women in the pulpit

[OneLight]

12 minutes ago, Abby-Joy said:

I agree with 95% of what you said except the prideful statements against women. It is not a shame when God uses women. The shame is that men have left their positions. God still will use women as He chooses regardless of if there is a man. And yet, there is an order that He has set forth. 

My full comment was: "God Himself set up the linage of authority, not man.  If this rattles the feathers of women, I highly suggest they take this up with God, not men.  All this does is divide and cause strife.  Will God use a woman if He cannot find a man to do His will?  To the dishonor and shame of man, I am sure He will.  Again, this cannot be resolved in any debate, but through God alone."

I am sure we both can agree that some women get rather upset when discussing men's and women's roles, as do some men.  All we have to do is search this site and we will find many threads where this can be seen.   Yet, this thread is speaking of the authority shown in scripture, not worldly positions.  When I said " God Himself set up the linage of authority, not man.  If this rattles the feathers of women, I highly suggest they take this up with God, not men.  All this does is divide and cause strife.", this is so true, but then I added "Will God use a woman if He cannot find a man to do His will?  To the dishonor and shame of man, I am sure He will.  Again, this cannot be resolved in any debate, but through God alone.", which places the shame on men, not women as you state above. so, you see, we are in agreement.

Edited to add that pride falls on both men and women, not just women.  I don't believe I excluded men and was speaking only of women.

Edited November 4, 2019 by OneLight

[Coliseum]

40 minutes ago, Abby-Joy said:

I can respect what you've said here. And even that can leave a sour taste in the mouth of a woman who has seldom if ever met a truly godly man. 

But honestly and truly, from the beginning (with the fall), it has been an issue of men not fulfilling their God-given roles. That trickles down to the woman and the children. 

I hope that there are both men and women who are married, on this forum, who can attest to the Godliness and love in their marriage. I know there are those who place God above all who, with tangible evidence, love their spouse.

I met a woman once who I witnessed among three of her friends engaged in a conversation on a street corner. Across the street my blind friend and I were talking, and I noticed the woman gazing at us. When the light changed she crossed the street and began talking with my friend, who she quickly realized was blind. She asked him a "crazy" question: "Would you like to go golfing with me"? He laughed in amusement and told her he would not be able to see the ball, but she persisted, and shared that she would guide him. So he said yes. I drove my friend to the golf course and she met us, and led him to the playing field. I watched from a distance as she held his hand to grip the golf club. But when he took a swing, he missed the ball, and on the way back from his swing, the golf club struck the ball and it went in the opposite direction. The crowd saw this and anyone could tell they were about to laugh; but she quickly interceded and yelled, "Hole in one," and that crowd, instead of laughing, began to cheer. I almost cried at the tenderness of that whole scene. At the end, I took my friend home, and he told me he had never "seen" a more beautiful woman in his life. 

There are men and women who really get it. We never saw her again.

Edited November 4, 2019 by Coliseum

[OneLight]

46 minutes ago, Abby-Joy said:

Thank you for explaining and not taking offense. Please accept my apology for misinterpreting what you said.

We all misread others from time to time.  I appreciate your apology.  I will say that I would much rather explain myself further then take any offense for any misunderstanding.  Feel free to ask me to explain myself if you think there is anything I said that is seen as offensive.

[dhchristian]

Wow!, I Knew this was a hot button topic. One that is being used to divide the church in this day and age, and in my opinion for political reasons. You all have said a lot of great things here on both sides of this topic, and I want to commend you all for not letting the topic descend into vitriol. Peter writes the following of elders, which I feel is the same as Pastor.

The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock. And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away. Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble. Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time: (1 Peter 5:1-6)

Now this passage does not get into sexes in the ministry at all, but does point to the characteristic that is of utmost importance in this debate, and that is feeding the flock vs. Lording over the flock. Woman in general have a far greater role in the church than we give credit for, in their nurturing heart, they teach this quality to the men which are in leadership roles, both as young children being brought up in a family setting, and as examples of submission and humility in the body of Christ. 

We, however, live in a mixed up world in this regard. Submission is a bad word, both in the feminist mindset, and the male ego, therefore many of these men in leadership roles never learn their proper role as a servant and ensample to the flock. Many raised in homes where this sort of role is mixed up, never grasp the concept that as shepherds of the flock, we are under shepherds to the Chief shepherd. Jesus is the head of the church, and the shepherd is merely a servant caring for the sheep.

In This debate, we are seeing the high minded over lording shepherds speaking out against the "feminist" elements of women striving for leadership roles. Thus the problem itself is two fold, both sides striving to lord over the flock. Shepherding in real life is "dirty Job" (Ask Mike Rowe about this), and as such we men need to step up and fill this role that woman should not have to, it is not that they are incapable of this, But that they should not be forced into this role because men are not doing their job. Right now in this country, pastoring is seen as a career choice, and rewarded as such. We send young men and women to seminary and they become ordained pastors, But in biblical times the role of shepherd was a role filled by elders as the passage indicates, and they do so willingly to serve, and not for filthy lucre's sake.

So the question for all here is if the role of pastor is a servant role, requiring submission to the chief shepherd, and should be based on elder standing, why is there such a power struggle to attain this position? Perhaps the answer lies in the motives of those who either seek this role as Women, and those who in pride rule over (abusively in some cases) over the sheep.

Pastoring should never be a power struggle, and as for male and female, This dirty Job is not something a woman should have to do and men should "willingly" take on this role of submitted servant to the chief shepherd. Men have lost their way in this regard, seeking power instead of learning submission to Christ who is the head. Some woman do this as well, and this should not be the case.

Woman in the pastoring role is a sign of sickness in the church as a whole, a sickness that comes from a wrong understanding of what shepherding really is. In Biblical times shepherds were the lowest class of society, and even in the church structure that Paul outlined, they were near the bottom in authority, Below prophets and evangelists. There have been many female prophets and evangelists in church History, and there is no exclusion for woman in those roles so we should encourage woman into these roles as opposed to the Dirty Job of Pastor and shepherd.

My Two cents for any who care to hear them.          

 

[Wayne222]

3 hours ago, ReneeIW said:

You may be surprised by this, but try asking a younger woman what a feminist is and they won’t be able to tell you. 

And it is Christ who made us all equal. The world is just starting to catch up with that. 

All are not the same. We are one in christ as to salvation. Is a old person the same as a 25 year old. The bible says to stand up in the presence of a aged person. There are roles in the body of christ. That is clear. Male and female have different roles. All are important.  

[Dennis1209]

I was 67 years old, I was born a male in 1952. I'm tired of being called an old man, taken advantage of and discriminated against because of my age and gender. So, this morning I woke up and decided I wanted to be 30 years old, and still a man. So I want the laws to change and recognize me for what I now am, a 30 year old male man. Now I'm feeling better, I'm on par with the 30 year old's and can do everything they can do. 

Are my desires, logic and reasoning flawed? If so, why?

[Wayne222]

      If God set women to be pastors and to oversee a church. Why is that not in the new testament.  It would be. The Angel's left there place according to jude

 They wanted more and better things. They were condemned.  I know it's not the same but the principle is. I am not against women. The thing is the world has changed.  Women role was wife mother keeper of the home. But its twisted now. And that's a important role in the family. Maybe more then the man's. 

[ReneeIW]

36 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

I was 67 years old, I was born a male in 1952. I'm tired of being called an old man, taken advantage of and discriminated against because of my age and gender. So, this morning I woke up and decided I wanted to be 30 years old, and still a man. So I want the laws to change and recognize me for what I now am, a 30 year old male man. Now I'm feeling better, I'm on par with the 30 year old's and can do everything they can do. 

Are my desires, logic and reasoning flawed? If so, why?

What does this have to do with the price of tea in China?

 

[ReneeIW]

31 minutes ago, Wayne222 said:

      If God set women to be pastors and to oversee a church. Why is that not in the new testament.  It would be. The Angel's left there place according to jude

 

He was speaking to that culture. And if that were meant for everyone, it would have come out of Christ's mouth. Yes, it's all God's Word, but Paul said things that were suggestions for that culture. Everything else that Paul said was an explanation of things that had already been said by Christ.

In any case, we already have female pastors, so not sure what the point of the argument is. The church has already decided that these verses were not meant for every culture. 

[Wayne222]

18 minutes ago, ReneeIW said:

He was speaking to that culture. And if that were meant for everyone, it would have come out of Christ's mouth. Yes, it's all God's Word, but Paul said things that were suggestions for that culture. Everything else that Paul said was an explanation of things that had already been said by Christ.

In any case, we already have female pastors, so not sure what the point of the argument is. The church has already decided that these verses were not meant for every culture. 

My feelings is its  not biblical. Truth should always be discussed. I know the bible says christ is the head of man and man is head of the women. I will hold to that myself. If It said women was head of the man I would hold to that. I am just going to hold to bible truth. I cannot change to please men or women.