with God (Gen. 6:8-9). Why do you think that is? Because of his works? No! Because of his faith (Heb. 11:7)

Noah is called a "herald of righteousness" in 2 Pet. 2:5, and his family is also called righteous. Is that righteousness according to faith or the working out of the law? It had to be by faith! The law was not to be given for at least another 1,000 years!

Faith always precedes works in the Bible.

[Kansasdad]

So the debate on whether works are required for salvation, the answer is yes.

[Kansasdad]

Faith always precedes works in the Bible.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I would say that the bible always give examples of how good works are a part of real faith, for Faith without it is dead. It isn't faith.

Shiloh357 stated it like this

"What you are trying to say, it appears is that what you are trying to say in this post is that faith is not mental assent. Faith is not simply the intellectual acknowledgement of the truth. I know many people who believe that God exists, and give reverence even to Jesus and they have great respect for the Scriptures. But all they have is mental assent. That is not faith since they fail to act on what they know to be true. They refuse to surrender to the Lord."

One doesn't come before the other they are a package deal. Part of "good works" also include what we think upon. Do we hold on to our hate, anger, lust, or do we surrender to the Lord. Works can be as much mental as physical.

God Bless,

Kansas Dad

[Kabowd]

No Faith is not required to produce works.

Yes it is, unless you're considering every work a good work. Apart from God, apart from faith...we cannot produce anything "good" at all. It is absolutely unbiblical to teach otherwise. You honestly believe you can do any good thing apart from God?

You can do plenty of good works with out faith, and you will not receive the Grace of God.

Well working doesn't earn us the grace of God anyway. Grace is a gift (taught plainly in Ephesians 2:8,9 which you and your friends so easily disregard) Romans 14:23 teaches us that anything we do that is not produced out of faith is sin. You cannot do anything good apart from God (see Romans 7:18 and John 15:5). And Isaiah 64:6 teaches us that our own righteousness is as filthy rags. So no, anything we do apart from faith cannot be considered a "good work", it must be considered sin.

I never said works produced Faith. Some one stated that it is a natural manifestation of Faith. That is exactly what I am saying. It is an intricate part of Faith, you can not have faith with out it.

Yes, you are essentially teaching that doing works earns us God's favor, earns us salvation, earns us His grace. You just stated it above, "You can do plenty of good works with out faith, and you will not receive the Grace of God". In other words, you believe that works done in faith will cause you to receive the grace of God. Again, this is backwards theology.

So my question is, if there is no evidence of salvation are you saved?

Whoever said that there is no evidence? You and your friends insist in asserting that we are advocating a lazy doctrine, or that we're saying works are not needed. This is an absolute lie. Of course if you are saved, there WILL BE FRUIT. THERE WILL BE EVIDENCE. But the fruit, works, deeds do not come before faith...the proceed out of it.

Why is it so hard for you to comprehend? You can not claim to have Faith and do nothing! You are living a lie.

You are calling me a liar? How arrogant and foolish of you. Where did any of us say that you can have faith and do nothing?!?! I dare you to find any post which stated such a claim. Are you trying to miss the point or do you really not comprehend this?

So are good works required for salvation? yes as far as they are related to Faith, and good works are a part of Faith. To have Faith you must have 3 things (belief, good works, a repentant heart)

Scripture? Where is faith defined as those three things? There are scriptures which teach us what faith looks like, and what faith produces, but nowhere does the bible teach that faith is made up of those three things.

If you do not have all three you do not have Faith.

Well, where there is no fruit, there is probably little (or no) faith. But scripture teaches us that faith can be increased and grown. I wouldn't be so quick to judge someone's salvation, especially on such a flimsy criteria as you have. Afterall, if we compare this criteria to the life of David, or Jonah, Abraham or even Israel...you would possibly conclude there was the absence of faith and hence no salvation.

So again are good works required? They are part of faith, and faith is required.

*bangs head on desk*

If works are required, Christ died in vain.

[Ovedya]

The danger stems from a genuine misunderstanding and application of the verse, KD.

"Death" does not equal the loss of salvation, it only indicates the dormancy of faith. Therefore, to use works as a measure of someone's faith, and to say that that person was not saved or did not have "genuine faith" to begin with is wrong.

A Christian can receive the gift of faith, which is the absolute assurance of salvation, and still initially lack in works. Just as an infant may be born and not have the strength to feed itself or walk for a period of time. I'm sure it's been referenced several times and in several ways, but the thief on the cross had his hands and feet nailed just as the Lord did. Yet he had faith in Christ and was assured Paradise because of it. Another analogy we may use is a man receiving the Lord just as his car crosses a railroad track in front of an oncoming train. Surely his faith in Christ is sufficient to inherit the kingdom of the heavens.

Now, of course, the question may very well come to: What is the true definition of works? What is a work? The Pharisees condemned the Lord Jesus for feeding His disciples on the Sabbath; they accused Him of "working" on the Sabbath. And, in fact, the legalitarians of the Lord's day would not allow a single amount of work to be done on the Sabbath, even to simply lighting a fire for warmth or light.

Perhaps then we should be like the Pharisees and judge according to each man what a work is and what it is not? There we're getting into a very "sticky" area, for we are presuming to have the divine authority of judging between men's salvation; this is not given to us in the Bible at all. In fact, it makes us no better than the legalitarians.

Therefore, I propose that any response of faith, whether that be preaching the gospel, telling a friend about the grace of the Lord, to clothing the naked, feeding the hungry, etc., is a "work." These things, from the largest to the smallest, if done out of faith in Christ, constitutes a genuine "work."

[Guest shiloh357]

Because Faith requires works.

No, works require faith. Everything you do is based upon what you believe. You drive your car because you have faith that that the brakes will work. If you did not have faith that your car was safe, you would not drive it. Works require assurance first, before we will act upon that assurance. You cannot apply your defintion of faith in any other practical context, and it will not work where the Bible is concerned, either.

[Kansasdad]

The danger stems from a genuine misunderstanding and application of the verse, KD.

"Death" does not equal the loss of salvation, it only indicates the dormancy of faith. 

I was not refering to "death" as in death of salvation.  But faith that is dead is not faith that is dormant either. It is Faith that does not exist.

Therefore, to use works as a measure of someone's faith, and to say that that person was not saved or did not have "genuine faith" to begin with is wrong.

A Christian can receive the gift of faith, which is the absolute assurance of salvation, and still initially lack in works.  Just as an infant may be born and not have the strength to feed itself or walk for a period of time.  I'm sure it's been referenced several times and in several ways, but the thief on the cross had his hands and feet nailed just as the Lord did.  Yet he had faith in Christ and was assured Paradise because of it.  Another analogy we may use is a man receiving the Lord just as his car crosses a railroad track in front of an oncoming train.  Surely his faith in Christ is sufficient to inherit the kingdom of the heavens.

Now, of course, the question may very well come to: What is the true definition of works?  What is a work? 

I agree, this is a good question, for one can do good things, ie: feed the poor, but not do them as a part of ones Faith.  Outside of Faith they are useless. 

The Pharisees condemned the Lord Jesus for feeding His disciples on the Sabbath; they accused Him of "working" on the Sabbath.  And, in fact, the legalitarians of the Lord's day would not allow a single amount of work to be done on the Sabbath, even to simply lighting a fire for warmth or light.

Perhaps then we should be like the Pharisees and judge according to each man what a work is and what it is not?  There we're getting into a very "sticky" area, for we are presuming to have the divine authority of judging between men's salvation; this is not given to us in the Bible at all.  In fact, it makes us no better than the legalitarians.

I have not nor ever will advocate that we should judge our fellow man by their works.  We have no way of knowing where the works are coming from, Faith or self indulgence.  But we can measure our own heart.  We can examin our own evidence and lay it before the lord.  This is the repentance part of Faith. 

Therefore, I propose that any response of faith, whether that be preaching the gospel, telling a friend about the grace of the Lord, to clothing the naked, feeding the hungry, etc., is a "work." These things, from the largest to the smallest, if done out of faith in Christ, constitutes a genuine "work."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree with this paragraph completely.

God Bless,

Kansas Dad

side note, when I posted the word "you" in previous post I was not refereing to any individuals, If that is how it was understood, I apologize. I was trying to convey a broader sense of people in general. My english teacher told me never to use the word you, for the reader could mis-understand the meaning. Sorry

[WayneB]

God Bless you Kansasdad.

I sense in you true sincerity and humility. Unlike some others, you present an argument for your understanding but do not not do so in a provocative and divisive way.

You seem to be responding very well to the deluge of posts opposing your understanding. I just pray that you have really taken the time to read them through and really grasp what Shiloh, Ovedya, Tess and myself are saying.

It all comes down to the question of by whose Hand are we saved?

May the Lord Bless you richly,

Wayne

[Ovedya]

I was not refering to "death" as in death of salvation.

[EricH]

Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Part of the confusion is the difference between Grace and Faith.  This passage is talking of Gods Grace.  Grace is given to those who have faith.  There is nothing we can do that makes us worthy of his Grace.  Even the most faithful is not worthy of his Grace, but God gives it to his faithful anyway.  The works in this passage are in refference to Gods Grace not in refference to the definition of Faith.

But any explanation has to honor the logical relationships laid out in Ephesians 2:8-10. Otherwise you have placed what the bible says in conflict with itself. The reason I am pusing this so hard is that the Ephesians passage is one of the best places that actually describes the cause and effect relationship between faith and works. If you feel you have a passage that contradicts what ephesians 2:8-10 says, then you must also be able to explain Ephesians 2:8-10 in this new light without damaging what it says about those logical relationships:

Namely that salvation (justification) is not of works and that works (sanctification) are made possible only after justification has occured. All works are a result of God's grace. No human could do any works pleasing to God, unless He enabled us to do them. Jesus said that apart from Him, we can do nothing. That is exactly the point of salvation. We are given a new nature, that now enables us to do things that please God. Not on our own power, but through the life changing work of thew Holy Spirit