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Can we determine the TIMING of the Rapture from Paul?

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13 hours ago, OldCoot said:

Nope.  Just adding some more scriptural support of what Yeshua was commenting on in Matthew 23.    Kinda following the prescription in the Torah that a matter cannot be established without the testimony of at least 2 witnesses.  The Bereans in Acts 17 showed how that works in that they searched the scriptures daily (the OT or Tanakh) to see if what Paul was teaching was true.   Most of what Paul taught became a large portion of the NT.  So the two witnesses are the NT and OT.  You provided the Matthew 23 section.  I just provided the Hosea section supporting it.  Thereby adhering to the standard.

Shabbat Shalom!



Shalom, Cliff, vayowm rishown sameach!

Todah! Thanks!

Edited by Retrobyter
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22 hours ago, OldCoot said:

2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord,
And the day of vengeance of our God;

Yeshua stopped before the highlighted passage.  All is fulfilled at the time He read it as He proclaimed.  But He purposefully left off the part "And the day of vengeance of our God".  It is the final tribulation period when The Lord will deliver His vengeance upon the earth.  

For the sake of truth, let everyone know that Jesus has stopped reading where he should stop. Why? Because it was not He who would ANNOUNCE / PEACH the day of vengeance of our God; but Michael the archangel.

If JESUS had written "to proclaim the day of vengeance of our God" it would not be true. 

By the way, the Lord's Day is the seventh and last Day or seventh and last millennium, the Millennium of Christ, and Millennium of Truth, and the Millennium of the Judgment Seat of Christ, and the Millennium of Vengeance.  

In accord the Holy Scriptures, we can number our days, beginning in Genesis chap.5, so we have a table of biblical times, as follow:
Adam lived …..............................................130 yrs and begat Seth
Seth lived ...................................................105 yrs and begat Enosh; 
Enosh lived .................................................90 yrs and begat Kenan; 
Kenan lived..................................................70 yrs and begat Mahalalel; 
Mahalalel lived ...........................................65 yrs and begat Jared; 
Jared lived ..................................................162 yrs and begat Enoch; 
Enoch lived .................................................65 yrs and begat Methuselah; 
Methuselah lived.......................................187 yrs and begat Lamech; 
Lamech lived .............................................182 yrs and begat Noah; 
From Noah´s birth until the Flood..........600 yrs.
Total of yrs from Adam to the Flood = 1,656 yrs.

I - From Adam until the Flood-------------------------. 1,656 years (as was showed above)
II - From the Flood until Abraham------------------------ 427 years
III - From Abraham until Exodus--------------------------430 years
IV - From Exodus until king Saul --------------------------396 years
V - From Saul until the fall of Jerusalem ---------------------508 years
VI - From the fall of Jerusalem until Jesus --------------------587 years
Thus, from Adam until the 1st coming of Jesus--------------- 4,004 years
From Jesus until our days (Christian Calendar) --------------- 2,019 years
Total from Adam until our days --------------------------- 6,023 years

Six complete days or six millenniums,  We are in the first century of the seventh and last millennium or seventh and last Day - the Lord's Day

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8 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shabbat shalom, OldCoot and iamlamad.

Gentlemen, my question was "Where else in the Scriptures is there ANY REASON AT ALL for God to split off any portion of the 70 Sevens and put a gap of almost TWO THOUSAND YEARS in between?"

I'm not contesting that there WAS/IS a "gap"; I'm questioning WHY there was a need at all for the gap! Where in the Scriptures does God give a reason for why He put the gap in these 490 years? WHY are they not consecutive years?

I believe the need was two-fold:

First, it was because of the "overspreading of abominations" among the children of Israel, particularly the children of Yhudah (Jews), during the First Coming of the Messiah Yeshua`,


Second, it was to give ample time to bring in the "other sheep" - the Gentile believers that God would raise among all peoples while the children of Israel were temporarily "shelved."

See, believers ("Christians") generally don't understand Daniel 9:27, especially the second half of the verse.

Daniel 9:27 (KJV)

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

I agree with you here: there was (and still is) a GREAT price to pay for rejecting their long awaited Messiah at His first coming. Now many of the Jews and Hebrews living around the world imagine God rejected them so they will reject him - or they have become total atheists. And there will be a great price to pay for that. Finally, many of those living in Israel put their trust in their IDF rather than in God, and they will pay a price for that too. There will ALWAYS be a penalty for rejecting God and His Redeemer.

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On 12/7/2019 at 10:08 AM, iamlamad said:

AFter means "greater:"

I am going to take Strong's idea over yours:

The KJV translates Strong's H310 in the following manner: after (454x), follow (78x), afterward(s) (46x), behind (44x),

The VAST majority of translators use the English word "after." I saw a couple that said "at the end of."  It should be clear to most readers that Daniel is giving us the idea that TIME PASSED and 69 of the 70 weeks are gone, in history. So then, AFTER those 69 have passed away, Jesus is put to death. But it is NOT IN the 70th for Daniel does not get to the 70th until events pass. It is clear that the Holy Spirit was inserting a gap.  That gap is the 2000 or so years of the Gentile church. It is like a parenthesis inserted into the Hebrew timeline. 

Shalom, iamlamad.

OOPS! I said, "AFTER" means "greater THAN!" Think of it this way: "AFTER New Year's Eve, the year will be 2020." Currently, the year is 2019, but the New Year will be "AFTER" or "GREATER THAN" the current year! That works for any numbering system that counts upward, as do the year numbers we use for time.

In Daniel 9:27, we're not told of ANY "magical gap" inserted between the 69th and 70th Sevens; HOWEVER, we ARE told that, in the middle of the 70th Seven, the last Seven, the Jews are made "DESOLATE" for their abominations that spread out like a wing! We're also told that, in that middle, they shall have those things determined upon them until the full end occurs, and so far, that's been almost 2,000 years.


HOWEVER, we're not told of such an insertion!  It comes from just reading the text with no preconceptions, then comparing with other end times scriptures. I know the entire 70th week is in Revelation: chapter 8 to chapter 16. That is proof enough for me.

69" Sevens, puts one IN the 70th Seven!  If God had not chosen to turn to the Gentiles and make the Jews jealous, you would be right. But God DID turn to the gentiles and inserted Gentile time into the Jewish timeline, as if a parenthesis.

I agree with the purpose of the gap being in part to insert Gentiles into the Kingdom WITH the children of Israel; HOWEVER, why do you INSIST that this "gap" has to be between the 69th and 70th Sevens?! It's between the first and second halves of the 70th Seven!


That's an ASSUMPTION   It's no assumption. 

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:...

The events in this color are between the 69th week and the 70th.

Nope. This is JEWISH thinking, not WESTERN thinking! All the text in goldenrod is indeed "AFTER the 62 Sevens (or AFTER the first 69 Sevens)," but that does NOT mean that they come "BEFORE the 70th Seven!" THAT'S the part that is the ASSUMPTION!!! How weird is that?! It's not in the Jewish nature to think that this means that a gap would be inserted between these Sevens!

If someone said,

"Someone will win the Superbowl AFTER the game, and the people will be shouting for joy and carrying on like 2-year-olds into the night. And, the game will be played for four quarters and at halftime, our team will make a dramatic come-back and win the game." 

would you expect "the people shouting for joy and carrying on like 2-year-olds" to happen BEFORE the game began?!

There's a foreshadowing of future events that occurs in verse 26, but time marches on, and one would NEVER expect that there would be a DELAY in the counting! ... UNTIL, that is, the delay (the desolation) is actually mentioned.


This could have been written in many ways, But God chose this way. This is confirmed when we find the complete 7oth week in Revelation. We also find the event that will divide that entire week. 

It is without question that Daniel wrote this AFTER the angel had told Him.  But the fact is, it was GOD BREATHED through the angel to Daniel. I am convinced this is written exactly as God wanted it written. 

What you are missing: John shows us the entire 70th week in Revelation as a FUTURE EVENT proving God did insert a gap here. However, it does not fit your preconceived theory so you try to argue against it.  If I were you I would camp out in Revelation until you understand it: it is the most complete work on end times in the bible. It is wisdom that we form our doctrines there, and just fill in missing pieces from other books, such as Daniel. 

This is like a bank president that teaches his tellers everything there is to know about the real money - so when they see a counterfeit, it is instantly recognized.  I know the entire 70th week and the point of division of that week as a future event is written in Revelation. It is therefore easy to spot a theory that disagrees with John. 

Only in your mind, friend, only in your mind. Relative visions and revelations are no substitute to ABSOLUTE truth in Scripture.

That certain facts SEEM "out of order" for Western thinkers does NOT mean that is how a child of Israel would interpret Daniel 9:26-27.

What Yochanan shows us in the Revealing of Yeshua` the Messiah of God (the book of Revelation) is the END of the Tribulational Period, also known as the "Time of Jacob's Trouble" (which some call the "Church Age"), and the SECOND HALF of the Seven multiple times from various angles. Yeshua` doesn't arrive from some "Heaven" in Revelation 19. He is given the Kingdom of God in Revelation 11, which means, by then, He is ALREADY BACK! Revelation 19 shows Him coming from the SKY to that final battle for His Land!

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