Can we determine the TIMING of the Rapture from Paul?

[iamlamad]

14 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

Totally illogical, of course.  So let's examine your suggestion, that this book that required 7 seals to be opened contains the trumpets and vials?  What exactly is in this book according to you?

First off, ask yourself why something that already appears in every copy of scripture is sealed in heaven?  We have the trumpet and vial information in our hands, and in my bible they each require 1 page.  So what you have here, is a 2 page book?  And this information that is available on earth to anyone with a bible is sealed in heaven for what reason exactly?

Ok, so here is a question that I really need to know your answer to, and I'll give you mine.  What do you think the purpose of this entire thing is, meaning the entire creation up to the end?  What is God's purpose in all of this?

My answer is, God wanted to call out a holy people to inhabit His creation.  It started that way, then man messed it up with the influence of satan, and now it requires restoration to get back to the original design.

Hence my belief, that you find so far out in left field.  In order to restore things back to the original design, God has to get rid of every hint of sin and wickedness.  Ultimately this culminates in the punishment of satan and the fallen angels, and the separating of the sheep and the goats.  The righteous from the wicked.  God provided a way for all to become righteous, in Christ, and He is the only way for any of us to become holy and enter this promised land.  For all those born again prior to the rapture, this has already been achieved, but for everyone else they must stand and be judged.

When this occurs, there are books opened, and one of those books just happens to be called, the Lamb's book of life.  Not anyone's book, but the Lamb's book.  Why?   Maybe because He was the only worthy of it?  Maybe because He is the way, the truth, and the life, and no one comes to the Father but by Him?  What book could be more important than this book?

God bless

By the way, thanks for your blessings!

 Dan 12:9  And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

 Dan 12:4  But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end:

many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Revelation 5:1  And I saw lying on the open hand of Him Who was seated on the throne a scroll (book)

written within and on the back, closed and sealed with seven seals;

Remember the old saying, "it if looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, IT IS A DUCK! Here, the only thing common is "book" and "seal."

One book has 7 seals. The other book seems to have only one - and no need for 7.

In short, these are different books used for different purposes.

There IS the "Lamb's book of life." We are agreed that it is JESUS' own book. It has the names of everyone born again. 

But it is not the ONLY books  we read of at the white throne judgment. Their are others books mentioned.

However, Daniel's book is NOT mentioned - neither is John's book with seven seals.

[iamlamad]

15 hours ago, wingnut- said:

It is hard to believe you can say that when you are trying to rearrange parts yourself, but what you do recognize is that there are multiple things going on at the same time.  Now you just have to reconcile what John wrote to what events are going on simultaneously, but that statement in itself shows recognition that it is not chronological.

It ends right where John tells us it ends, following the death of the 2 witnesses at the end of the week.  But let's take a look at that event, just from the trumpet viewpoint and see what information is found there.

Revelation 9:13 Then the sixth angel blew his trumpet, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar before God, 14 saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, “Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.” 15 So the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour, the day, the month, and the year, were released to kill a third of mankind. 16 The number of mounted troops was twice ten thousand times ten thousand; I heard their number. 17 And this is how I saw the horses in my vision and those who rode them: they wore breastplates the color of fire and of sapphire and of sulfur, and the heads of the horses were like lions' heads, and fire and smoke and sulfur came out of their mouths. 18 By these three plagues a third of mankind was killed, by the fire and smoke and sulfur coming out of their mouths. 19 For the power of the horses is in their mouths and in their tails, for their tails are like serpents with heads, and by means of them they wound.

Ok, so we start off with 4 angels, who have been bound, and need to be released for this specific task.  They are bound at the Euphrates River, which is to the northeast of Jerusalem.  The river itself was the actual border of the Assyrian empire in their day.  Now these angels were released to kill a third of mankind, but suddenly in verse 16 we see this 200 million army of horses, and the passage goes on to tell us that they do the actual killing, not the 4 angels.  So what did these 4 angels do?  And where do you think this 200 million army is?

Sorry, my friend, but finding parenthesis that John used (but did not show us with actual punctuation marks) is not in any way rearranging. Rearranging would be like saying the 6th seal, the 7th trumpet and the 7th vial all occur at the same time. Or saying something like: the 7th trumpet will sound at the 6th seal. This is rearranging.

As I have said, after chapter 13:6 there are 5 parallel countdowns to the end - all running concurrently. However, even at that John used chronology, for the starting points for these countdowns are staggered, so John could mention them one by one.  How about before chapter 11? I still say the early chapters are chronological.

It ends right where John tells us it ends, following the death of the 2 witnesses at the end of the week.  With this sentence I can see we will never agree until we get to heaven.

"is past.." Have you thought about what exactly these words tell us? It seems you want to add: the second woe is JUST past.  Or "just now past." Sorry, but that kind of information cannot be found in the Greek words - or English either, for that matter. It is a Greek Aorist Indicative tense which shows it began and ended sometime in the past. NO ONE CAN TELL when in the past!

English translates have "Is past," "has passed," "passed away," "is finished," "Is over," "Is gone."

In verse 14 we have only a statement of FACT: some time in the past, the 2nd woe ended.  Can we get any closer?

^{Rev. 9:18} A third of mankind was killed by these three plagues—by the fire and the smoke and the sulphur (brimstone) that poured from the mouths of the horses.

¹⁹ For the power of the horses to do harm is in their mouths and also in their tails. Their tails are like serpents, for they have heads, and it is by means of them that they wound people.

²⁰ And the rest of humanity who were not killed by these plagues even then did not repent of [the worship of] the works of their [own] hands, so as to cease paying homage to the demons and idols of gold and silver and bronze and stone and wood, which can neither see nor hear nor move.

Notice that to the writer, by the time he arrives at verse 20, this plague of the killing of 1/3 of humanity is over and done with at this time, and the people left are still not repenting.

In summary then, by the time John gets to chapter 11, verse 14, OF COURSE the 2nd woe is finished: it was finished in chapter 9:19. If it was finished way back then, it was most certainly finished in chapter 11.

the death of the 2 witnesses at the end of the week.  It it amazing you can move the death of the two witnesses from chapter 11 to the end of the week: chapter 16, but you can't seem to find a parenthesis so they can stay in chapter 11 where John wrote it.

[wingnut-]

12 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Verse 1-2 is where the man of sin SHOWS UP in JERUSALEM - so the two witnesses are sent then because he showed up then.  So John put them exactly in the right place.

 

Of course he did, he also ended it in the right place as well, connected to the 2nd woe, 6th trumpet, which is why verse 14 exists as much as you might want to change that.  Clearly you don't understand it, so you want to remove it and are trying desperately to do so, unsuccessfully.

 

12 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Most people imagine they are killed before the 7th trumpet, but if so, they only testified for 3 a 1/2 days!

 

Not for anyone who understands the 7th trumpet comes at the end, and is in fact the end marker for the week.  So now it is time for you to get a lesson in Greek, a language you clearly know nothing about, but think yourself qualified to explain to someone who does, which is rather amusing by the way.

The Greek word for kingdom used at the 7th trumpet means "the realm in which a sovereign king will rule".  The word is basileia, that is what it means, and that is what will take place, and believe me, that sovereign king is not the beast.  Somewhere along the line you have misinterpreted Jesus' entire earthly ministry, because He preached the kingdom!  Not understanding this has led you into error.

 

12 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I guess it is a moot point with you for my guess is, you have no midpoint.

 

You really don't listen do you?  I don't know how much clearer this can be said by me, but I will try to spell it out for you one more time.

 

Daniel 9:27 And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”

 

The abomination of desolation is the midpoint, how many times does this have to be pointed out to you?  You should really stop guessing and start listening.

[dhchristian]

9 hours ago, wingnut- said:

The abomination of desolation is the midpoint, how many times does this have to be pointed out to you?  You should really stop guessing and start listening.

Hi Wingnut, 

I am going to chip in here by asking why does Jesus then put the abomination of desolation at the Beginning of the end in Matthew 24:14-15?

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) (Matt. 24:14-15) 

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. (2 Thess. 2:3-4)

To me, the A of D marks the beginning of the week. and runs on until the middle of the week. Much Like Antiochus Epiphanes, there is an action at the beginning of the week when The man of sin declares himself to be God, (2 Thess. 2) and a time of abominations where he rules oppressively as did Antiochus Epiphanes. In The case of Antiochus this time lasted 2300 days exactly as the prophecy of Daniel 8 foretold, But in the case of the Antichrist this will last 1260 days or 42 months.  This being the 1260 days of the trampling by the gentiles, and the 1260 days of the 2 witnesses, and the 1260 days of the women in the wilderness. 
In Other words, the middle of the week is marked by the end of the time of abominations, not the event itself. (I am glad you quoted the ESV for Daniel 9:27 for this allows for that as opposed to the KJV which points to the "midst of the week".)

 

[iamlamad]

11 hours ago, wingnut- said:

Of course he did, he also ended it in the right place as well, connected to the 2nd woe, 6th trumpet, which is why verse 14 exists as much as you might want to change that.  Clearly you don't understand it, so you want to remove it and are trying desperately to do so, unsuccessfully.

Not for anyone who understands the 7th trumpet comes at the end, and is in fact the end marker for the week.  So now it is time for you to get a lesson in Greek, a language you clearly know nothing about, but think yourself qualified to explain to someone who does, which is rather amusing by the way.

The Greek word for kingdom used at the 7th trumpet means "the realm in which a sovereign king will rule".  The word is basileia, that is what it means, and that is what will take place, and believe me, that sovereign king is not the beast.  Somewhere along the line you have misinterpreted Jesus' entire earthly ministry, because He preached the kingdom!  Not understanding this has led you into error.

You really don't listen do you?  I don't know how much clearer this can be said by me, but I will try to spell it out for you one more time.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”

The abomination of desolation is the midpoint, how many times does this have to be pointed out to you?  You should really stop guessing and start listening.

I will say this: you have a very good imagination. Sorry, the second woe FINISHED before chapter 9. But then, for someone that sees no chronology, what would that mean?  In other words, there is NO connection with the Two Witnesses and the 2nd woe/6th trumpet.

Perhaps it is you who don't understand: if something was finished yesterday, it is certainly still finished at breakfast today! Perhaps you should pay more attention to the Greek in verse 14.

Anyone  can imagine the 7th trumpet is at the end until they arrive in heaven and find out it was only imagination. However, if they would trust that the Holy Spirit knew in advance when future events would happen, and just believe what is written as it is written, they could know right now that the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint of the week.

I wonder what you think about verse 12:6? Is it also out of place? After all, the fleeing will begin only seconds after the abomination that will divide the week. Therefore, verse 12:6 MUST BE only seconds after the midpoint. This is one good reason why I insist that the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint. It seems the Holy Spirit guided John's writing with perfect chronology.

Actually, one really does not need to know Greek about the kingdoms. We know Satan is the god of this world; the spiritual leader of planet earth. Jesus called him a prince. He once offered all the kingdoms of the world to Jesus, and it was legitimate, for he usurped this great authority from Adam. Why not just believe John? At the midpoint of the 70th week, the kingdoms of this world will be taken from Satan and given to Jesus Christ, and He, Jesus, will begin to reign RIGHT THEN.  But it will be another 3.5 years plus before the millennial reign will begin. 

The abomination of desolation is the midpoint  Of course it is! You and I agree on this point. However, you still have to discover that the 7th trumpet MARKS that point in time. It will be sounded at the midpoint, not at the end.

01-02-03-04-05-06-07-08-09-10-11-12-13-14-15-16-17-18-19-20-21-22

Did you notice? Chapter 11 is right in the middle, being half of 22.  And the midpoint of the 70th week is right there in chapter 11.

The 70th week is marked by 7's: it will begin at the 7th seal, and it will end at the 7th vial, and the midpoint will be marked by the 7th trumpet. I have a novel idea? Why not just form a theory from Revelation AS WRITTEN? There is no need to rearrange.

If we look at Dan. 9:27, some event will stop the daily sacrifices and divide the week into two equal halves. We know from Paul that will be when the man of sin will enter the new Jewish temple and declare he is god. An angel sounding the 7th trumpet is going to mark that time in heaven when the man of sin enters the temple on earth.  Then a couple of seconds later, those in Judea will begin to flee.

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, dhchristian said:

Hi Wingnut, 

I am going to chip in here by asking why does Jesus then put the abomination of desolation at the Beginning of the end in Matthew 24:14-15?

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) (Matt. 24:14-15) 

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. (2 Thess. 2:3-4)

To me, the A of D marks the beginning of the week. and runs on until the middle of the week. Much Like Antiochus Epiphanes, there is an action at the beginning of the week when The man of sin declares himself to be God, (2 Thess. 2) and a time of abominations where he rules oppressively as did Antiochus Epiphanes. In The case of Antiochus this time lasted 2300 days exactly as the prophecy of Daniel 8 foretold, But in the case of the Antichrist this will last 1260 days or 42 months.  This being the 1260 days of the trampling by the gentiles, and the 1260 days of the 2 witnesses, and the 1260 days of the women in the wilderness. 
In Other words, the middle of the week is marked by the end of the time of abominations, not the event itself. (I am glad you quoted the ESV for Daniel 9:27 for this allows for that as opposed to the KJV which points to the "midst of the week".)

You know I am going to disagree. You all amaze me! I cannot see why it is so difficult for people to just believe Revelation AS WRITTEN!

Jesus did not put the abomination at the beginning. What He did was just skip over the first half of the week. I can only guess why, because it is not written. It is my guess that the confirming of the covenant that starts the week will be done in secret. No one will really know when the week begins. NO ONE will miss the rapture of the church, but that is not the start of the week. The week will begin some unknown time later - perhaps 10 days. But soon after, I think people will recognize when the trumpet judgments begin.

[dhchristian]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Jesus did not put the abomination at the beginning. What He did was just skip over the first half of the week. I can only guess why, because it is not written.

Jesus clearly did put the abomination at the beginning of the end as per Matthew 24:14-15 "...and then shall the end come...". Paul, who I am sure was familiar with this prophecy of Jesus, confirms this with what he has been shown in 2 Thess. 2:3-4 (Quoted above) except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Although Paul did not have any written gospels to work with he did have the testimony of the disciples as to the Words of Jesus, and this prophecy would have likely been handed down verbally if not recorded by a scribe and follower of Jesus. (Some theological theories suggest this as the source document for the synoptic gospels.)

The Book of Revelation also agrees with this. It squarely puts the Great tribulation before the Sixth seal, which Jesus Puts after the abomination in the Olivet Discourse. And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (Rev. 7:14)

So If the sixth seal is after the great tribulation, and the time of abominations is the great tribulation as per Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Then This means the A of D and the time of abominations is the first half of the week. (What is at fault with the logic here?) 

I Mean this to me is so "Obvious" that I do not see how you cannot see this? The Only verse in scripture that can even draw question to this IMO is Daniel 9:27, and that is based on translation of the word "half of the week" vs "midst of the week", as I have gone over before, Both translations are right grammatically, Only One is confirmed By Jesus' teachings, and that is to call the abominations both an event, and a time of abominations that lasts 1260 days, as eluded to in the verse itself By the plural abominations.... and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

This is Known as scripture interpreting scripture, When all the various passages align, Then we are on the right track. Remember, scripture was inspired of the Holy Ghost, and they must agree, when this sort of alignment comes into focus, you need to start asking yourself, "maybe I got this wrong?" Instead of only guessing why.

Again, the onus is on you to debunk my logic, not to guess, this is how we arrive at Truth.  

 

 

 

[dhchristian]

Just now, dhchristian said:

Although Paul did not have any written gospels to work with he did have the testimony of the disciples as to the Words of Jesus, and this prophecy would have likely been handed down verbally if not recorded by a scribe and follower of Jesus.

Just a verse regarding this, The cloke that I left at Troas with Carpus, when thou comest, bring with thee, and the books, but especially the parchments. (2 Tim. 4:13)

Now we are not told what the books or the parchments are definitively, but we may surmise they were very important to Paul.

[wingnut-]

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I will say this: you have a very good imagination. Sorry, the second woe FINISHED before chapter 9. But then, for someone that sees no chronology, what would that mean?  In other words, there is NO connection with the Two Witnesses and the 2nd woe/6th trumpet.

 

And yet John attached the second woe to the two witnesses in chapter 11 rather than say it in chapter 9, like he did with the first woe.  You can't explain it, but you will certainly never convince anyone else not to see it, that much is clear.

 

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Why not just believe John?

 

This is what you need to be asking yourself.  I will never agree with you because I know you are wrong, so we'll leave it at that.

 

John 18:36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.”

 

God bless

[wingnut-]

5 hours ago, dhchristian said:

I am going to chip in here by asking why does Jesus then put the abomination of desolation at the Beginning of the end in Matthew 24:14-15?

 

It doesn't read that way to me, it would appear we see things in different segments.  What I see is this in Matthew 24.

 

Matthew 24:15 “So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house, 18 and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak. 19 And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! 20 Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be.

 

The great tribulation is a 3 1/2 year period which begins with the AoD, coincides with all of the 3 1/2 year time periods we find in Revelation, and runs to the very end of the week.  That's how it reads to me.

 

God bless