CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE vs. JEWISH TRADITION

[dhchristian]

Just now, BibleGuy said:

WRONG!  The Torah is NOT SIN (Rom.7:7).

I am not saying the Torah is sin, I am saying it is a schoolmaster that Leads to Christ Jesus. Until you fix this your theology will continue to be heretical, and blasphemous to Jesus. 

Do you recall the Brasen Serpent? That is what you are doing with the Torah by Equating it with God. He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan. (2 Kings 18:4)

This Brasen Serpent, a blessing from God Was turned into an idol, and you are doing the same with Torah by elevating it to God. This is a grievous error on your part, and on the part of many in the so called Hebrew roots community. Do You now see what I am saying to you? Jesus is not the Torah, nor is the Torah Jesus, The Torah Points to Jesus.  

[BibleGuy]

20 hours ago, turtletwo said:

Amen.

1 Peter 1:18-19

"knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot."

Silver, gold, animal sacrifice...these all pale in comparison to His blood. Once Jesus atoned for sin, it was done for all time...verses 6, 12 & 14

Hebrews 10:4-6 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.

(Christ’s Death Fulfills God’s Will)

5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:

“Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me.

6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin, You had no pleasure.

Hebrews 10:10-14 By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 But every priest stands daily ministering and repetitively offering the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 

12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God. 

13 Since that time He has been waiting for His enemies to be made His footstool. 

14 For by one offering He has forever perfected those who are sanctified.

Nice!  And God DELIGHTS in proper bull sacrifices (Ps. 51:19), and Paul applies this to you (Eph.5:19;Col.3:16).

blessings...

[BibleGuy]

20 hours ago, turtletwo said:

Jesus was the perfect sacrifice. All the animal sacrifices in scripture simply pointed to His.) This is a poem I wrote Him.

 

The Sacrifice, The Highest Price (A Prayer To The Lamb Of God)

 

Oh Lamb of God, so perfect

Who deserved man's adoration

Instead you received mockery

And cruel degradation

 

They stripped You of all clothing

They whipped You violently

They put You on a splintered cross

To die for such as me

 

I marvel at Your anguish

Your beyond words agony

I'm grateful for Your Blood that flowed

Upon that wretched tree

 

Without it, there would be no hope

No way I could atone

The sacrifice, the highest price

Was paid by You alone

 

 

 

•  

AWESOME dude!

Love it!

I quoted it in full....

 

Just remember, the sacrifices CONTINUE (present tense, Col.2:17;Heb.10:1) to point to that perfect sacrifice.

And Jesus comes to restore those very sacrifices (Mal.3:4) to continue this ongoing shadow-function of Torah.

 

blessings...

 

[BibleGuy]

2 hours ago, Sonshine said:

@BibleGuy  Let’s discuss one scripture at a time.    Your choice.  

We use SCRIPTURE to interpret SCRIPTURE.....

"one Scripture at a time" is improper hermeneutics.

Paul applies ALL Torah to you (2Ti.3:16)....that's OBVIOUSLY not "one Scripture at a time"...that's applying ALL TORAH to you at once!

Jesus applies ALL Torah to you (Mt.5:19).  ALL at once.  Not just just "one scripture at a time".

blessings...

 

Edited December 9, 2019 by BibleGuy
typo

[BibleGuy]

7 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

I am not saying the Torah is sin, I am saying it is a schoolmaster that Leads to Christ Jesus. Until you fix this your theology will continue to be heretical, and blasphemous to Jesus. 

Do you recall the Brasen Serpent? That is what you are doing with the Torah by Equating it with God. He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan. (2 Kings 18:4)

This Brasen Serpent, a blessing from God Was turned into an idol, and you are doing the same with Torah by elevating it to God. This is a grievous error on your part, and on the part of many in the so called Hebrew roots community. Do You now see what I am saying to you? Jesus is not the Torah, nor is the Torah Jesus, The Torah Points to Jesus.  

"I am not saying the Torah is sin,"

Ok...whew!  Thanks for clarifying that one..... :-)

 

" I am saying it is a schoolmaster that Leads to Christ Jesus. Until you fix this your theology will continue to be heretical, and blasphemous to Jesus. "

We AGREE it's a schoolmaster!  I never denied it.

But it's MORE!  Paul never said it's ONLY A SCHOOLMASTER AND NOTHING MORE.....so until you fix this, your theology will continue to be heretical, and blasphemous to Jesus who requires ALL Torah (Mt.5:19) for ALL disciples of ALL nations (Mt.28:19-20).

Remember?

Torah is GOOD (Rom.7:12).  DO GOOD (Gal.6:10) thus entails OBEYING TORAH.

Torah is HOLY (Rom.7:12).  BE HOLY (1Pe.1:16) thus requires OBEYING TORAH (Peter even explicitly cites and applies Lev. 11 to you in 1Pe.1:16....so STOP eating pork!)

Torah is RIGHTEOUS (Rom.7:12).  DO RIGHTEOUSNESS (1Jn.2:29;3:7) or else you are a child of the devil (1Jn.3:10) who will NOT inherit the forthcoming kingdom (Mt.5:20).  So OBEY Torah!

Torah is SPIRITUAL (Rom.7:14).  SEEK AND DESIRE the spiritual (1Cor.14:1) thus entails OBEYING TORAH.

Torah defines SIN (Rom.3:20;7:7;1Jn.3:4).  STOP SINNING (1Cor.15:34) thus entails OBEYING TORAH.

The New Covenant is given as TORAH (Jer.31:33), so OF COURSE we should obey the Torah of the New Covenant in which we partake.

Torah is TRUTH (Ps.119:142) which is something we should REJOICE in (1Cor.13:6), not oppose.

Torah is of FAITH (Mt.23:23;Dt.32:20;Ps.119:30,86,138) which is a fruit of the SPIRIT (Gal.5:22-23).

Torah is our JOY (Ps.119:162), and that's a fruit of the Spirit, not something we oppose.

Our HOPE is in the covenants which are given as Torah (Eph.2:12;Jer.31:33).

PEACE is a fruit of the Spirit (Gal.5:22-23) which we have in LOVING TORAH (Ps.119:165), not in OPPOSING Torah.

Jesus IS the Torah (Jn.1:14), so OF COURSE we should obey Torah....Jesus personifies that very substance! (Col.2:17;Jn.1:14).

 

"Do you recall the Brasen Serpent? That is what you are doing with the Torah by Equating it with God. He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan. (2 Kings 18:4)"

Don't be silly.  JOHN said JESUS IS TORAH (Jn.1:14).  Argue with John....not with me.

We LIFT UP OUR HANDS to Torah (Ps.119:148)....PAUL applies this to you (Eph.5:19;Col.3:16).

Torah is of divine authority....so OF COURSE it is exalted!

We PRAISE THE TORAH (Ps. 56:4,10)....not "remove" it!

PAUL applies these Psalms to you (Eph.5:19;Col.3:16).

 

"This Brasen Serpent, a blessing from God Was turned into an idol"

Torah is NOT the "brasen serpent".  So your argument fails.

 

"and you are doing the same with Torah by elevating it to God. "

Argue with John (Jn.1:14).

 

" This is a grievous error on your part, and on the part of many in the so called Hebrew roots community"

Argue with John (Jn.1:14).

 

"Do You now see what I am saying to you? Jesus is not the Torah, nor is the Torah Jesus,"

Now read Jn.1:14.

 

"The Torah Points to Jesus.  "

And Jesus points to TORAH! (Mt.4:4;5:19-20,48;7:21-23;13:41-42;22:37;23:2-3,23,34;Lk.10:25-28).

BECAUSE THEY ARE THE SAME SUBSTANCE (Jn.1:14;Col.2:17).

STOP trying to separate Torah from Jesus.

Jesus REQUIRES all Torah (Mt.5:19) for ALL disciples of ALL nations (given Mt.28:19-20).

 

blessings...

 

[BibleGuy]

10 minutes ago, Sonshine said:

I need to explain, if not one, then a few scriptures at a time, because I can see we don’t agree on many extremely important Christian doctrines. 

 

Well "Christian Doctrine" is ambiguous....there are MANY MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE Christian theological viewpoints both now, and throughout the past 2000 years.

Which doctrine concerns you?

blessings....

 

[BibleGuy]

On 12/8/2019 at 6:32 AM, choir loft said:

You write the LAW is weak because of the flesh.   St. Paul wrote it was obsolete and is passing away.... (Hebrews 8:13)

Matthew 5:17 quotes Jesus as saying, "I did not come to abolish the LAW or the prophets.  I came to fulfill it."

THE QUESTION before us is thus:

If the LAW is NOT ABOLISHED and if Christ fulfilled it, then what part of the LAW is weak?  Which part of the LAW was becoming obsolete as Paul wrote?

No one can be saved apart from the LAW.  Why?  Sunday school 101 tells us the LAW convicts us of sin.   Conviction of sin inspires repentance which in turn leads to forgiveness salvation and the gift of grace.  Grace allows us to live according to THE LAW - thus pleasing God.  LAW and GRACE thus work together, but what part of the LAW was weak and which part was passing away?

The book of Exodus establishes God's remedy for sin.   That remedy for the wages of sin is death.  Since God desires man to be free of guilt He established the LAW which not only convicts of sin, but provides a sacrifice for it.  In Exodus and again in Leviticus the sacrifice for sin was the death of animals.  Death pays for the sins of a sinner because the life of a creature is in its blood.

Unfortunately the LAW as written in Exodus is imperfect BECAUSE animal blood is temporary.   Animal sacrifice was required continually because an animal is mortal.   Animal sacrifice had to be performed again and again.  Jesus' sacrifice is permanent because of Jesus' immortal nature - because Jesus IS God.  The death of Christ is therefore a perfect fulfillment of the LAW, not the abolition of it.  The LAW still stands in all its weight and power.   

When Paul wrote the LAW was passing away, animal sacrifices were still being performed in the Jerusalem temple.  He knew the meaning of Jesus' words quoted by Matthew.   The perfect sacrifice of Christ on the cross is only needed once and applies perpetually because of His immortal nature.   Also because of His immortal nature He is able to impute His righteousness and His life to those who accept it - also according to Exodus.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LICENSE TO SIN.

When folks use grace as an excuse to sin, dogmatically stating they're saved by grace not LAW, they are speaking error.   Why?  Because they know neither LAW nor GRACE nor how God expects them to live - according to the LAW enabled by GRACE. 

Jews do not understand GRACE and hold to tradition which cannot save.

Christians do not understand LAW and hold to doctrine which cannot save either.

Both stumble over Christ who is the cornerstone of human redemption.

I once attended a Baptist church hosting a guest speaker.  The sermon was delivered by the Dean of a local Bible college and the subject was grace.  At the end of the sermon he said, "go out and sin this week that grace may abound."

One way or another God will have an end to SIN.  Either it will end in a sinner's repentance or it will end in a sinner's death ! 

The LAW defines it and Grace never allows for it.  The LAW still stands and GRACE is not a get-out-of-jail-free card to be liberally applied to any filthy thing one wants to put his hand upon.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

"St. Paul wrote it was obsolete and is passing away.... (Hebrews 8:13)"

Why assume Paul wrote Hebrews?

 

 

[Resurrection Priest]

1 hour ago, BibleGuy said:

Paul condoned a sacrifice-laden-vow to prove he walked "orderly according to the law" (Ac.21), implying Paul UPHOLDS animal-sacrifice-Torah.

THOUSANDS of 1st-century Christians were zealous for ALL Torah (thus including sacrifices, Ac. 21:20).

Some Christians are even animal-sacrificing priests! (Ac.6:7).

Acts Ctp 21:  "James and all the elders" told Paul to offer sacrifice and pay for the sacrifices of the other men who had taken the Nazarite Vow, "so that all those things of which they were informed concerning you are nothing, but that you yourself also walk orderly and keep the law." 

So Paul acted his part as a Jew, in order to reach Jews.  1 Corinthians 9:20 "And to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law, though not being myself under the Law, that I might win those who are under the Law; (1Co 9:20 NAS)

 

VERSE 25:  "But concerning the Gentiles who believe, we have written and decided that they should observe no such thing, except that they should keep themselves from things offered to idols, from [eating] blood, from things strangled and from sexual immorality." 

 

It was obviously NOT a sin for Gentile converts NOT to offer sacrifices.  In fact, they were told NOT TO. 

It was NOT even a sin for believing Jews NOT to offer sacrifices.  Paul stayed away for some 14 years.  He even ate meat offered to idols, explaining that the idols couldn't change the food.  Everything in the markets of pagan cities was presented to idols before being sold (except the vegetables).  Paul did not tell folks to eat only vegetables.  He said that some ate only vegetables, and that mature believers should not do anything to cause a brother to stumble or doubt. 

And it was NOT a sin for believing Jews to offer sacrifices.  The LORD never directly told them to stop.  He just allowed that Temple to be destroyed, thus making it impossible. 

I don't believe we should hold those believing Jews up as examples for how we should live today, or as examples of what the LORD will do (re: a Temple) in the future.  There WILL be a Temple.  We - the redeemed - may (or may not) be instructed by Christ, to present the blood of dead animals to God.  I personally DO NOT believe that we will. 

The Temple of Jerusalem has been gone for more years than it stood. 

The Tabernacle of old went through so much turmoil after crossing Jordan, that folks back then weren't even sure where they should bring sacrifices, or who should officially be High Priest.  At one time there were two men claiming that office.   By the time of Christ, the office of High Priest was appointed by the Romans (who understood its power).  Annas and his 5 sons + 1 son in law (Ciaphas) had rotated the position among them.  So much for the purity of the priesthood, at that time.  (I'm not saying they were all corrupt.  Many were very devout.  Many believed on Jesus as the Messiah.) 

[Resurrection Priest]

53 minutes ago, BibleGuy said:

proper bull sacrifices (Ps. 51:19), and Paul applies this to you (Eph.5:19;Col.3:16)

So Paul disagreed with the Jerusalem elders?  They all said the believing Gentiles should NOT offer sacrifices at the Temple.  See my last post.

Ephesians 5:19 "Sing psalms and hymns and inspired songs among yourselves, singing and chanting to the Lord in your hearts,"  (NJB). 

Colossians 3:16 "Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and exhorting one another with all wisdom, singing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, all with grace in your hearts to God." (NET)

Psalm 51 context: David is pleading for forgiveness.  He has sinned - big time.  He knows the LORD will not accept his sacrifices.  WHEN he repents and WHEN the LORD forgives him, THEN his sacrifices will once again be accepted.  David seems to understand that only the LORD can "create" in him "a clean heart".  It is that heart David longs for - that restoration of relationship with his God. 

We should long for that too.

That Psalm is not predicting or commanding that we should/or ever will (in the future) present dead bulls to the LORD. 

[BibleGuy]

39 minutes ago, Sonshine said:

The one that concerns why our Savior died.

Ok...Christ died for us (Rom.5:8)...His blood alone takes away our sins (1Jn.1:7).

Anything else?

blessings...