Can we determine the TIMING of the Rapture from Paul?

[dhchristian]

31 minutes ago, wingnut- said:

The great tribulation is a 3 1/2 year period which begins with the AoD, coincides with all of the 3 1/2 year time periods we find in Revelation, and runs to the very end of the week.  That's how it reads to me.

I Agree they all coincide, But see this as the first half of the week. I see the second half of the week being Jacob's trouble. Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him: But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them. (Jeremiah 30:7-9)

The Church is no more, what remains is part of the harlot, and this leads into the millennial reign of Christ. The beast has been destroyed (The Kingdom), the spirits of the dragon, the beast and the false prophet go and gather the kings of the earth for the final battle.

So to put this graphically:

First 3.5 years is Great tribulation,                                           Second half is Jacob's trouble.

A of D/ 1260 time of abominations/ gentiles                            Beast out of Bottomless pit, Harlot atop                                                                                                              emerge from wilderness.

1260 days women in the wilderness (Israel/church)                Woman Israel, restored Remainder of church becomes harlot 

1260 days 2 witnesses                                                                 Restoration of Israel begins.

Rapture 2witnesses/ church / resurrection of the dead            Judgment on Harlot/ Babylon

The day of Christ (2 thess 2)                                                       The gatherings of Israel and nations for Armageddon

                                                                                                      The Plagues of wrath

                                                                                                      The Final Battle

 

The final 3.5 years the following is accomplished:

to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. (Daniel 9:24b)  

And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. (Zech 12:10)

The Gog Magog/ Armageddon wars. 

If you do not divide it like this, there are literally only days left for all this to be accomplished assuming a 2550 day week, with the second 1260 beginning at the midpoint. 

Edited November 8, 2019 by dhchristian

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, wingnut- said:

And yet John attached the second woe to the two witnesses in chapter 11 rather than say it in chapter 9, like he did with the first woe.  You can't explain it, but you will certainly never convince anyone else not to see it, that much is clear.

This is what you need to be asking yourself.  I will never agree with you because I know you are wrong, so we'll leave it at that.

God bless

  Let's read it again:

¹⁴ The second woe (calamity) has passed; now the third woe is speedily to come.

As I have said over and over, This is only stating a fact: the second woe (6th trumpet) is indeed over. The 6th trumpet is found in chapter 9:

¹³ Then the sixth angel blew [his] trumpet....

For all those that ignore chronology, please understand, TIME passes as we read through this book!  In chapter 1 John was alive. Late in chapter 20 it is 3000 years later. My friends, this is TIME passing. 

From 9:13 to 11:14 TIME has passed, and the 6th trumpet is history. That is why John wrote, the second woe has passed. Note, he did NOT write, "just passed" as in a few moments before.

But WAIT! HOLD THE PHONE! Perhaps you read this passage like this:

¹³ And at that [very] hour there was a tremendous earthquake and one tenth of the city was destroyed (fell); seven thousand people perished in the earthquake, and those who remained were filled with dread and terror and were awe-struck, and they glorified the God of heaven.

¹⁴ The second woe (calamity) has passed; now the third woe is speedily to come.

Are you tying these two verses together in your mind, as if the great earthquake was a part of the 2nd woe? 

As I have pointed out countless times: it should be read like this:

 

11:1 A reed [as a measuring rod] was then given to me, [shaped] like a staff, and I was told: Rise up and measure the sanctuary of God and the altar [of incense], and [number] those who worship there.

² But leave out of your measuring the court outside the sanctuary of God; omit that, for it is given over to the Gentiles (the nations), and they will trample the holy city underfoot for 42 months (three and one-half years).

³ And I will grant the power of prophecy to My two witnesses for 1,260 (42 months; three and one-half years), dressed in sackcloth.

^{(11:4 - 11:13)}

¹⁴ The second woe (calamity) has passed; now the third woe is speedily to come.

¹⁵ The seventh angel then blew [his] trumpet, and there were mighty voices in heaven, shouting, The dominion (kingdom, sovereignty, rule) of the world has now come into the possession and become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ (the Messiah), and He shall reign forever and ever (for the eternities of the eternities)!

In other words, the earthquake has nothing to do with the 6th trumpet. It is inside a parenthesis with no bearing on chronology. John is at the midpoint: the earthquake will be at the END of the week. John takes the reader on a side journey down the last half of the week in a parenthesis. 

John's Chronology

11:1-2  Just days before the abomination - perhaps only 3.5 days before.

11:3  Exactly 2.5 days before the abomination

11:14 a moment before the abomination

11:15  the man of sin enters the temple and commits the abomination.

12:6  those in Judea begin fleeing

 

 

 

 

 

[iamlamad]

24 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

I Agree they all coincide, But see this as the first half of the week. I see the second half of the week being Jacob's trouble. Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him: But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them. (Jeremiah 30:7-9)

The Church is no more, what remains is part of the harlot, and this leads into the millennial reign of Christ. The beast has been destroyed (The Kingdom), the spirits of the dragon, the beast and the false prophet go and gather the kings of the earth for the final battle.

So to put this graphically:

First 3.5 years is Great tribulation,                                           Second half is Jacob's trouble.

A of D/ 1260 time of abominations/ gentiles                            Beast out of Bottomless pit, Harlot atop                                                                                                              emerge from wilderness.

1260 days women in the wilderness (Israel/church)                Woman Israel, restored Remainder of church becomes harlot 

1260 days 2 witnesses                                                                 Restoration of Israel begins.

Rapture 2witnesses/ church / resurrection of the dead            Judgment on Harlot/ Babylon

The day of Christ (2 thess 2)                                                       The gatherings of Israel and nations for Armageddon

                                                                                                      The Plagues of wrath

                                                                                                      The Final Battle

 

The final 3.5 years the following is accomplished:

to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. (Daniel 9:24b)  

And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. (Zech 12:10)

The Gog Magog/ Armageddon wars. 

If you do not divide it like this, there are literally only days left for all this to be accomplished assuming a 2550 day week, with the second 1260 beginning at the midpoint. 

Sorry, but you missed it: Jacob had to work an extra 7 years for the woman he loved - not a measly 3.5 years. No amount of arguments is going to change these 7 years. 

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, wingnut- said:

It doesn't read that way to me, it would appear we see things in different segments.  What I see is this in Matthew 24.

Matthew 24:15 “So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house, 18 and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak. 19 And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! 20 Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be.

The great tribulation is a 3 1/2 year period which begins with the AoD, coincides with all of the 3 1/2 year time periods we find in Revelation, and runs to the very end of the week.  That's how it reads to me. (emphasis added)

God bless

Hallelujah! We agree on this!

[wingnut-]

4 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

John takes the reader on a side journey down the last half of the week in a parenthesis. 

 

Again, that is your imaginary rabbit hole, you are going down it alone.  John attaches chapter 11 to the second woe, your entire premise is to eliminate verse 14 and rewrite scripture how you want it to appear.  If John wanted to separate them, he would have written this at the conclusion of the 6th trumpet in chapter 9 like he did with the 5th trumpet, he didn't, there is a reason it appears where it does.

 

God bless

[wingnut-]

42 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

If you do not divide it like this, there are literally only days left for all this to be accomplished assuming a 2550 day week, with the second 1260 beginning at the midpoint.

 

I don't believe it takes even a couple of days, it is sudden destruction, not gradual.  And Jacob's time of trouble is not 3.5 years from what I can find.  What you see as the first half I see as the second half, and I can show it in scripture that way but I am not going to do that in someone else's thread.

 

God bless

[dhchristian]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

Sorry, but you missed it: Jacob had to work an extra 7 years for the woman he loved - not a measly 3.5 years. No amount of arguments is going to change these 7 years. 

I Didn't exclude Israel from the first half of the week, all I did was include the church, that is you assuming, and you know what happens when you ass-u-me!

I Notice you do not care to address my logical conclusions (My if then statement), but instead gloss over it as if nothing happened. Here, let me state them again for you.

Jesus clearly did put the abomination at the beginning of the end as per Matthew 24:14-15 "...and then shall the end come...". Paul, who I am sure was familiar with this prophecy of Jesus, confirms this with what he has been shown in 2 Thess. 2:3-4 (Quoted above) except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Although Paul did not have any written gospels to work with he did have the testimony of the disciples as to the Words of Jesus, and this prophecy would have likely been handed down verbally if not recorded by a scribe and follower of Jesus. (Some theological theories suggest this as the source document for the synoptic gospels.)

The Book of Revelation also agrees with this. It squarely puts the Great tribulation before the Sixth seal, which Jesus Puts after the abomination in the Olivet Discourse. And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (Rev. 7:14)

So If the sixth seal is after the great tribulation, and the time of abominations is the great tribulation as per Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Then This means the A of D and the time of abominations is the first half of the week. (What is at fault with the logic here?) 

 

Buy the truth, and sell it not; also wisdom, and instruction, and understanding. (Prov. 23:23)

[iamlamad]

33 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

I Didn't exclude Israel from the first half of the week, all I did was include the church, that is you assuming, and you know what happens when you ass-u-me!

I Notice you do not care to address my logical conclusions (My if then statement), but instead gloss over it as if nothing happened. Here, let me state them again for you.

Jesus clearly did put the abomination at the beginning of the end as per Matthew 24:14-15 "...and then shall the end come...". Paul, who I am sure was familiar with this prophecy of Jesus, confirms this with what he has been shown in 2 Thess. 2:3-4 (Quoted above) except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Although Paul did not have any written gospels to work with he did have the testimony of the disciples as to the Words of Jesus, and this prophecy would have likely been handed down verbally if not recorded by a scribe and follower of Jesus. (Some theological theories suggest this as the source document for the synoptic gospels.)

The Book of Revelation also agrees with this. It squarely puts the Great tribulation before the Sixth seal, which Jesus Puts after the abomination in the Olivet Discourse. And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (Rev. 7:14)

So If the sixth seal is after the great tribulation, and the time of abominations is the great tribulation as per Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Then This means the A of D and the time of abominations is the first half of the week. (What is at fault with the logic here?) 

Buy the truth, and sell it not; also wisdom, and instruction, and understanding. (Prov. 23:23)

Here is what you wrote:  "But see this as the first half of the week. I see the second half of the week being Jacob's trouble. "  My point was, it MUST be the entire week as "Jacob's trouble. He did not work 3.5 years for the woman he loved.  In other words, Jacob's trouble is the ENTIRE week, not the first half, OR the second half. 

My if then statement  I will try to find it.

¹⁴ And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

¹⁵ When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Jesus had started with THEIR time, and covered the church age: "the end is not yet." Then got to the end of the age with verses 13 & 14 - speaking of His coming to set up His kingdom - seen in Chapter 19. 

Then He begins a NEW thought in verse 15: backing up from "the end" to the 70th week (which He had not mentioned at all in the previous verses; only talking of the church age). What I see here is Jesus just hitting the highlights. He jumped right over the first half of the week and landed right at the midpoint abomination.

Paul, who I am sure was familiar with this prophecy of Jesus,  I am not sure of this at all. His letters to the Thessalonians were perhaps the first books of the New Testament to be written. It is possible, but I doubt it. He did not confer much with the 11. 

except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition  I think this is a very poor translation. I think Paul's intent would be more like:  except there come a significant departing first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition...

The Book of Revelation also agrees with this. It squarely puts the Great tribulation before the Sixth seal,   I would really like for you to spend a complete post on this, laying out your proof line upon line. My opinion is that this theory is myth. John shows us that the beheaded only begin showing up in heaven in chapter 15, FAR LATER in the week. After all, the days of GT are created by the image and the mark being enforced: and it is the False Prophet that instigates these things. Notice carefully that the Beast rises up (is recognized as the Beast) at the MIDPOINT. The false prophet does not show up until some unknown time AFTER that. So what you suggest is simply impossible according to John - the way I read the text. In other words, the image and the mark will not be created or enforced until some unknown time after the midpoint. I would like to see your rebuttal and proof.

You know I see the first 5 seals as church age. I think you are missing the fact that God is going to shorten those days of GT by pouring out the vials of His wrath - which will render the armies of the Beast helpless. And God will do this when the days of GT are at their PEAK! 

What I am really saying is, you can take Revelation AS WRITTEN: the 7th trumpet marks the abomination that divides the week, then the man of sin is recognized as the BEAST. Later the false prophet shows up and they later still the image and mark are created and finally enforced - AFTER chapter 14, where God gives the warning. (Note: chapter 11-14 are midpoint chapters - but in order as per passing time) Then finally, the beheaded (from the days of GT) begin to show up in chapter 15. As you can see, many people jump the gun here and try to fit the days of GT in FAR before John does. 

And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (Rev. 7:14)          

As you know by now, I consider this great crowd - too large to number - as the just raptured church. Why? Simply because I am extremely convinced of John's chronology, and He has not yet even started the 70th week - much less arrived at chapter 15 where the beheaded from the days of GT JESUS spoke of will take place. My only way around "great tribulation" in chapter 7 is to believe that in the mind of God, at the time of rapture, it is going to be GT on earth: people dying for their testimony. In other words, just because you see these two words together: "great" and "tribulation" does not automatically point to the days Jesus spoke of: Note that these two words were NOT ENOUGH for Jesus: He had to add more words, that those days would be worse than any before or any ever again.  Also, I find this verse very shortly after where I think Paul's rapture fits: just before the 6th seal. It just makes sense then that John would see the church in heaven right after the rapture. The two things that God HAS TO SEE before the 7th seal starts the 70th week is the 144,000 seals and the church safely in heaven.

So If the sixth seal is after the great tribulation,  it cannot possibly be. 

(What is at fault with the logic here?)   Very simple: you have to rearrange Revelation to fit. I think this is a guarantee that this theory will be proven wrong.  The very FIRST THING God sent me to find was the "exact midpoint clearly marked." The midpoint of the week is the 7th trumpet. It is impossible that the days of GT are BEFORE the midpoint. Jesus said AFTER the abomination, not before. Daniel tells us what divides the week.  I don't see this theory fitting Dan 9:27 or the book of Revelation.  (However, you would fit right in with the prewrathers here.)

Sorry, but you are I are going to continue to disagree on these things that involve chronology. 

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

I don't believe it takes even a couple of days, it is sudden destruction, not gradual.  And Jacob's time of trouble is not 3.5 years from what I can find.  What you see as the first half I see as the second half, and I can show it in scripture that way but I am not going to do that in someone else's thread.

God bless

It was my thread. I think we are all here to learn. Feel free if you wish. I see Jacob's trouble as 7 years. It was the 7 EXTRA years he had to work for the woman he loved that caused the 70th week to be called "Jacob's trouble." 

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

Again, that is your imaginary rabbit hole, you are going down it alone.  John attaches chapter 11 to the second woe, your entire premise is to eliminate verse 14 and rewrite scripture how you want it to appear.  If John wanted to separate them, he would have written this at the conclusion of the 6th trumpet in chapter 9 like he did with the 5th trumpet, he didn't, there is a reason it appears where it does.

God bless

It is certainly not my fault you don't see  or believeJohn used parentheses. I don't elimination verse 14: I understand it and it fits perfectly.  The 2nd woe is finished in 9:20. Perhaps you should camp out on that verse for a while. 

I am not rewriting anything. I leave the rearranging to others. I only recognize that John wrote 11:4 through 11:13 as a parenthesis. 

We are just not going to agree when I take Revelation as extremely chronological, and you move events at your discretion  to fit YOUR theory.  Note carefully, I don't have to move the 7th trumpet out of its place in a midpoint chapter - but you do. 

like he did with the 5th trumpet  I disagree: let's look:

Revelation 8:13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

Revelation 9:12  One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.

¹³ And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,

Revelation 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

¹⁵ And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Now, do you see where you missed it? The second woe comes ONE VERSE after "one woe is past..." 

The third we comes ONE VERSe after "the second woe is past..."

As I have said over and over, John is very chronological and very consistent with His Chronology.  Take note, my theory requires NO rearranging. 

Edited November 9, 2019 by iamlamad