Alive Posted December 1, 2019 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 22 Topic Count: 194 Topics Per Day: 0.11 Content Count: 11,053 Content Per Day: 6.55 Reputation: 9,015 Days Won: 36 Joined: 09/12/2019 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/09/1956 Share Posted December 1, 2019 2Th. 2:1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. This is perfectly clear, is it not? The Lord's coming to take us away happens after the antichrist character is revealed and sets himself up as god in the temple. Why then would there be controversy about this. isn't it clear that this takes place in the middle of the week? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldCoot Posted December 1, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 13 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,192 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 429 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/29/2017 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/12/1957 Share Posted December 1, 2019 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Alive said: 2Th. 2:1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. This is perfectly clear, is it not? The Lord's coming to take us away happens after the antichrist character is revealed and sets himself up as god in the temple. Why then would there be controversy about this. isn't it clear that this takes place in the middle of the week? Not in the Greek. The Greek apostasia simply means "departure". And without an object to show what is being departed from, it was wrong for the translators to assume it was a departing from the faith, or "falling away". The other instance of apostasia used in the NT is in Acts 21:21, and there it specifically references what is being departed from... the Torah. And there is legitimate to say that it is a departing from the faith, as it were. The similar word, aphistemi, has the equivalent meaning. And in 8 out of 13 times it is used in the NT, it has in view a physical distancing or departure. Every English translation, and the Latin Vulgate, simply translated 2 Thessalonians 2:3 as "departure/departing", "a departure/departing", "the departure/departing". The LV uses dicessio, which means departure. So, the context of the passage is laid out in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3..... the day of Christ and our gathering to Him. Nothing about our departing from Him. So the context supports that this "departing" is the gathering to the Lord. And the verse 3 shows "that day" (the day of Christ) and the revealing of the son of perdition will not happen until the departing takes place first. Yes. It is very clear. Only some translators muddied things up. Edited December 1, 2019 by OldCoot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alive Posted December 1, 2019 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 22 Topic Count: 194 Topics Per Day: 0.11 Content Count: 11,053 Content Per Day: 6.55 Reputation: 9,015 Days Won: 36 Joined: 09/12/2019 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/09/1956 Share Posted December 1, 2019 1 minute ago, OldCoot said: Not in the Greek. The Greek apostasia simply means "departure". And without an object to show what is being departed from, it was wrong for the translators to assume it was a departing from the faith, or "falling away". Every English translation, and the Latin Vulgate, simply translated 2 Thessalonians 2:3 as "departure/departing", "a departure/departing", "the departure/departing". The LV uses dicessio, which means departure. So, the context of the passage is laid out in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3..... the day of Christ and our gathering to Him. Nothing about our departing from Him. So the context supports that this "departing" is the gathering to the Lord. And the verse 3 shows "that day" (the day of Christ) and the revealing of the son of perdition will not happen until the departing takes place first. Yes. It is very clear. I am confused as to why you mentioned the stuff in orange. The rest of the stuff Paul mentioned is clear as a bell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alive Posted December 1, 2019 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 22 Topic Count: 194 Topics Per Day: 0.11 Content Count: 11,053 Content Per Day: 6.55 Reputation: 9,015 Days Won: 36 Joined: 09/12/2019 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/09/1956 Share Posted December 1, 2019 (edited) 646. ἀποστασία; apostasia, apostasias, hē (afistamai), a falling away, defection, apostasy; in the Bible namely, … Mounce Greek Dictionary (Greek Entry) GK G686 | S G646 ἀποστασία apostasia 2x a falling away, a rebellion, apostasy, Acts 21:21; 2 Thess. 2:3* … Key Dictionary of Greek NT (Greek Entry) 646. ἀποστασία apostasia; feminine of the same as 647; defection from truth (properly, the state) (“apostasy”) … Greek Strong’s Dictionary (Greek Entry) 646. ἀποστασία apostasia, ap-os-tas-ee´-ah; feminine of the same as 647; defection from truth (properly, the state) … NAS Greek Dictionary (Greek Entry) 646. ἀποστασία apostasia; from 868; defection, revolt … NIDNTT (Greek Entry) … go away, withdraw, depart, fall away; ἀποστασία G686 (apostasia), rebellion, abandonment, state of apostasy, defection; ἀποστάσιον G687 (apostasion), … 2Th. 2:1 Ἐρωτῶμεν δὲ ὑμᾶς, ἀδελφοί, ὑπὲρ τῆς παρουσίας τοῦ Κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, καὶ ἡμῶν ἐπισυναγωγῆς ἐπ᾿ αὐτόν, 2 εἰς τὸ μὴ ταχέως σαλευθῆναι ὑμᾶς ἀπὸ τοῦ νοός, μήτε θροεῖσθαι, μήτε διὰ πνεύματος, μήτε διὰ λόγου, μήτε δι᾿ ἐπιστολῆς ὡς δι᾿ ἡμῶν, ὡς ὅτι ἐνέστηκεν ἡ ἡμέρα τοῦ Χριστοῦ· 3 μή τις ὑμᾶς ἐξαπατήσῃ κατὰ μηδένα τρόπον· ὅτι ἐὰν μὴ ἔλθῃ ἡ ἀποστασία πρῶτον, καὶ ἀποκαλυφθῇ ὁ ἄνθρωπος τῆς ἁμαρτίας, ὁ υἱὸς τῆς ἀπωλείας, 4 ὁ ἀντικείμενος καὶ ὑπεραιρόμενος ἐπὶ πάντα πᾶν τὸ λεγόμενον Θεὸν ἢ σέβασμα, ὥστε αὐτὸν εἰς τὸν ναὸν τοῦ Θεοῦ ὡς Θεὸν καθίσαι, ἀποδεικνύντα ἑαυτὸν ὅτι ἐστὶν Θεός. Edited December 1, 2019 by Alive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldCoot Posted December 1, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 13 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,192 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 429 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/29/2017 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/12/1957 Share Posted December 1, 2019 Just now, Alive said: I am confused as to why you mentioned the stuff in orange. The rest of the stuff Paul mentioned is clear as a bell. Because it is important to verify the translations. Many translations will interject translator bias and interpretation. The Living Bible type of stuff really does it to an extreme. And context of a passage is critical. There is no context that shows what is happening is a falling away. The context of the passage is our gathering to Him. So it then, if there is a glaring conflict between our gathering to Him and our departing from Him (falling away), one needs to look at the text deeper and evaluate if really a "falling away" is correct. And in this case, it is not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alive Posted December 1, 2019 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 22 Topic Count: 194 Topics Per Day: 0.11 Content Count: 11,053 Content Per Day: 6.55 Reputation: 9,015 Days Won: 36 Joined: 09/12/2019 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/09/1956 Share Posted December 1, 2019 Oh I get that....I have always understood that there will be a great falling away within christendom at the same time as a restoration. I see no conflict within this text. I don't understand why you are citing a conflict. The falling away (which isn't actually in the original) takes place before His return for us along with the other clear indicators. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldCoot Posted December 1, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 13 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,192 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 429 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/29/2017 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/12/1957 Share Posted December 1, 2019 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Alive said: 646. ἀποστασία; apostasia, apostasias, hē (afistamai), a falling away, defection, apostasy; in the Bible namely, … Mounce Greek Dictionary (Greek Entry) GK G686 | S G646 ἀποστασία apostasia 2x a falling away, a rebellion, apostasy, Acts 21:21; 2 Thess. 2:3* … Key Dictionary of Greek NT (Greek Entry) 646. ἀποστασία apostasia; feminine of the same as 647; defection from truth (properly, the state) (“apostasy”) … Greek Strong’s Dictionary (Greek Entry) 646. ἀποστασία apostasia, ap-os-tas-ee´-ah; feminine of the same as 647; defection from truth (properly, the state) … NAS Greek Dictionary (Greek Entry) 646. ἀποστασία apostasia; from 868; defection, revolt … NIDNTT (Greek Entry) … go away, withdraw, depart, fall away; ἀποστασία G686 (apostasia), rebellion, abandonment, state of apostasy, defection; ἀποστάσιον G687 (apostasion), … 2Th. 2:1 Ἐρωτῶμεν δὲ ὑμᾶς, ἀδελφοί, ὑπὲρ τῆς παρουσίας τοῦ Κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, καὶ ἡμῶν ἐπισυναγωγῆς ἐπ᾿ αὐτόν, 2 εἰς τὸ μὴ ταχέως σαλευθῆναι ὑμᾶς ἀπὸ τοῦ νοός, μήτε θροεῖσθαι, μήτε διὰ πνεύματος, μήτε διὰ λόγου, μήτε δι᾿ ἐπιστολῆς ὡς δι᾿ ἡμῶν, ὡς ὅτι ἐνέστηκεν ἡ ἡμέρα τοῦ Χριστοῦ· 3 μή τις ὑμᾶς ἐξαπατήσῃ κατὰ μηδένα τρόπον· ὅτι ἐὰν μὴ ἔλθῃ ἡ ἀποστασία πρῶτον, καὶ ἀποκαλυφθῇ ὁ ἄνθρωπος τῆς ἁμαρτίας, ὁ υἱὸς τῆς ἀπωλείας, 4 ὁ ἀντικείμενος καὶ ὑπεραιρόμενος ἐπὶ πάντα πᾶν τὸ λεγόμενον Θεὸν ἢ σέβασμα, ὥστε αὐτὸν εἰς τὸν ναὸν τοῦ Θεοῦ ὡς Θεὸν καθίσαι, ἀποδεικνύντα ἑαυτὸν ὅτι ἐστὶν Θεός. Nice. Did you happen to even notice that "depart" is part of the definitions? And something that also should be noted is that concordances are written by translators, the same folks who do translations which is the problem here. Concordances are not scripture. There are many Greek Scholars who concur that in the text of 2 Thessalonians 2:3, within the context of the previous two verses, that apostasia can only mean "departure". And in that context, the departure is the gathering to the Lord. Dr. Kenneth Wuest, Dr. Andy Woods, Dr. Ed Hinson, et al have all done extensive treatises on this matter and those treatises are readily available to anyone who wants to study it out for themselves. Based on what you did, I can safely assume you, as well as I, are not Greek scholars. So we have to rely on those who are. Edited December 1, 2019 by OldCoot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldCoot Posted December 1, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 13 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,192 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 429 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/29/2017 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/12/1957 Share Posted December 1, 2019 Just now, Alive said: Oh I get that....I have always understood that there will be a great falling away within christendom at the same time as a restoration. I see no conflict within this text. I don't understand why you are citing a conflict. The falling away (which isn't actually in the original) takes place before His return for us along with the other clear indicators. There has always been "falling aways" in church history. To make a "falling away" a condition of the end really is vagueness taken to an extreme. In real estate, it is all about location, location, location. In scripture hermeneutics, it is all about context, context, context. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alive Posted December 1, 2019 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 22 Topic Count: 194 Topics Per Day: 0.11 Content Count: 11,053 Content Per Day: 6.55 Reputation: 9,015 Days Won: 36 Joined: 09/12/2019 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/09/1956 Share Posted December 1, 2019 This is true--I have forgotten most of what I learned from my early greek courses. Ok--let's say that the so called 'falling away' is not scripture--it does not change the rest of the indicators and that is what I was focusing on. Thank you, by the way. This is interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alive Posted December 1, 2019 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 22 Topic Count: 194 Topics Per Day: 0.11 Content Count: 11,053 Content Per Day: 6.55 Reputation: 9,015 Days Won: 36 Joined: 09/12/2019 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/09/1956 Share Posted December 1, 2019 Its clear that the Thessalonians were being troubled by those saying the Lord had come. Paul was clearing this up for them and cited the salient points that were expressed. I am looking more closely at the apostasy. It sure does seem to connote sin or 'the sin'. I will consider this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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