Can we determine the TIMING of the Rapture from Paul?

[iamlamad]

40 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

 All of this goes back to you interpreting the rest of the bible in light of how you understand the book of Revelation.   You have to "bend" other scriptures to fit your model of internal understanding of the apocalypse.   John,  not only uses the same word for word phrase as Jesus did when they refer to the stars of heaven falling,  but he even interprets their symbolic usage (to be his a ngels). [Actually it isn't even symbolic,  it's just a matter of perspective;  one view is from heaven and other is from earth]  But you reject both, completely dissociating one from the other to make your imaginary theology work.  You need to get back to the real world and leave your lalaland, lamad.

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

This is true, but my model is John's model. I move nothing. Show me one example of bending. I don't think so. It is every easy to see that Rev. 6 is many chapters from Rev. 19. It is also easy to follow John's chronology, from Satan to the Beast to the FAlse Prophet, then what they will do: the image and the mark. Then after that, the beheaded showing up in heaven - all in chronologically order. 

It is not imaginary to follow John's chronology!  What is imaginary is ignoring any kind of chronology.

[The Light]

6 hours ago, OneLight said:

That is one theory which is possible.  Yet, where scripture is silent, so am I.

Yes, scripture is silent, which speaks for itself. Paul never goes back and writes an explanation of what the last trump is. The reason that he doesn't need to write an explanation about the last trump is because all the Jewish people know exactly what the last trump is and when it is blown.

[OneLight]

1 hour ago, The Light said:

Yes, scripture is silent, which speaks for itself. Paul never goes back and writes an explanation of what the last trump is. The reason that he doesn't need to write an explanation about the last trump is because all the Jewish people know exactly what the last trump is and when it is blown.

Strange that you should want to incline this to be true as Paul was sent to, and writing to, Gentiles, not the Jewish people.  Something else to consider, isn't it.  I am not throwing out the possibility that the last trumpet is meant to be the last trumpet of the Feast of Trumpets, not am I throwing out it also could be the 7th trumpet judgment.  Since scripture is silent, I leave the possibilities open.

[OneLight]

2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

And Jesus spoke to us in parables so that we would hear and understand, but the world wouldn't understand when they heard the exact same words of wisdom. The Rapture was not for Israel, thus it was never a part of the Old Testament, save glimpses here and there, and the Disciples were writing about the Gospels/New Testament/Revelation for about 60 years from 33 AD to 94 ADish. 

The Epistles of Paul were never meant by him to be Canonized as scriptures or he would have been more careful to fill in the details, instead of saying don't you remember when I was with you I told you these things, then speaking about things they spoke of, except not giving full clarity in many cases, or us not having the "Churches" letters unto Paul, so we were getting half of a conversation. The Prophets wrote "Thus saith the Lord" and it was 100 percent of God, Paul was writing to the Churches in Asia Minor, its was meant to persuade them of the Gospel and to teach them how ti live in Christ Jesus and to eventually operate in the Holy Spirit. But if we get only half of what hes speaking about because he spoke in person with them first and then just kinda vaguely references these things in a letter, we are not getting the full gist, so these letters in many cases are not clear enough to us, if we were not there for the speeches Paul gave also. This is why we have people who thing 2 Thess. 2 is a Falling Away from the Faith instead of a Departing of the Church from the earth. 

Revelation is THE ENCODED Word of God, you can't understand it without decoding it. So if you take the book of Revelation at face value you have no hope understanding it at all. His voice will reverberate like a Trump, so says Rev. 4:1 and there are other passages that say this also, have you ever head a voice that is loud enough to be heard worldwide but that only certain people can hear ? Its going to have to reverberate. I have studied in depth this word reverberation via bible scriptures, its not a Trump always, many times where the word trump is used it just means a reverberating sound. Those English Translators did us no favors. 

 Revelation 4:1 After 3326 this 5023 I looked, 1492 z5627 and 2532 beholde, 2400 z5628 a doore 2374 was opened 455 z5772 in 1722 heauen: 3772 and 2532 the x3588 first 4413 voice 5456 which 3739 I heard, 191 z5656 was as it were x5613 of y5613 a trumpet, 4536 talking 2980 z5723 with 3326 me, 1700 which said, 3004 z5723 Come vp 305 z5628 hither, 5602 and 2532 I will shew 1166 z5692 thee 4671 things which 3739 must 1163 z5748 be 1096 z5635 hereafter. 3326 5023

 

#4536 σάλπιγξ salpigx {sal'-pinx}  from G4535 (through the idea of quavering or reverberation); TDNT - 7:71,997; n f

—Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)

1) a trumpet

—Thayer's (New Testament Greek-English Lexicon)

From G4535 (through the idea of quavering or reverberation); a trumpet:—trump (-et).

—Strong's (Greek Dictionary of the New Testament)

Its Jesus voice that Reverberates according to John who actually SAW what happened in a vision. He said Jesus' voice SOUNDED as if it were a TRUMPET, thus his voice REVERBERATED SOUND WAVES !! 

All I can do is put forth the word is we have been given it brother. Jesus' voice calls us up, it is the "Trumpet Signal' to come home. 

Keep in mind that all scripture was inspired by God and He knew what should be written as well as what would be included included in the bible, which means it was not up to Paul to decide what should be written, but God. 

As for Revelation being encoded, those are words spoken by people who claim to have "special knowledge" since they have the understanding on how to"decode" the prophecy, which would make Jesus a liar since He said in Revelation 1:3 - "Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near."  Nothing mentioned here about needed to decode anything.  The Holy Spirit will be my teacher, not some special method created by man in order to decode Revelation.  That is where a lot of false teaching comes from - "people with special knowledge as they have a special key to meant for a deeper understand".

Edited to include the following:

You give a simple description of what the word trumpet means, and if is stood alone, it would mean something much different in this verse, but it does not.  The Greek says in Revelation 4:1 "the sound the first which I hear as of trumpet speaking", translated to "like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me" in NASB. No matter how you put it, this does not mean it was a literal trumpet.  I do agree that reverberation is another way to say the words were brass sounding.

Edited November 15, 2019 by OneLight

[The Light]

4 hours ago, OneLight said:

Strange that you should want to incline this to be true as Paul was sent to, and writing to, Gentiles, not the Jewish people.  Something else to consider, isn't it.  I am not throwing out the possibility that the last trumpet is meant to be the last trumpet of the Feast of Trumpets, not am I throwing out it also could be the 7th trumpet judgment.  Since scripture is silent, I leave the possibilities open.

I think your point about Paul being sent to the Gentiles certainly warrants strong consideration. However, we can rule out the 7th trumpet judgment because that takes place during the wrath of God. We can prove that the Church is raptured pre trib by Rev 5. We can also prove that the 12 tribes that are scattered across the earth are raptured prior to the wrath of God by Rev 6 and Matt 24.

[OneLight]

2 minutes ago, The Light said:

I think your point about Paul being sent to the Gentiles certainly warrants strong consideration. However, we can rule out the 7th trumpet judgment because that takes place during the wrath of God. We can prove that the Church is raptured pre trib by Rev 5. We can also prove that the 12 tribes that are scattered across the earth are raptured prior to the wrath of God by Rev 6 and Matt 24.

Actually, the seals and trumpets are judgments, not the wrath of God.  That begins with the vials, or bowls - depending on what version of the bible you are reading.  Read Revelation 15 to see.

The Rapture, as I pointed out before, is at the last trumpet, which is not before Revelation 5.

[The Light]

1 hour ago, OneLight said:

Quote

Actually, the seals and trumpets are judgments, not the wrath of God. 

Actually, the seals are the tribulation period. The trumpets are the wrath of the lamb who is God. It begins the Day of the Lord.

Quote

That begins with the vials, or bowls - depending on what version of the bible you are reading.  Read Revelation 15 to see.

The wrath of God begins when the Day of the Lord begins.It begins with the 1st Trumpet. The vials or bowls is just a different view of the trumpets. We can prove that by reading Rev 14 which is the tribulation period (same as the seals). We can see the harvest at the end of Rev 14. This is the fall fruit harvest, which occurs on  the Feast of Trumpets, and thus the grapes being cast into the wrath of God.

Quote

The Rapture, as I pointed out before, is at the last trumpet, which is not before Revelation 5.

The rapture of the Church is the pretribualtion rapture. This occurs at the trump of God. We can see the Church in heaven in Rev 5. This is the early summer grain harvest, when the fulness of the Gentiles comes in. It is the harvest that occurs on Pentecost. After the Church is raptured to heaven, the blindness is lifted from the 12 tribes that are scattered across the earth. They also will be raptured in the pre wrath rapture which we can see in Rev 6 and Matt 24. This is also the same event that we see in Rev 14. This occurs at the last trump. One rapture like the days of Noah where Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood. And the second rapture like the days of Lot, where destruction occurs the very day Lot leaves Sodom.

 

Edited November 16, 2019 by The Light

[iamlamad]

5 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

 any understanding that is based on the equivalency of the 1260 days,  42 months and time, times and half a time,  is an understanding that is bent to fit an otherwise indefensible theology.   But your not alone.   It is one of the most widely accepted forms of eschatological abuse. 

If you were to stick to the chronological orderings given to us by Jesus and John you would recognize that when Jesus said that "the sign of the son of man in heaven" appears after the stars fall from heaven: 

   
Mat 24:29-30 KJV    Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And THEN shall appear the "sign of the Son of man in heaven": and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

THAT this agrees with what John writes in Rev 12.

Verse list:    
Rev 12:4-6 KJV    And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Most everyone recognizes that Jesus is the man child born unto "the sign in heaven of a woman in labor".  Going back to our lengths of time,  T,T's, half T is either 43 or 44 months (which is a minimum of 1269 days)  is longer than the 1260 days that the woman flees and is fed in the wilderness, you would recognize,  (in agreement with Jesus)  that the birth and/or the harpazo of the man child,  IS THE SIGN OF THE SON OF MAN IN HEAVEN, that takes place after the stars fall from heaven.   If you were to pay attention to the words,  instead of bending them,  you would see that the woman is protected from the FACE OF THE SERPENT [his fall from heaven] for time, times and a half,  and that the woman actually flees into the wilderness at the 1260 day marker.   

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

 

[OneLight]

 

 

26 minutes ago, The Light said:

Actually, the seals are the tribulation period. The trumpets are the wrath of the lamb who is God. It begins the Day of the Lord.

The wrath of God begins when the Day of the Lord begins.It begins with the 1st Trumpet. The vials or bowls is just a different view of the trumpets. We can prove that by reading Rev 14 which is the tribulation period (same as the seals). We can see the harvest at the end of Rev 14. This is the fall fruit harvest, which occurs on  the Feast of Trumpets, and thus the grapes being cast into the wrath of God.

The rapture of the Church is the pretribualtion rapture. This occurs at the trump of God. We can see the Church in heaven in Rev 5. This is the early summer grain harvest, when the fulness of the Gentiles comes in. It is the harvest that occurs on Pentecost. After the Church is raptured to heaven, the blindness is lifted from the 12 tribes that are scattered across the earth. They also will be raptured in the pre wrath rapture which we can see in Rev 6 and Matt 24. This is also the same event that we see in Rev 14. This occurs at the last trump. One rapture like the days of Noah where Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood. And the second rapture like the days of Lot, where destruction occurs the very day Lot leaves Sodom.

Your post is an exact example of why I try my best to stay out of the forum - so much wrong it would take more time than I have to go through your theology and point to the errors.  I'll leave that to someone else that enjoys such a challenge. 

I do pray you are open to correction.

Shalom - Alan

[iamlamad]

5 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

 any understanding that is based on the equivalency of the 1260 days,  42 months and time, times and half a time,  is an understanding that is bent to fit an otherwise indefensible theology.   But your not alone.   It is one of the most widely accepted forms of eschatological abuse. 

If you were to stick to the chronological orderings given to us by Jesus and John you would recognize that when Jesus said that "the sign of the son of man in heaven" appears after the stars fall from heaven: 

   
Mat 24:29-30 KJV    Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And THEN shall appear the "sign of the Son of man in heaven": and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

THAT this agrees with what John writes in Rev 12.

Verse list:    
Rev 12:4-6 KJV    And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Most everyone recognizes that Jesus is the man child born unto "the sign in heaven of a woman in labor".  Going back to our lengths of time,  T,T's, half T is either 43 or 44 months (which is a minimum of 1269 days)  is longer than the 1260 days that the woman flees and is fed in the wilderness, you would recognize,  (in agreement with Jesus)  that the birth and/or the harpazo of the man child,  IS THE SIGN OF THE SON OF MAN IN HEAVEN, that takes place after the stars fall from heaven.   If you were to pay attention to the words,  instead of bending them,  you would see that the woman is protected from the FACE OF THE SERPENT [his fall from heaven] for time, times and a half,  and that the woman actually flees into the wilderness at the 1260 day marker.   

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

any understanding that is based on the equivalency of the 1260 days,  42 months and time, times and half a time,  is an understanding that is bent to fit an otherwise indefensible theology.   Why would you say such a thing when John mentions the 1260 days twice, and the 42 months twice? All of these is meant for the last half of the week. It is no wonders it is beleived by millions and millions of the church: it is right there in black and white in scripture. Perhaps then, any bending is on the side of those that deny the last 3.5 years of the week.

If you were to stick to the chronological orderings given to us by Jesus and John you would recognize that when Jesus said that "the sign of the son of man in heaven" appears after the stars fall from heaven:   No problem: you imagine stars fall once, but the truth is, this phenomenon will happen twice; once at the start of the DAY as per Rev. 6, and again as per Matthew 24 just before Jesus coming (Rev. 19) You want to warp Revelation so that chapter 19 overlays chapter 6. It simply will not work. Now, just one little tweak in your thinking - that these signs happen twice - and no more warping: your theory would fit everything as written. 

Sorry, but time (1 year 360 days), times (2 years: 360*2=720) and half of time (1/2 year - 180 days) adds up to 1260 days or 42 months. Whether given in days as 1260 days, or months as 42 months, or years as "time" every time John mentioned this period of time, it was for an event to start at the midpoint of the week and go to the end of the week.  By the way, she flees (gone from home) 1260 days, and is fed and protected for 3 1/2 years. It is the very same period of time, but given two different ways.

Here is where we part ways: verses 1/5 in Rev. 12 is written as a parenthesis and is about Christ's BIRTH and how satan used King Herod to try and kill Jesus as a child. These 5 verses have no bearing at all on anything midpoint. The Chapter is midpoint, but those five verses were a history lesson for John. 

"his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth"  Sorry, but this is talking about Satan's FIRST fall from heaven. He persuaded 1/3 of the angels to follow him - perhaps before earth was created - or before Adam was created. Again, this phrase has NOTHING to do with anything midpoint in the week.

This future war in heaven will BEGIN at the 7th trumpet that marks the midpoint of the week. The 7th trumpet will be Michael's signal to start the war. It is not going to be 1/3 of the angels: EVERY spirit in high places - in the heavenly realms - including the devil, is going to be cast down. I guess you could say they will lose their wings. To move they will have to walk!

the woman actually flees into the wilderness at the 1260 day marker.     WOW! This part you got right! Good Job! She flees at the abomination and it will be the abomination that will divide the week.