apostasia

[Revelation Man]

4 hours ago, Mr. M said:

Overwhelmingly, the difference of opinion over the rapture is among believers, and has nothing to do with an evangelical message of salvation to the unsaved. I have never heard an evangelist base a salvation message on the question of the tribulation. Neither does any apostle in the New Testament. It is about judgment day, not rapture day. Those who reject the mark of the beast during the tribulation are said to be blessed.

 

The Apostles did not live in the end times. And they knew they would all be killed. They also knew the end was way later on, as evidenced by the Birth Pang demonstration. The point stands, if we do not teach our youth they must repent now or they will face troubles on earth such as never have been seen before, then many will more than likely not make it, they will be killed by God's Wrath or evil men. All times are different, there could be no End Times until Israel was reborn as a nation. Thus there was neve a need to preach the Wrath of God is at hand until now. Apophis the asteroid is heading our way as we speak.

5 hours ago, Mr. M said:

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

 

Well, yes, but how many do that? Who knows, but my guess is most pf the youth who have never known Christ will fall weak, older people who knew the Lord, fell away, then come back during the 70th week, will of course have more fortitude than the young in Christ. The point remains, if the Rapture is Pre Trib (it is) then all those youth who were told different will be in peril, when they could have just been in Heaven with the Church. That is a heavy burden someone will have to bear.

5 hours ago, Mr. M said:

A pre-trib rapture is not the first resurrection.

 

Of course it is, God has TWO..........The Righteous and the Wicked. Time is something God does not see as we men see. So, a Cricket Match can be played over multiple days, but God's Resurrection has to all happen on the same day. I don't think so brother. 

 

5 hours ago, Mr. M said:

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

The zeal with which you espouse this 70th week escapism comes across  as simple cowardice. What are you afraid of? Losing your head?

I am correct, the rest is not that relevant to me tbh. You do understand that Rev. 20:4 actually PROVES a Pre Trib Rapture right? Those MARTYRS are only raised AFTER Jesus 2nd coming, thus who are those seen in Rev. 7:9-17? That is the Pre Trib Raptured Church which came out of great tribulation (Church Age Tribulation). Also, in the 5th Seal they are told they MUST WAIT until all of their brothers have been killed in  like manner as they have. These are simple truths, but men allow old understandings to block out these simple truths. It is what it is.

Every day as a Christian is TRIBULATION, this world will always HATE YOU, Remember those words from Jesus brother? Being a Christian means we are not COWARDS from jump street. Thinking Jesus wants his Bride to go through a mugging is what makes no sense brother. Our job on earth is finished, thus we leave this earth. The Kingdom Age is about Jesus and Israel, not the Church.

TBH, I usually do not even discuss it, to me its a waste of time to keep debating the same thing. We will be Raptured pre trib. And that will happen very soon. 

[Revelation Man]

4 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

And there it is!

" all those that already "KNOW IT ALL" can never hear what God is trying to say unto us, it gets blocked out by the mind that has all of the answers"

Are you not the guy that has been telling everyone in this forum (and other forums I'm sure) that .... wait, I'll copy and paste it...

"I don't follow men, I know more about END TIMES then all other men I have known or read...."

You yourself proclaim to be a "know-it-all" when it comes to understanding eschatology. 

Yes, but I learned to hear God, you are repeating old men's understandings from long ago, think about it OVERALL, you have never heard ANYONE explain the 1335, 1290 and 1260 as I do. That is where God started showing me His deeper truths, I don't repeat men. There are only basically two understandings, the Pre and Post Trib, so I just chose the right one, there had to be many other men who think in the same manner on that. But, on my overall eschatology, you do not see me repeating other men's understandings at all. I see men I respect a lot who call the 144,000 Preachers instead of who they are, the Jews who Flee Judea, that comes from me hearing the Lord, not other men. That as the WHOLE POINT of the answered prayer, "Ron, they already know everything" Psstt, I quit buying into what I formerly knew or thought I knew , these things I say are not OLD THINGS I clung to back then, the purpose was to change me from a person who went with the crowd to a man who hears what He is saying. So what was I supposed to do, hear that and then not hear God's truths and just sit silent in the dark for eternity. The reason I now know what I know is unlike others, I stopped talking and stared listening, as did the Prophets, they had to get out in the desert and or wilderness in order to hear God.

Ever see anyone else say that the Dan. 9:27 TAKING AWAY of the Sacrifice is rally a False Prophet Jewish High Priest FORBIDING Jesus Worship in the Temple of God? No !! Of course not, I am not repeating men brother. God rebuked me, He reproved me, He challenged me to be still and LISTEN, and to ask Him to reveal His truths instead of repeating rehashed men's traditions. So, I bought in 100 percent, but what I hear from others is stuff I heard years ago. No one stops and asks why? I do, if something does not jibe 100 percent now I as God to show me, and He always does. Because I do not cling unto my old truths. And by the way, I even took a fresh and deeper look 8 or so years ago at the Rapture and it only got much, much clearer to me. I used to debate it, now I will not, it just beyond debate unto me.

I am not repeating other men's stuff. Now think, if God is only going to reveal His end time truths at the very end, how are those men from the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s going to be seen as in  the know? We need a fresh understanding because only now is God revealing His end time truths in full. Repeating stuff from 50-75 years ago or longer is going to leave us out of the loop for the most part.

God wants us to know it all, but those who already know it all by repeating stuff from long ago, block out God's ability to reveal His truths unto us. Listening has to be the first change, until one learns to listen first he will never see what God is doing now by being immersed into what men thought the end was going to look like 50 years or so ago.

5 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

We see through a glass darkly.

No-one........and I mean no-one...... has all the answers. 

Anyone who says that they do is puffed up with pride. But God has a big old pin that He will use to deflate that ego and bring that man down to reality.

That will be a painful day!

God in these end times will reveal His full truths to those who learn to listen. And those will thus have the answers, God ALWAYS FOREWARNS His people before troubles come. People just have to learn discern the truths from the guesses. 

 

[JoeCanada]

On 10/12/2019 at 7:01 AM, calledoutones said:

Also I want to point out that if we read 2 thess 2 in context we find that the thessalonians were going through tribulations as mentioned in 2 thess 1:4, so paul writes to the not to be soon shaken in mind, or troubled in spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us that the day of christ had come! 2 thess 2:2, they thought that they had missed the rapture because of tribulation, and paul comforts them by telling them not to worry about it because the departure will come "first". makes perfect sense to me. comment please! shalom

Let's read 2 Thes in context: (starting at 1 verse 3)

"3... We ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers and sisters, as is only fitting, because your faith is increasing abundantly, and the love of each and every one of you toward one another grows ever greater. 

4....therefore, we ourselves speak proudly of you among the churches of God for your perseverance and faith in the midst of all your persecutions and afflictions which you endure. 

............(The saints at Thessalonica were enduring through tribulation.... they were not removed or taken away. They lived through and endured!)

continuing.......

5.....This is a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you indeed are suffering.

............ ( and there it is. Tribulation is an indication of God's righteous judgment on the saints, the church....... WHY?....... so that you will be considered worthy of the Kingdom of God, for which you indeed are suffering)

............. (that is why we are told to endure in the letters to the seven churches in Revelation. Endure the trials and persecutions in tribulation so that we will be considered worthy of the Kingdom of God. Paul speaks highly of the brethren in the Church at Thessalon and lifts them up to God in prayer , giving thanks for their faith in the midst of all their trials and persecutions in tribulation.

continuing...........

6,7,8.... For after all it is only right for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give relief to you who are afflicted, along with us, when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels  in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God, and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 

...............( When?????? does God repay with affliction.... and give relief? It is WHEN the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven in flaming fire. When is He revealed from heaven in flaming fire? It is on the Day of the Lord.... after the tribulation.  He gives the saints relief, (rapture)....and deals out pain and suffering to the ones that do not know Him or obey Him. It's right there....read it again.... and again.)

continuing......

9.....These people will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,  when He comes to be glorified among His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—because our testimony to you was believed. 

........ (In case it wasn't clear, Paul tells us again.... The people who do not obey the Gospel will pay the penalty of eternal destruction.... when????..... when He comes to be glorified among His saints on that DAY..... WHAT DAY?????..... on the DAY OF THE LORD!)

continuing.........

 2:1......Now we ask you, brothers and sisters, regarding the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 

.............. (When is the Lord coming??????????? Paul just finished telling us. If you don't know, re-read the above. Paul tells us plain and simple when that Day is!)

2..... that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit, or a message, or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 

3...... No one is to deceive you in any way!

3a..... For it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction

................ (It will not come?.... What will not come?...... The Day of the Lord will not come, the Day when the Lord is revealed in flaming fire and deals with the saints and the ungodly, on the same day.... Paul just told us that in verses 6-7-8)

..................................................................

Why does pretrib try to force a belief that "apostasy" is the rapture???????

Paul tells us plainly that we are "given relief" on the same day that God deals with the ungodly. That day is the Day of the Lord. The Day of the Lord comes AFTER the tribulation, AFTER the man of sin is revealed, AFTER the apostasy.

It is unscriptural to believe that the "rapture" occurs before Lord "raptures" the saints on the Day of the Lord when He deals out HIs Wrath against all the ungodly.

His Wrath is "orge".....

Tribulation is "thlipsis".....

BIG difference. We are not appointed to wrath. But we are given to tribulation, for the purpose of "God's righteous judgment so that we will be considered worthy of the Kingdom of God!"

 

[Mr. M]

20 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

QUESTION, what does raised incorruptible mean in verse 52? It means they have NO SIN FLESH, did you recognize that is what Paul meant? Most people don't actually grasp that fact brother.

 What I must do is try to reconcile these scriptures to what you are teaching.

Ephesians 5:

28 So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself. 

29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church. 

30 For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones.

Luke 24:39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.

2 Corinthians 7:1 Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Galatians 5:24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 

1 Peter 4:

1 Therefore, since Christ suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same mind, for he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, 

2 that he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh for the lusts of men, but for the will of God. 

This is by no means exhaustive, but I would suggest considering a more appropriate way of expressing your idea as "no un-crucified flesh may abide in his presence". This is why Paul states:

1 Corinthians 3:

12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 

13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 

14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 

15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

In this life, we have the opportunity to "put on Christ", bear fruit of the Spirit, and be transformed from glory to glory. To reflect the image of Christ that already exists with our spirit body prepared for us in the heavenlies. Our spirit man is perfected in Christ, and we can show forth that Christ-like nature in this life, to the degree we crucify the flesh.

2 Corinthians 5:

2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. 4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life.

This is our glorified body, transfigured by the Spirit of Christ. This is the meaning to the newness of life in Christ.

Romans 12:1 beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

2 Corinthians 3:18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.

transformed-metamorphoo [G3339], same word used in Matthew and Mark, "He was transfigured before them". If you ask the Holy Spirit why transfigured in used in the Gospels, and transformed used in the apostolic teaching, He will tell you that the translators did not what to apply to us what is being described of Christ. The thing is, that is exactly what the Spirit IS saying, that He is able to transfigure us into a perfect reflection of Christ's glory, only as we subject ourselves to the Lord's discipline, in crucifying the desires of the flesh.

20 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

So, if NO SIN FLESH can go to be with the Lord in Heaven, AND those who are raised at the Last Trump are raised as Spirit Men like verse 42 tells us, then those of us still alive, MUST BE CHANGED, which merely means we leave this evil sin flesh behind, and go to Heaven as Spirit Men, just like those who rest or sleep in the Lord do when they are raised, as verse 42 shows us.

Romans 8:

11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.

All of these scriptures form the basis for how I understand what Paul is describing in 1 Corinthians 15:

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 

54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

I remain unable to accept the idea of a billion dead bodies lying around. That may remain your view, but it would seem to be unique. You are determined to present yourself as having a fresh revelation concerning the tribulation, the resurrection, and judgment, but what has 38 years of becoming an expert on prophecy availed in the crucifying of your sinful nature? Here is the one place  where your terminology SIN FLESH is approximately.

Romans 8:

3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 

4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Clearly, Christ died so that we could overcome the sinful flesh nature. To be overcomers, that is what we are chosen for in this life.

Edited May 24, 2023 by Mr. M
amend text

[Revelation Man]

22 hours ago, Mr. M said:

 What I must do is try to reconcile these scriptures to what you are teaching.

 

No, what you did is COMPLETLY DODGE the facts I showed. Since you did not understand that we are raised as SPIRIT MEN like I showed in verses 42-44, why would I look at other scriptures when you are dodging the very passage that proved I am correct. We are raised as SPIRUT MEN, thus we are raised WITHOUT CORRUPTION, translation, we have no sun flesh when raised, thus why do we who are ALIVE and REMAIN needed to be CHANGED? Because our SIN FLESH can not enter Heaven, thus we CHANGE or simply leave our Flesh Body behind and go to Heaven as Spirit Men.

 

None of those scriptures you cite are going to change this brother. Thus I do not need to read them and chase ghosts. 

Edited May 25, 2023 by Revelation Man

[Mr. M]

23 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

No, what you did is COMPLETLY DODGE the facts I showed. Since you did nit understand that we are raised as SPIRIT MEN like I showed in verse 42, why would I look at other scriptures when you are dodging the very passage that proved I am correct. We are raised as SPIRUT MEN, thus we are raised WITHOUT CORRUPTION, translation, we have no sun flesh when raised, thus why do we who are ALIVE and REMAIN needed to be CHANGED? Because our SIN FLESH can not enter Heaven, thus we CHANGE or simply leave our Flesh Body behind and go to Heaven as Spirit Men.

 

None of those scriptures you cite are going to change this brother. Thus I do not need to read them and chase ghosts. 

Your personal interpretation of 1 Co 15 is just another opinion, and if you cannot reconcile your views with other passages, then you are not following the scriptural requirement that "every matter be established by two or three witnesses". You can ignore the scriptures I quoted, but they are completely relevant to the topic, and while they are certainly not ghosts, they may come back to haunt you later, as you hasten the day.

2 Peter 3:

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

 

[Revelation Man]

16 hours ago, Mr. M said:

Your personal interpretation of 1 Co 15 is just another opinion, and if you cannot reconcile your views with other passages,

When you address the points I made FIRST, then I can go and discuss the other passages, which no doubt, your confirmation bias, or misinterpretation of those passages will then be a salient discussion to have. But never answer a guy by posting other passages, while ignoring all of the salient points brought forth, that is not how a back and forth or a debate is done.

I explained 1 Cor. 15 in an easy to understand fashion, why it is that those who are alive and remain die. The word CHANGED simply means we change from the sinful sin flesh which verse 50 tells us CAN NOT ENTER Heaven, to the Spirit Man which verse 44 shows 100% is the case:

1 Cor. 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Since you could not refute my points you just skipped on to something else, that is a NO GO brother. If you can not refute the points I made then that means the points stand. What do you think, Paul and God lied when they said Sin Flesh CAN NOT enter Heaven in verse 50? Of course you do not really think that, but for some reason we get these old thoughts in our mind and we can not lose them. We do not fly away to heaven, and the Dead do not get raised with new bodies, they get raised, just as verse 44 says as SPIRITUAL MEN. Question, Demons are bodyless spirits, they travel, why is it people can not understand we go to heaven as Spirit Men, then get our Glorious bodies there. Do men who are later cast in  hell get new bodies? Of course not, they will be in hell as Spirit Men. We are made in the Image of God, we are Spirit Men. 

Now when you chose to reply to all of my salient points I can look at your other points and show you why they cant mean what you may or may not assume them to mean, or maybe why you are spot on, who knows. 

And by the way, the Day of the Lord is ONE DAY in which God's Wrath starts AND He starts taking back possession of this earth from Satan. That Wrath lasts for 1260 days then Jesus' rule lasts for 1000 years THEN after the 1000 years, it is still the DAY OF THE LORD, and Jesus/God burns up this whole Universe, I think this Universe and/or our earth is Hell. 

 

God Bless

 

Edited May 25, 2023 by Revelation Man

[Mr. M]

3 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

And by the way, the Day of the Lord is ONE DAY in  Which God's Wrath starts AND He starts taking back possession of this earth from Satan. That Wrath lasts for 1260 days then Jesus' rule lasts for 1000 years THEN after the 1000 years, it is still the DAY OF THE LORD, and Jesus/God burns up this whole Universe, I think this Universe and/or our earth is Hell. 

That's deep. Thanks, but no thanks.

[Revelation Man]

4 hours ago, Mr. M said:

That's deep. Thanks, but no thanks.

I understand, I proved I was correct on the 1 Billion dying so instead of facing that factoid you tried to divert the subject, when I wouldn't play along it defused the situation. 

[Mr. M]

5 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

I understand, I proved I was correct on the 1 Billion dying so instead of facing that factoid you tried to divert the subject, when I wouldn't play along it defused the situation. 

I got it. 5/10=1/2. Solid.

What I did not get is what I actually quoted you on.

10 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

And by the way, the Day of the Lord is ONE DAY in  Which God's Wrath starts AND He starts taking back possession of this earth from Satan. That Wrath lasts for 1260 days then Jesus' rule lasts for 1000 years THEN after the 1000 years, it is still the DAY OF THE LORD, and Jesus/God burns up this whole Universe, I think this Universe and/or our earth is Hell. 

 

Maybe it is the Milky Hell galaxy! Anyway, don't let me distract you from tracking those asteroids.

On 5/23/2023 at 5:11 PM, Revelation Man said:

Apophis the asteroid is heading our way as we speak.

2 Thus says the Lord:

Do not learn the way of the Gentiles;
Do not be dismayed at the signs of heaven,
For the Gentiles are dismayed at them.

BTW: excellent use of the word 'factoid'.

Edited May 25, 2023 by Mr. M
added text