Can we determine the TIMING of the Rapture from Paul?

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, dhchristian said:

I Agree they all coincide, But see this as the first half of the week. I see the second half of the week being Jacob's trouble. Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him: But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them. (Jeremiah 30:7-9)

The Church is no more, what remains is part of the harlot, and this leads into the millennial reign of Christ. The beast has been destroyed (The Kingdom), the spirits of the dragon, the beast and the false prophet go and gather the kings of the earth for the final battle.

So to put this graphically:

First 3.5 years is Great tribulation,                                           Second half is Jacob's trouble.

A of D/ 1260 time of abominations/ gentiles                            Beast out of Bottomless pit, Harlot atop                                                                                                              emerge from wilderness.

1260 days women in the wilderness (Israel/church)                Woman Israel, restored Remainder of church becomes harlot 

1260 days 2 witnesses                                                                 Restoration of Israel begins.

Rapture 2witnesses/ church / resurrection of the dead            Judgment on Harlot/ Babylon

The day of Christ (2 thess 2)                                                       The gatherings of Israel and nations for Armageddon

                                                                                                      The Plagues of wrath

                                                                                                      The Final Battle

 

The final 3.5 years the following is accomplished:

to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. (Daniel 9:24b)  

And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. (Zech 12:10)

The Gog Magog/ Armageddon wars. 

If you do not divide it like this, there are literally only days left for all this to be accomplished assuming a 2550 day week, with the second 1260 beginning at the midpoint. 

I don't think John would even recognize this as from his book!  PLEASE expand on your last sentence. I don't see your argument at all. 

[wingnut-]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

It is certainly not my fault you don't see  or believeJohn used parentheses.

 

You're just not catching on at all.  John didn't use parentheses.  John speaks of the 2nd woe precisely where he was told to for a reason, it is the Revelation of Jesus.  It says what it says, and where it says it.  Here is my point, no illusions.

 

Revelation 9  And the fifth angel blew his trumpet, and I saw a star fallen from heaven to earth, and he was given the key to the shaft of the bottomless pit.

 

Chapter 9 begins with the 5th trumpet which is the first woe, and after we read of what it says John concludes it by saying this.

 

Revelation 9:12 The first woe has passed; behold, two woes are still to come.

 

Then John writes about the 6th trumpet, which is the second woe.

 

Revelation 9:13 Then the sixth angel blew his trumpet, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar before God, 14 saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, “Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.” 15 So the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour, the day, the month, and the year, were released to kill a third of mankind. 16 The number of mounted troops was twice ten thousand times ten thousand; I heard their number. 17 And this is how I saw the horses in my vision and those who rode them: they wore breastplates the color of fire and of sapphire and of sulfur, and the heads of the horses were like lions' heads, and fire and smoke and sulfur came out of their mouths. 18 By these three plagues a third of mankind was killed, by the fire and smoke and sulfur coming out of their mouths. 19 For the power of the horses is in their mouths and in their tails, for their tails are like serpents with heads, and by means of them they wound.

20 The rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands nor give up worshiping demons and idols of gold and silver and bronze and stone and wood, which cannot see or hear or walk, 21 nor did they repent of their murders or their sorceries or their sexual immorality or their thefts.

 

We know the 6th trumpet is the 2nd woe, but John doesn't write it here, why?  Why does it comes 2 chapters later following the passage on the 2 witnesses?  The answer is simple, because we are to understand that the 6th trumpet is connected to the events found where the 2nd woe is stated as taking place.  It is lost on you, but not anyone else.  That is why your imaginary parentheses is rejected, because it is false.

There is absolutely no reason for that information to be found there for any other reason.  If John didn't want verse 14 to go with the 2 witnesses he would have written it in chapter 9, or better yet, written the 2 witnesses later on.  You can't come up with any reason for it to appear where it does, and you don't understand it because you are not open to learn, so instead you create and present a total fiction.  Good luck with that.

 

God bless

[Aimes]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I don't think John would even recognize this as from his book!  PLEASE expand on your last sentence. I don't see your argument at all. 

(Doesn't think John would recognize your parenthesis either) 

just sayin'

[iamlamad]

22 minutes ago, TheAimes said:

(Doesn't think John would recognize your parenthesis either) 

just sayin'

I think he would: he wrote it as a parenthesis!

[Aimes]

11 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

I think he would: he wrote it as a parenthesis!

I've read the section of Scripture in multiple versions of the Bible - no parenthesis. 

So unless you have a direct line to John, I don't think he did. 

[dhchristian]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

The Book of Revelation also agrees with this. It squarely puts the Great tribulation before the Sixth seal,   I would really like for you to spend a complete post on this, laying out your proof line upon line. My opinion is that this theory is myth. John shows us that the beheaded only begin showing up in heaven in chapter 15, FAR LATER in the week. After all, the days of GT are created by the image and the mark being enforced: and it is the False Prophet that instigates these things. Notice carefully that the Beast rises up (is recognized as the Beast) at the MIDPOINT. The false prophet does not show up until some unknown time AFTER that. So what you suggest is simply impossible according to John - the way I read the text. In other words, the image and the mark will not be created or enforced until some unknown time after the midpoint. I would like to see your rebuttal and proof.

You know I see the first 5 seals as church age. I think you are missing the fact that God is going to shorten those days of GT by pouring out the vials of His wrath - which will render the armies of the Beast helpless. And God will do this when the days of GT are at their PEAK! 

What I am really saying is, you can take Revelation AS WRITTEN: the 7th trumpet marks the abomination that divides the week, then the man of sin is recognized as the BEAST. Later the false prophet shows up and they later still the image and mark are created and finally enforced - AFTER chapter 14, where God gives the warning. (Note: chapter 11-14 are midpoint chapters - but in order as per passing time) Then finally, the beheaded (from the days of GT) begin to show up in chapter 15. As you can see, many people jump the gun here and try to fit the days of GT in FAR before John does. 

And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (Rev. 7:14)          

As you know by now, I consider this great crowd - too large to number - as the just raptured church. Why? Simply because I am extremely convinced of John's chronology, and He has not yet even started the 70th week - much less arrived at chapter 15 where the beheaded from the days of GT JESUS spoke of will take place. My only way around "great tribulation" in chapter 7 is to believe that in the mind of God, at the time of rapture, it is going to be GT on earth: people dying for their testimony. In other words, just because you see these two words together: "great" and "tribulation" does not automatically point to the days Jesus spoke of: Note that these two words were NOT ENOUGH for Jesus: He had to add more words, that those days would be worse than any before or any ever again.  Also, I find this verse very shortly after where I think Paul's rapture fits: just before the 6th seal. It just makes sense then that John would see the church in heaven right after the rapture. The two things that God HAS TO SEE before the 7th seal starts the 70th week is the 144,000 seals and the church safely in heaven.

So If the sixth seal is after the great tribulation,  it cannot possibly be. 

When does rev. 7:14 take place in the chronology of revelation? Well, let's see.... right after the sixth seal right? Those saints (the great multitude) came "out of the great tribulation" THEREFORE the Great tribulation is before the sixth seal. Matthew 24:21 equates the great tribulation with the abomination of desolation. For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. THEREFORE The great tribulation and the abomination of desolation comes before the sixth seal. This is simple logic. Triangulation if you will, a navigational term for finding the location of something by comparing it with three known points. 

Your logic is flawed, placing the great tribulation and the abomination of desolation in the second half of the final week, this would make the sixth seal happen at the end of the week. I Am shocked you cannot see this. 

That is What Jesus does in the Olivet discourse is to tie the A of D to the great tribulation. John in the book of Revelation Gives us the location of this in relation to the seals. Now unless you are a preterist, this puts a fallacy in your theory you cannot reconcile, this being what you, and all prophecy students need to learn from the preterists. This was a hard lesson for me to learn, but once I did I could not condone the preterists notion that the rapture has occurred already so I had to figure out the exact timing of these things using this triangulation. Once I did everything else falls into place.

How Triangulation works: 

What is triangulation

Triangulation is a method used to increase the credibility and validity of research findings.1 Credibility refers to trustworthiness and how believable a study is; validity is concerned with the extent to which a study accurately reflects or evaluates the concept or ideas being investigated.2 Triangulation, by combining theories, methods or observers in a research study, can help ensure that fundamental biases arising from the use of a single method or a single observer are overcome. Triangulation is also an effort to help explore and explain complex human behaviour using a variety of methods to offer a more balanced explanation to readers.2 It is a procedure that enables validation of data and can be used in both quantitative and qualitative studies.

Triangulation can enrich research as it offers a variety of datasets to explain differing aspects of a phenomenon of interest. It also helps refute where one dataset invalidates a supposition generated by another. It can assist the confirming of a hypothesis where one set of findings confirms another set. Finally, triangulation can help explain the results of a study.3 Central to triangulation is the notion that methods leading to the same results give more confidence in the research findings.4

https://ebn.bmj.com/content/22/3/67

Read More at link

    

    

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, wingnut- said:

You're just not catching on at all.  John didn't use parentheses.  John speaks of the 2nd woe precisely where he was told to for a reason, it is the Revelation of Jesus.  It says what it says, and where it says it.  Here is my point, no illusions.

 

Revelation 9  And the fifth angel blew his trumpet, and I saw a star fallen from heaven to earth, and he was given the key to the shaft of the bottomless pit.

 

Chapter 9 begins with the 5th trumpet which is the first woe, and after we read of what it says John concludes it by saying this.

 

Revelation 9:12 The first woe has passed; behold, two woes are still to come.

 

Then John writes about the 6th trumpet, which is the second woe.

 

Revelation 9:13 Then the sixth angel blew his trumpet, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar before God, 14 saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, “Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.” 15 So the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour, the day, the month, and the year, were released to kill a third of mankind. 16 The number of mounted troops was twice ten thousand times ten thousand; I heard their number. 17 And this is how I saw the horses in my vision and those who rode them: they wore breastplates the color of fire and of sapphire and of sulfur, and the heads of the horses were like lions' heads, and fire and smoke and sulfur came out of their mouths. 18 By these three plagues a third of mankind was killed, by the fire and smoke and sulfur coming out of their mouths. 19 For the power of the horses is in their mouths and in their tails, for their tails are like serpents with heads, and by means of them they wound.

20 The rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands nor give up worshiping demons and idols of gold and silver and bronze and stone and wood, which cannot see or hear or walk, 21 nor did they repent of their murders or their sorceries or their sexual immorality or their thefts.

 

We know the 6th trumpet is the 2nd woe, but John doesn't write it here, why?  Why does it comes 2 chapters later following the passage on the 2 witnesses?  The answer is simple, because we are to understand that the 6th trumpet is connected to the events found where the 2nd woe is stated as taking place.  It is lost on you, but not anyone else.  That is why your imaginary parentheses is rejected, because it is false.

There is absolutely no reason for that information to be found there for any other reason.  If John didn't want verse 14 to go with the 2 witnesses he would have written it in chapter 9, or better yet, written the 2 witnesses later on.  You can't come up with any reason for it to appear where it does, and you don't understand it because you are not open to learn, so instead you create and present a total fiction.  Good luck with that.

God bless

Let's try this again: I will go slower.   Maybe you will get it this time. Notice how John writes this:

⁷ The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up. We really don't need to be told: the first trumpet judgment is finished: By the time the second angel will sound, the first is history. "burnt up" is Aorist indicative showing action completed in the past. (Please correct me if I am wrong, I am learning Greek.)

⁸ And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

We find the same thing between the third angel and the fourth angel - with the same Greek tenses. It seems that when the next angel sounds, the previous action is then history. John is giving us the briefest of outlines.

Revelation 8:13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!  This is the warning that three woes are coming. They are FUTURE to this verse.

And the fifth angel sounded, [the first woe] and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.  Note the 5th trumpet. The first four trumpets are over and history now.

² And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

³ And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.

⁴ And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

⁵ And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

⁶ And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

⁷ And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.

⁸ And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.

⁹ And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.

¹⁰ And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.

¹¹ And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.  Keep in mind, John is just giving us a bare bones outline. He does not give us instances of people being stung. At the end of this verse this woe has run its course and is finished, as verse 12 tells us. But we would not have needed verse 12: we could tell from verse 13 that the 5th angel woe is over, for it is now time for the 6th. But John is thorough here and tells us it is over.

12  One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.  Notice the very next thing after two more woes coming is the very next event: the second woe.

¹³ And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,

Note that after the warning (two woes more) that the very next verse is the next woe.

¹⁸ By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.  Same Greek Tense: Aorist Indicative: an action started and completed in the past. By the time John finishes writing this verse, this 6th trumpet judgment is over. It is history at the period. 

²⁰ And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:   Notice carefully what John is saying here: He is giving us a summary AFTER THE FACT: that judgment is over, and John is telling us that some men were NOT killed, but did not repent. So there is even TIME to repent, after the fact, but they did not. At this time then, the 6th trumpet judgment is HISTORY and John has summerized it.

10:1 And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire:  John has changed gears, so to speak: this is an intermission from realtime. The 6th trumpet events are history: passed or past: which ever word you like.

¹¹ And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings. Intermission is over and the next verse will be back to real time. 

Think about this: the first half of the week is 42 months. at this time 6 of seven has been started and completed. Where is John now after the 6th trumpet? Probably around 35 months into the first half.

11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.   John has started back into real time. NO MENTION of the 6th trumpet because at this time it is history. 

¹⁴ The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. As he has done before, John warns that the last one is history and the next one is imminent.

¹⁵ And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

So John walks us straight through TIME: as time passes, each trumpet judgment is sounded.  There is every indication that when the next trumpet sounds, the previous is at that time history. In other words, there is NO indication that any trumpet judgment event carries over into the next and the next.

John didn't use parentheses.  Wrong again:

⁴ And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

⁵ But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

So by every rule of language and pronouns, the first resurrection is tied to "the rest of the dead" that won't raise until after the 1000 years.  We back up from the "this" and see what is the first noun we can tie it to: it ends up being the resurrection for the "rest of the dead."

 

IS THIS JOHN'S INTENT? Of course not!

 

Try it the way John meant it:

4...and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

⁽⁵ But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.) This is the first resurrection.

With the parenthesis the "this" refers back to the first resurrection, not the second.

This ONLY makes sense if John used parenthesis.

 

[wingnut-]

1 minute ago, iamlamad said:

Let's try this again:

 

Yes, let's try again and see if you continue to evade answering.

 

We know the 6th trumpet is the 2nd woe, but John doesn't write it here, why?  Why does it comes 2 chapters later following the passage on the 2 witnesses?  The answer is simple, because we are to understand that the 6th trumpet is connected to the events found where the 2nd woe is stated as taking place.  It is lost on you, but not anyone else.  That is why your imaginary parentheses is rejected, because it is false.

There is absolutely no reason for that information to be found there for any other reason.  If John didn't want verse 14 to go with the 2 witnesses he would have written it in chapter 9, or better yet, written the 2 witnesses later on.  You can't come up with any reason for it to appear where it does, and you don't understand it because you are not open to learn, so instead you create and present a total fiction.  Good luck with that.

[wingnut-]

11 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

IS THIS JOHN'S INTENT? Of course not!

 

I understood this as written at 8 years old, no parentheses required, it is self explanatory.  

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, dhchristian said:

When does rev. 7:14 take place in the chronology of revelation? Well, let's see.... right after the sixth seal right? Those saints (the great multitude) came "out of the great tribulation" THEREFORE the Great tribulation is before the sixth seal. Matthew 24:21 equates the great tribulation with the abomination of desolation. For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. THEREFORE The great tribulation and the abomination of desolation comes before the sixth seal. This is simple logic. Triangulation if you will, a navigational term for finding the location of something by comparing it with three known points.

the Great tribulation  That is what is written:  but WHICH "the great tribulation?" there is one Jesus spoke of, there is this one, and there is one in Rev. chapter 2. The one in chapter two is in reference to John's day, so could not possibly be the GT that Jesus spoke of.

Read this over and over: it is a most complicated verse. Notice that in Rev. 7 it is ONLY TWO WORDS with "the" in front of each: "the tribulation the great." IF, and again I say IF (for it would be the only case) John was showing this crowd OUTSIDE of His narrative chronology, which he does nowhere else, I would have to say the rapture must come after the days of GT that Jesus spoke of, that come after the midpoint abomination.  In other words John proves in chapters 13 through 15 that the days of GT Jesus spoke of are there, after the warning in chapter 14 - with the beheaded showing up in heaven in chapter 15.

So did John MESS UP His chronology, and is showing this great crowd OUTSIDE of His chronology? (In chapter 7 he has not yet started the 70th week.) Or is there another alternative? I think there is. I think God is calling the ENTIRE CHURCH AGE as "the tribulation" and "the tribulation the  great." In this case, your argument fails and John keeps with his chronology, the rapture is before the 6th seal, and they show up in heaven at a time before the week begins.  the only help with this argument is that John said in chapter one that he was in "the tribulation" and to the church of Thyatira John mentions "great tribulation." This instance cannot refer to the days Jesus talked about because it was 2000 years previous.

So there IS another way to look at it. I know, it is a weak argument. But it seems, considering the entire rest of the book, to be the intent of the Author. It requires no rearranging. It leaves Revelation exactly as written. It agrees with Paul's timing on the rapture, while your theory does not.  I agree with your theory of triangulation; but I cannot agree on your reading of the text. Jesus' days of GT come after the midpoint abomination. Sorry, but John had not arrived at that point in time in his narrative in chapter 7.  Of course, the other alternative is to make Revelation a draw out of the hat kind of book where to find WHERE and WHEN one just draws out of a hat. In other words, rearrange Revelation to fit some theory.

Sorry, I cannot do that. We will continue to disagree. I will say this: it is your strongest argument yet.

I checked several Greek texts: they all had "the tribulation the great."

Edited November 9, 2019 by iamlamad