RogerDC Posted January 16, 2020 Group: Catholic Followers: 1 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 89 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 11 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/08/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted January 16, 2020 On 10/26/2019 at 3:38 AM, douge said: Romans 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Doctrine is delivered to the church and is to be obeyed. Which doctrine is that exactly? There are thousands of different churches, mainly due to the fact that there are thousands of different doctrines. Which church teaches the correct doctrine? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogerDC Posted January 16, 2020 Group: Catholic Followers: 1 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 89 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 11 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/08/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted January 16, 2020 (edited) On 10/26/2019 at 4:14 AM, OneLight said: Even Paul himself tells Timothy in 2 Timothy 3:16-17 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. For starters, that verse is referring to the OT. Furthermore, that verse doesn't say Scripture provides ALL doctrine. The canon of the NT was decided on until the fourth century and before that the early Church relied on the teachings and practices passed on from the apostles as doctrine. Only during the Reformation 1500 years later was the man-made tradition of Sola Scriptura invented. Edited January 16, 2020 by RogerDC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted January 16, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.23 Reputation: 9,762 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted January 16, 2020 6 hours ago, RogerDC said: For starters, that verse is referring to the OT. Furthermore, that verse doesn't say Scripture provides ALL doctrine. The canon of the NT was decided on until the fourth century and before that the early Church relied on the teachings and practices passed on from the apostles as doctrine. Only during the Reformation 1500 years later was the man-made tradition of Sola Scriptura invented. Do you really believe that God had to wait for man to decide before a writing became scripture? I believe the Holy Spirit can move scripture when He wills without having to wait centuries before man decides for themselves what is scripture or not. As for Sola Scriptura is concerned, it may of taken the RC 1500 years after Christ to come up with the word, but the idea was around since the first scripture was written. All one needs to do is look into Acts and read about the Barean people to see that they even took what was being said to them and searched the scripture to see if it were true or not. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Adams Posted January 16, 2020 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 25 Topic Count: 61 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 9,605 Content Per Day: 3.97 Reputation: 7,795 Days Won: 21 Joined: 09/11/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted January 16, 2020 No one seems to get the Qumran connections. The Church fathers and apostles all read Enoch and other 'non-canonical' writings of the inter-testament period. Their world view is obscured due to our later teachings and the scriptures have been mostly strip-mined of anything supernatural. The early church was well aware of the Divine Council, the 70 nation dispersion at Babel and the horrific sins of the Watchers (Gen 6). We have today a watered down set of 'informed decisions' that we take (deliberately or unconsciously) so we are far more ill-informed that the early church ever was. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
douge Posted January 18, 2020 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 354 Topics Per Day: 0.17 Content Count: 964 Content Per Day: 0.46 Reputation: 181 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/14/2018 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 18, 2020 On 1/16/2020 at 12:00 AM, RogerDC said: Which doctrine is that exactly? There are thousands of different churches, mainly due to the fact that there are thousands of different doctrines. Which church teaches the correct doctrine? The teachings of Paul in his epistles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alive Posted January 18, 2020 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 22 Topic Count: 194 Topics Per Day: 0.11 Content Count: 11,053 Content Per Day: 6.55 Reputation: 9,015 Days Won: 36 Joined: 09/12/2019 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/09/1956 Share Posted January 18, 2020 On 1/16/2020 at 6:34 AM, Justin Adams said: No one seems to get the Qumran connections. The Church fathers and apostles all read Enoch and other 'non-canonical' writings of the inter-testament period. Their world view is obscured due to our later teachings and the scriptures have been mostly strip-mined of anything supernatural. The early church was well aware of the Divine Council, the 70 nation dispersion at Babel and the horrific sins of the Watchers (Gen 6). We have today a watered down set of 'informed decisions' that we take (deliberately or unconsciously) so we are far more ill-informed that the early church ever was. I have seen you mention these things a great many times. Who are these 'watchers' you mention? And where and how did you develop these ideas? I have read Genesis many times and looked at 6 just now. I am sure you are aware that Jesus taught us that angels don't have children. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Adams Posted January 18, 2020 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 25 Topic Count: 61 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 9,605 Content Per Day: 3.97 Reputation: 7,795 Days Won: 21 Joined: 09/11/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted January 18, 2020 (edited) 31 minutes ago, Alive said: I have seen you mention these things a great many times. Who are these 'watchers' you mention? And where and how did you develop these ideas? I have read Genesis many times and looked at 6 just now. I am sure you are aware that Jesus taught us that angels don't have children. Yeshua said the angels in heaven do not marry etc. He never mentioned the sins of the watchers but Peter and Jude do and so does Paul allude to them. Read Enoch and second temple literature and the various books about the sins of the watchers. The church fathers also mention Enoch many times and some thought it should be canon like in the eastern church. At the time of Yeshua, all read Enoch and the various other books that were available to them then. Gen 6 is expounded on considerably by Enoch and other Qumran writings. The nephilim mentioned in Gen 6, when dead, give rise to the wandering spirits we call demons. These unclean spirits were Yeshua's first line of attack in the gospel narratives when He began His ministry. He also sent out the 70 disciples signifying He came to all the nations. They knew all about demons and from whence they came. Check out the Joshua wars as well. Yeshua came to right three major wrongs. A) Adam's loss of immortality. B) the incursion at Mt Hermon of the watchers. [that is why His transfiguration was there] c) The scattering at Babel under the auspices of 70 of God's disobedient beings. [Psalm 82 and Deut 32] These nations would be gathered later beginning at Pentecost. God told Abram that He would bless all nations thru him... and his offsprings. Edited January 18, 2020 by Justin Adams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alive Posted January 18, 2020 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 22 Topic Count: 194 Topics Per Day: 0.11 Content Count: 11,053 Content Per Day: 6.55 Reputation: 9,015 Days Won: 36 Joined: 09/12/2019 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/09/1956 Share Posted January 18, 2020 2 minutes ago, Justin Adams said: Yeshu said the angels in heaven do not marry etc. He never mentioned the sins of the watchers but Peter and Jude do and so does Paul allude to them. Read Enoch and second temple literature and the various books about the sins of the watchers. The church fathers also mention Enoch many times and some thought it should be canon like in the eastern church. At the time of Yeshua, all read Enoch and the various other books that were available to them then. Gen 6 is expounded on considerably by Enoch and other Qumran writings. The nephilim mentioned in Gen 6, when dead, give rise to the wandering spirits we call demons. These unclean spirits were Yeshua's first line of attack in the gospel narratives when H began His ministry. He also sent out the 70 disciples signifying He came to all the nations. Yeshua came to right three major wrongs. A) Adam's loss of immortality. B) the incursion at Mt Hermon of the watchers. [that is why His transfiguration was there] c) The scattering at Babel under the auspices of 70 of God's disobedient beings. [Psalm 82 and Deut 32] These nations would be gathered later beginning at Pentecost. God told Abram that he would bless all nations thru him... Justin--I am sorry, but this is conjecture. Show me how Peter and Jude told us that the giants' spirits are demons. Show me just where and how you know that is what 'sons of God' meant in Gen 6. I am confident should my Lord want that stuff in the Bible--it would be. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Adams Posted January 18, 2020 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 25 Topic Count: 61 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 9,605 Content Per Day: 3.97 Reputation: 7,795 Days Won: 21 Joined: 09/11/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted January 18, 2020 Just now, Alive said: Justin--I am sorry, but this is conjecture. Show me how Peter and Jude told us that the giants' spirits are demons. Show me just where and how you know that is what 'sons of God' meant in Gen 6. I am confident should my Lord want that stuff in the Bible--it would be. They say that the angels that sinned were like the people trying to bring falsehood into their congregations. Sons of God is a generic term for heavenly beings (fallen and obedient). And it is in the bible, many times mentioned. Elohim refers to disembodied spirits. Yahweh is an elohim, but no other elohim is Yahweh. It also depends on your translations as well. Try the newer ones incorporating dead sea scroll information. Apr 28, 2017 For those who prefer to read the scrolls in English, Logos also offers The Dead Sea Scrolls in English by Geza Vermes and The Dead Sea Scrolls: A New Translation by Michael Wise, Martin Abegg, and Edward Cook. There is also the recently released Lexham DSS Hebrew English Interlinear Bible. See the FREE logos software plus interlinear at Logos.com. [https://www.logos.com/why-logos] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alive Posted January 18, 2020 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 22 Topic Count: 194 Topics Per Day: 0.11 Content Count: 11,053 Content Per Day: 6.55 Reputation: 9,015 Days Won: 36 Joined: 09/12/2019 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/09/1956 Share Posted January 18, 2020 3 minutes ago, Justin Adams said: They say that the angels that sinned were like the people trying to bring falsehood into their congregations. Sons of God is a generic term for heavenly beings (fallen and obedient). And it is in the bible, many times mentioned. Elohim refers to disembodied spirits. Yahweh is an elohim, but no other elohim is Yahweh. It also depends on your translations as well. Try the newer ones incorporating dead sea scroll information. Apr 28, 2017 For those who prefer to read the scrolls in English, Logos also offers The Dead Sea Scrolls in English by Geza Vermes and The Dead Sea Scrolls: A New Translation by Michael Wise, Martin Abegg, and Edward Cook. There is also the recently released Lexham DSS Hebrew English Interlinear Bible. See the FREE logos software plus interlinear at Logos.com. [https://www.logos.com/why-logos] Sorry again--I don't mean to be argumentative, but this is not even close to being convincing. I have in my Accordance Software most every translation as well as original texts, all the Church Fathers (so called), etc. etc. etc.-- I repeat--Jesus Himself told us the angels don't have babies. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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