Can we determine the TIMING of the Rapture from Paul?

[wingnut-]

35 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

It should be clear:

⁶ And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.

⁷ And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.

 

It should be, yet it escapes you.  Instead of just deciding you know everything, why don't you actually take something and consider it for a moment.  Maybe ask God about it?

If you pay attention, in verse 6 you see they already have the 7 plagues.  In verse 7 they are given the vials, which are already full, so clearly they are not the same thing.  You claim to consider things, you claim to take things to God, but the time from when this was posted to when you dismissed it was 1 hr.  And that was just from when I posted it, it probably took you less than 5 minutes to disagree, you consider nothing.

 

[The Light]

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

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Please explain your reasoning. The Jews at this point in time probably still don't believe in Jesus. Therefore it MUST be Gentiles. We are of the "seed" of the woman for JEsus came from Israel and the church sprang up from the Seed.

There are 144,000 first fruits of the twelve tribes. These first fruits guarantee a harvest of the 12 tribes that are scattered across the earth. Gentiles can be seen in heaven in Rev 5. This is before any seals have been opened. The first 6 seals are the tribulation.

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Agreed, the church is raptured pretrib: just before the 6th seal,

The Church is raptured pre trib but not just before the 6th seal. This is something that you are imagining. There is no verse that supports this view, and we can already see the Church in heaven. We already see the Church in heaven before any seals are open.

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  and the "trib" beginning with the 7th seal.

Seems that the Bible says that is the Wrath of God. Tribulation is already over.

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The first five seals have been opened since Jesus ascended and got the book into His own hands. 

Something that you have dreamed up. It is not supported by scripture.

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We are at the 5th seal with martyrs STILL being added to that number.

Only in your mind.

 

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At the end of 7 years there will be a prewrath rapture that will be of the 12 tribes.   I sure hope you can show this in scripture. I have never seen such a  verse.

The Church is gathered from heaven as they are there pre trib. The twelve tribes are gathered from the earth as God keeps his promise to His people after the fulness of the Gentiles comes in.

Matt 24

²⁷ For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

²⁸ For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

²⁹ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

³⁰ And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

³¹ And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13

²⁵ And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

²⁶ And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

²⁷ And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Rev 6

¹² And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

¹³ And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

¹⁴ And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

¹⁵ And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

¹⁶ And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

¹⁷ For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

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NO, the number of days where there will be great tribulation (GT) will be shortened when God pours out the vials of His wrath.

You probable need to have an understanding that there is a difference between the tribulation and the wrath of God.

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The effects of the vials will render the armies of the Beast totally incapable of carrying out any kind of hunting down of saints and killing them. They days will certainly continue on to the 1260th day that will end the week, but they will no longer be days of GT.  They will just be days of fear for most people on the earth.

The tribulation is over before the 7th seal is opened. The 7th seal starts the wrath of God.

 

[The Light]

7 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi The Light,

Rev. 6: 12 - 17 refers to the specific Day of the Lord. However the word `Day,` also means a `time period and the Day of the Lord Time Period starts when the Lord comes (as a thief) and starts the judgments upon the world as this scripture tells us.

` You yourselves know perfectly that the Day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.  

For when they are saying "Peace and Safety!" then SUDDEN DESTRUCTION comes upon them as labour pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.` (1 Thess. 5: 2 & 3)

Marilyn. 

 

Greetings Marilyn.

I'm not sure what the point is.

[The Light]

18 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

I guess I already answered this in reality. Those who reprent are protected. The 144,000 NEVER WITNESS, go find it, you can't. LOL.......I know, I tried.

 

What I can find is that the 144,000 are first fruits and redeemed from the earth. That guarantees that there will be a harvest of the 12 tribes. It will occur prewrath as we can see in Matt 24 and Rev 6. This can't be the church as we see them in heaven in Rev 5

[iamlamad]

7 hours ago, The Light said:

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Please explain your reasoning. The Jews at this point in time probably still don't believe in Jesus. Therefore it MUST be Gentiles. We are of the "seed" of the woman for JEsus came from Israel and the church sprang up from the Seed.

There are 144,000 first fruits of the twelve tribes. These first fruits guarantee a harvest of the 12 tribes that are scattered across the earth. Gentiles can be seen in heaven in Rev 5. This is before any seals have been opened. The first 6 seals are the tribulation.

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Agreed, the church is raptured pretrib: just before the 6th seal,

The Church is raptured pre trib but not just before the 6th seal. This is something that you are imagining. There is no verse that supports this view, and we can already see the Church in heaven. We already see the Church in heaven before any seals are open.

Well, you got the first part right: there will be 144,000: 12000 from each of 12 tribes. And they are called firstfruits. And that word hints very strongly there will be a more complete harvest.  So far, you are right on. 

I do wish you had posted a verse in chapter 5 for Gentiles. Perhaps you were thinking of that great crowd, too large to number in chapter 7?

The first 6 seals are the tribulation  If you are calling the church age "the tribulation" as John did in chapter 1, I can agree. But if by "the tribulation" you are meaning the 70th week of Daniel, you could not get any father from the truth.

Until readers understand chapters 4 & 5, and that in those two chapters God is showing us the TIMING of the first seals, they are going to miss the intent of the author from that point in. The truth of scripture in chapters 4 & 5 is that it is showing Jesus taking the book from the Father as soon as He ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down - then beginning RIGHT THEN to open the seals.

Seal one then, the white horse to represent righteousness, the crown to represent ultimate victory, riding out around 32 AD is to represent the church, sent out to take the gospel to the world.

The only problem with that scenario is that Satan is the god of this world, and he is going to resist the advance of the gospel with everything God will allow: war, famine, pestilence, even wild animals! This is what seals 2 through 4 represent. They ride together while the white horse and rider ride alone.

Then seal 5 is for the martyrs of the church age. They are told they must wait for the time of judgment until the very last church age martyr has been murdered. In other words, they will wait for the pretrib rapture that ENDS the church age, making the very last church age martyr. 

Note carefully, John has not yet started the 70th week. He is very much still in the church age. In fact, there ARE verses that support this: seal 5 and 6 support it, and 1 Thes, 5 supports it. Paul tells us that the rapture and the Day of the Lord are back to back events that CANNOT be separated: the rapture will be the TRIGGER for the day of the Lord and His wrath.

Paul tells us there are two different groups of people that get two different results at the very same moment of time: a moment after the dead in Christ are raised: those living in Christ get raptures, and so ESCAPE the sudden destruction that will come at the 6th seal. On the other hand, all those NOT living in Christ get left behind, and they suffer the sudden destruction of the 6th seal and God's wrath.  Paul clinches the nail on the other side on this timing by telling us that God will not set any appointments with His wrath for those living in Christ, showing us the flip side: he DOES set appointments with His wrath for those NOT living in Christ. Paul is PINPOINTING the timing of his rapture event as a moment before God's wrath begins as in the DAY of His wrath or the Day of the Lord.

Therefore, up to the 6th seal is THE CHURCH AGE, the 6th seal starts judgment and the Day of the Lord. The 7th seal starts the 70th week.

Finally, John saw the church in heaven in chapter 7, AFTER the first 6 seals, as the great crowd, too large to number - showing us that the rapture had just happened - a moment before the 6th seal earthquake.

[iamlamad]

7 hours ago, The Light said:

What I can find is that the 144,000 are first fruits and redeemed from the earth. That guarantees that there will be a harvest of the 12 tribes. It will occur prewrath as we can see in Matt 24 and Rev 6. This can't be the church as we see them in heaven in Rev 5

This is the second time you mention chapter 5: SHOW US THE VERSE!

[iamlamad]

7 hours ago, The Light said:

Greetings Marilyn.

I'm not sure what the point is.

The point is, your posts show you have missed completely the real timing given here by scripture.

` You yourselves know perfectly that the Day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.  

The DAY comes because HE comes (for the rapture) as a thief in the night. This is what Paul teaches us as for the timing of the rapture. It comes a moment before the DAY.

[iamlamad]

7 hours ago, The Light said:

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At the end of 7 years there will be a prewrath rapture that will be of the 12 tribes.   I sure hope you can show this in scripture. I have never seen such a  verse.

The Church is gathered from heaven as they are there pre trib. The twelve tribes are gathered from the earth as God keeps his promise to His people after the fulness of the Gentiles comes in.

Matt 24

²⁷ For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

²⁸ For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

²⁹ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

³⁰ And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

³¹ And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13

²⁵ And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

²⁶ And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

²⁷ And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Rev 6

¹² And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

¹³ And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

¹⁴ And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

¹⁵ And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

¹⁶ And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

¹⁷ For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

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NO, the number of days where there will be great tribulation (GT) will be shortened when God pours out the vials of His wrath.

You probable need to have an understanding that there is a difference between the tribulation and the wrath of God.

Quote

The effects of the vials will render the armies of the Beast totally incapable of carrying out any kind of hunting down of saints and killing them. They days will certainly continue on to the 1260th day that will end the week, but they will no longer be days of GT.  They will just be days of fear for most people on the earth.

The tribulation is over before the 7th seal is opened. The 7th seal starts the wrath of God.

I don't know why your posts never quote properly. I have to copy and paste.

The twelve tribes are gathered from the earth as God keeps his promise to His people after the fulness of the Gentiles comes in.

I guess what you are thinking is "he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other" this is the "prewrath rapture?"  Is this what you are meaning?

What you are MISSING:

^{Mat. 24:29} Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

^{Joel 3:15} The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining. ¹⁶ The Lord also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem

Note carefully what is really written here: if the moon is reflecting NO LIGHT - can it be SEEN? The answer is NO. I was living northwest of Mt Saint Helen's when she blew to top off. It turned dark as midnight by 2 or 3 in the afternoon. Question: can anyone see the sun at midnight? The answer is, NO. These verses, after the days of the 70th week and after the days of GT, Jesus returns, as seen in Joel: it is talking about TOTAL DARKNESS: not even the stars can be seen.  This is OBVIOUSLY after Jesus returns to earth and seen in Rev. 19. 

Rev 6:¹² And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

^{Joel 2:31} The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

Now, how is anyone to know the moon is red in color UNLESS THEY SEE IT? How can anyone know the sun appears black UNLESS THEY SEE IT? Note carefully WHEN: it is before the day of the Lord begins. In Revelation that is before the 6th seal in chapter 6.  In other words, chapters 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, and 18, must take place before we get to chapter 19 where Jesus returns to earth. My friend, these are TWO DIFFERENT SIGNS (very different in description) that will come at TWO DIFFERENT TIMES (over 7 years apart) and for TWO DIFFERENT purposes: the sign at the 6th seal and in Joel 2 is the sign for the Day of the Lord, while the sign in Matthew 24 and Joel 3 is the sign for the coming of the Lord. A post that posts these together, as if they are the same event, only shows a lack of understanding of these scriptures.  Don't take my word for it! Study the Hebrew and Greek: for the sign of His coming, the words mean a total absence of light!  It is talking total darkness.

I suspect the gathering in Matthew and Mark are speaking of God gathering all the Jews and Hebrews from both heaven and earth back to Israel. It is not any kind of rapture from mortal to immortality.

You probable need to have an understanding that there is a difference between the tribulation and the wrath of God.  You probable need to have an understanding that the wrath of God starts before the 70th week and continues on through the ENTIRE WEEK. In fact, Jesus has wrath at Armageddon. The truth then is this: it is impossible to separate (in time) the days of Satan's wrath and the days of God's wrath, for they happen AT THE SAME TIME.

The tribulation is over before the 7th seal is opened. The 7th seal starts the wrath of God. The 70th week BEGINS at the 7th seal, not ends! This thinking is 7 years off from the truth. Think about this: would the days of GT be included in "the tribulation?" Probably 99% of the church would agree. Where do we find the beheaded showing up in heaven? It is not until chapter 15! In other words, the days of GT are not until after God gives his warning in chapter 14. Again, the timing shown in this post is 7 years off! I would say the Day of His wrath begins at the great earthquake at the 6th seal, but I would not argue the point if you say the 7th.

 

[iamlamad]

9 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

It should be, yet it escapes you.  Instead of just deciding you know everything, why don't you actually take something and consider it for a moment.  Maybe ask God about it?

If you pay attention, in verse 6 you see they already have the 7 plagues.  In verse 7 they are given the vials, which are already full, so clearly they are not the same thing.  You claim to consider things, you claim to take things to God, but the time from when this was posted to when you dismissed it was 1 hr.  And that was just from when I posted it, it probably took you less than 5 minutes to disagree, you consider nothing.

 OF COURSE plagues are not wrath and wrath is not plagues. That is not what these verses say. What God is showing us is that the plagues will happen WITH WRATH.  When the first angels pours out his vial, then HIS PLAGUE will take place. And so on through the 7 vials of wrath. Each vial has an associated plague. It is not written out, but does not have to be - it is just understood. When a plague hits, it comes with God's FULL wrath.

Please understand, in Revelation God is giving us a very brief OUTLINE of events with few details. I wonder, do you ever read the commentators to see what they have to say?

Gill's Commentary:  these seven vials are for the seven last plagues to be put into, and out of which they are to be taken, or poured, and inflicted; see Revelation 21:9 hence it appears, that the seven plagues, and the wrath of God, are the same thing, and both design God's judgments upon antichrist; and these being expressed by "vials", which are measures, and large ones, show the large abundance and plenteous effusion of God's wrath, and the secret, sudden, and irresistible power of it; and yet that it will be poured out in measure, according to righteous judgment, and therefore it is put into vials;

They are said to have "the seven last plagues"; that is, in their vials; for these seven plagues are the same with the seven vials of the wrath of God, to be poured out upon antichrist; and are no other than so many steps, ways, and means, by which God will bring on and finish his destruction: these are called the last plagues, because they will be in the last days:

 

 

[iamlamad]

10 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

Actually no, your end times theology just got even more confused and unbelievable.  

You need to rethink what you said here if that is your position.  The two do not align with each other.

God bless

Please explain what does not align with what. I only quoted what John wrote. These were not difficult verses.