THE TORAH --- WRONG CONCLUSION

[BibleGuy]

3 hours ago, blessedwoman said:

Hello, usually these types of debates become confusing for me.

From what i understand, as a Gentile, i shouldn't be burdened to observe the Jewish laws because im not physically a Jew. Yes, spiritually im a Jew but physically a Gentile.

Acts 15:19-29 (NKJV)
 Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God,
 but that we write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from things strangled, and from blood.
 For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”
 Then it pleased the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas, namely, Judas who was also named Barsabas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren.
 They wrote this letter by them: The apostles, the elders, and the brethren, To the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia: Greetings.
 Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, “You must be circumcised and keep the law”—to whom we gave no such commandment—
 it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
 We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also report the same things by word of mouth.
 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things:
 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.

Hi there!

Ac. 15 opposes TORAH+CIRCUMCISION as proof of Gentile salvation.

Ac. 15 does NOT opposes Gentile growth in faithful obedience to Torah AFTER salvation.

And sure enough, Paul (who was present in Ac. 15) requires the Gentile-inclusive Corinthian congregation to obey ALL TORAH (2Ti.3:16).

Again, Paul requires ALL TORAH (1Cor.7:19).

Again, Paul says believing Gentiles are NOT excluded from Israel(Eph.2:12), thus believing Gentiles are ISRAELITES....and Israelites obey TORAH (Mal.4:4).

Again, Paul says the believing Gentiles of Rom.9:24-26 are the ISRAELITES of Hos.1 (citing Hos.1 at Rom.9:24-26).

Again, Paul says believing Gentiles are NOT excluded from the covenants (plural! Eph.2:12)....and the covenants are given as Torah (e.g., Jer.31:33).

Again, Paul affirms the New Covenant (1Cor.11) which is given as Torah (Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10;10:16) "from now and forever" (citing Is.59:20-21 at Rom.11:26-27).

Again, Paul says the Spirit opposes the flesh (Rom.8:13)...and the flesh oppose Torah (Rom.8:7)....so the Spirit opposes Torah-disobedience....so obey Torah in the Spirit!

 

So, it makes no difference whether you are "physically a Jew"....because the SAME TORAH (Heb.8:10) is for ALL New Covenant Participants....including you!

After all, Jesus requires all Torah (Mt.5:19) for all disciples of all nations (Mt.28:19-20)....so of course!  Let's OBEY!

blessings...

 

 

[BibleGuy]

3 hours ago, blessedwoman said:

I agree with you on this, for some, it is just too good to be true.

Hallelujah that Jesus says,

John 8:36 (KJV)

If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Also, Jesus maximizes on the word rest througout scripture.

A person can't rest if they think they must keep the law in order to obtain salvation. I had read earlier a man on here say he got a circumcized.

I felt bad because His Word says men don't have the need to do that anymore.

The man may think it's due to personal reasons but what if he did it as a "just in case" thing?

Galatians 5:3-6 (KJV)

For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

 

If a man becomes born again, it is his faith that pleases The Lord, if anything, Jesus would be most pleased by the man leaving himself alone and focusing on working out his salvation with fear and trembling.

If you weren't circumcized as an infant, what is your real reason for it after you've already read what His Word said about it?

That is just my opinion on it.

Hi there!

"A person can't rest if they think they must keep the law in order to obtain salvation. "

We don't keep the law to "obtain salvation".

We keep the law to express our LOVE (1Jn.5:3;Dt.6:5,25).

blessings...

 

 

[BibleGuy]

2 hours ago, DustyRoad said:

From what I've seen, sister, there's plenty to be confused about. You're one who understands the truth -- not a single one of us deserves the forgiveness of God -- and you live with God's grace knowing how Jesus Christ and no one else presents us spotless before our Father in heaven. This is the work of the Son of God, not the Law which condemns the flesh and subsequently can't save it.

The confusion for us clears when we view the evidence: there are some lurking about who appear to be incapable of understanding how the arrival of the Word made flesh … the cross he bore … and his subsequent resurrection from the dead proving that he is the Son of the living God, changed absolutely everything for all time. The One who spoke to Moses in the burning bush --- God's Word, his Son --- flawlessly fulfilled the requirements of the Law setting us, his chosen ones, free from our debt to sin and death. O death where is thy sting?

Yet there are those who believe that the shadows which portended the unprecedented arrival of God with us (Jesus Christ, his Son) -- we know of these shadows as what came before the cross which is the Law -- are greater than their Creator and thus exceed him in excellence. This is their gospel, blessedwoman. It makes absolutely no sense.  

 

"we know of these shadows as what came before the cross which is the Law -- are greater than their Creator and thus exceed him in excellence."

The law is not greater that the Creator!

The creator IS the law! (Jn.1:14).

We obey because we LOVE (Jn.14:15;1Jn.5:3;Dt.6:5,25).

We obey because Jesus requires it (Mt.5:19).

 

"changed absolutely everything for all time."

To the contrary, NOTHING CHANGES until EVERYTHING IS ACCOMPLISHED (Mt.5:18)...and Dt.30:1-8 is NOT yet accomplished....thus TORAH STILL APPLIES!

And surprise!  The SAME TORAH of Moses passes into the New Covenant (Jer.31:33).

NEW Covenant (Jer.31:31;Heb.8:8).

SAME Torah (Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10).

 

And the shadows CONTINUE! (PRESENT tense in Col. 2:17 and Heb. 10:1).

 

So let's stop pretending they do not continue to function.

 

blessings...

 

 

[BibleGuy]

20 minutes ago, nzkev said:

Hi again My Friend do you OBEY TORAH, I have read probably over 100 times from you you have to obey Torah, Do you obey Torah

Of course I seek to continue to grow in faithful obedience to Torah...that's what the Bible requires....

blessings....

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

And again, I'm glad we agree that it's good and wise to obey Torah, as you've repeatedly told me here in these forums.

 

Just in case there   are people out there that can’t see through your Schtick .....Torah is good and wise....it just doesn’t save......not by itself and not in any combination with anything .....it was given to “ shut people up” and lead them to the Savior......some just lack the ability to shut up.....much less, turn to the Savior instead of trusting themselves and their pitiful , self- deceiving Torah Worship.Ive gotten all the Goodies out there for those with “ eyes to see” to grab hold of.You have been a great comic foil for Truth to be given- despite yourself.You are among the hundreds of Legalists to come through here and frankly you are starting to bore me....time to “ shake the dust off my feet”. Best of luck to you....

[BibleGuy]

5 minutes ago, nzkev said:

1 Corinthians 2 (KJV)

2 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.

² For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

³ And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.

⁴ And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

⁵ That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

 

Paul Leads us to Jesus you Try lead people to the law

"Paul Leads us to Jesus you Try lead people to the law"

JESUS leads us to the law (Mt.4:4;5:19-20;7:21-23;13:41-42;22:37;23:2-3,23,34;Lk.10:25-28)....

PAUL leads us to the law too (2Ti.3:16;1Cor.7:19;Rom.11:26-27 citing Is. 59:20-21;etc.)

So it's ok to obey the law which Paul and Jesus require!

 

Let's not ignore 2Ti.3:16 where Paul requires that I use Torah to rebuke and correct and train you!

 

Moreover, 1Cor. 2 upholds FAITH...and FAITH (for Paul) is TORAH-OBEDIENT faith (citing Dt. 30:14 at Rom.10:8).

FAITH (for Paul) is the faith of Ps. 119:30,86,138 (proven by Paul's citation of Hab. 2:4 at Gal.3:11).

 

Again, 1 Cor. 2 upholds GOD who requires TORAH (Dt.1:3;5:27-33).

 

Again, 1 Cor. 2 upholds CHRIST (who requires Torah, Mt.5:19).

 

Again, 1 Cor. 2 upholds the SPIRIT...and the Spirit requires Torah (Heb.10:15-16), even all Torah ordinances (Eze.36:27) "from now and forever" (citing Is.59:20-21 at Rom.11:26-27).

 

Again, the SPIRIT (for Paul) opposes the flesh (Rom.8:13)...and the flesh opposes Torah (Rom.8:7)....so the SPIRIT opposes Torah-disobedience....so the Spirit requires Torah!

 

So let's not pretend that we can IGNORE EVERYTHING ABOUT PAUL except 1 Cor. 2.

 

Remember?  You should imitate EVERYTHING about Paul's model (1Cor.11:1;Php.4:9).

 

So, Paul condoned an animal-sacrifice-laden vow to prove he "walked orderly according to the law" (Ac.21)....so YOU should imitate that model (1Cor.11:1;Php.4:9).

 

Or, you can pretend that 1 Cor. 2 is the ONLY THING we should every read from Paul.....

But obviously, there's more to Paul than 1 Cor. 2.

 

blessings....

 

[BibleGuy]

21 minutes ago, nzkev said:

Of course most do, But then you fall short of the requirements you put on others

And we are warned of beware of hypocrisy

When did I fall short today?

When did I not obey what the law requires for others as well?

You're just making things up!

blessings....

 

[BibleGuy]

29 minutes ago, Blood Bought 1953 said:

And again, I'm glad we agree that it's good and wise to obey Torah, as you've repeatedly told me here in these forums.

 

Just in case there   are people out there that can’t see through your Schtick .....Torah is good and wise....it just doesn’t save......not by itself and not in any combination with anything .....it was given to “ shut people up” and lead them to the Savior......some just lack the ability to shut up.....much less, turn to the Savior instead of trusting themselves and their pitiful , self- deceiving Torah Worship.FYou have been a great comic foil for Truth to be given- despite yourself.You are among the hundreds of Legalists to come through here and frankly you are starting to bore me....ftime to “ shake the dust off my feet”. Best of luck to you....

"Torah is good and wise....it just doesn’t save."

Nice!  Looks like YOUR Schtick is MY Schtick too!

 

".it was given to “ shut people up” and lead them to the Savior"

You mean the Savior who requires all Torah? (Mt.5:19)

Ok!

 

"some just lack the ability to shut up"

Jesus told us to apply Mt. 5:19 to ALL disciples of ALL nations (given Mt. 28:19-20)...not "shut up".

Please fix your Schtick.

 

"turn to the Savior instead of trusting themselves and their pitiful , self- deceiving Torah Worship"

We trust the BLOOD (1Jn.1:7) not ourselves!

Jesus is the Torah-made-flesh (Jn.1:14).  Do you worship Him or not?

Torah is TRUTH (Ps.119:142), not self-deceiving!

Your Shtick analysis REALLY needs to improve!

 

"turn to the Savior instead of trusting themselves and their pitiful , self- deceiving Torah Worship"

Of course...you don't want to answer my Biblical disproof of your position...you just conceded your propagandist motivation here!

 

"You have been a great comic foil for Truth to be given"

And likewise!  TORAH IS TRUTH (Ps.119:142)...so do you obey it or not?

 

"You are among the hundreds of Legalists to come through here and frankly you are starting to bore me....time to “ shake the dust off my feet”. Best of luck to you...."

Bummer!  Wrong again!  I OPPOSE Legalism....LEGALISM is seeking salvation by works without faith.  That's BAD.

We are cleansed by the BLOOD ONLY (1Jn.1:7).

We obey because we LOVE (Jn.14:15;1Jn.5:3;Dt.6:5,25).

 

And YOU agree that we should obey too!

I'm glad we agree!

 

"time to “ shake the dust off my feet”. Best of luck to you...."

Ok then!

Come back when you find a Biblical defense of your position.

blessings....

 

 

Edited November 22, 2019 by BibleGuy
typo

[BibleGuy]

55 minutes ago, nzkev said:

You didn't love me like you love yourself

Blessings....

What did I make up, that's bearing false witness, your making things up

saying I made things up

Ha you are guilty

"You didn't love me like you love yourself"

Really?  What's your evidence for this claim?

 

"What did I make up"

You claimed I fell short!  But you gave no evidence....just an unsupported allegation....

Where's your EVIDENCE I fell short today?

 

blessings...

 

[steve morrow]

IS NOT THE TORAH A COMPLETE BODY OF WORK --- THE WHOLE OF THE TEACHINGS FROM GENESIS TO DEUTERONOMY--- CAN ANYONE WHO LOVES NOT THE LORD JESUS CHRIST GET INTO THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN---

*******1 CORINTHIANS 16:22 --IF ANY MAN-- LOVE NOT THE LORD JESUS CHRIST -- let him be anathema maranatha*******

JOHN 14:24 ---HE THAT LOVETH ME NOT KEEPETH NOT MY SAYINGS---and the word which you hear is not mine but THE FATHERS which sent me

PSALM 19:1 the heavens declare the glory of GOD and the firmament showeth HIS handiwork --day unto day uttereth speech and night unto night showeth knowledge --19:3--there is no speech nor language where their voice is not heard 

ROMANS 10:2 for I bear them record that they have a zeal of GOD ---BUT NOT ACCORDING TO KNOWLEDGE 

ISAIAH 53:11 HE shall see of the travail of HIS soul and shall be satisfied ---BY HIS KNOWLEDGE SHALL MY RIGHTEOUS SERVANT JUSTIFY MANY---for HE shall bear their iniquities 

*******LUKE 19:27 but those mine enemies --- WHICH WOULD NOT THAT I REIGN OVER THEM --- bring hither and slay them before ME*******

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

HEBREWS 7:11 if therefore perfection were by the levitical priesthood --- for under it the people received the law --- what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of melchisedec ---AND NOT BE CALLED AFTER THE ORDER OF AARON---

*******JOHN 8:7 so when they continued asking HIM HE lifted himself up and said unto them ---HE THAT IS WITHOUT SIN AMONG YOU --- let him first cast a stone at her*******

MATTHEW 5:27 you have heard that it was said by them of old time ---THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT ADULTERY---5:28-- BUT I SAY--unto you that whosoever looketh upon a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart

MATTHEW 5:31 it hath been said whosoever shall put away his wife let him give her a writing of divorcement --5:32--BUT I SAY--unto you that whosoever shall put away his wife saving for the cause of fornication causeth her to commit adultery and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery

MATTHEW 5:33 again you have heard that it hath been said by them of old time thou shalt not forswear thyself but shall perform unto THE LORD thine oaths --5:34 BUT I SAY unto you swear not at all neither by heaven for it is GODS THRONE

MATTHEW 5:38 you have heard that it hath been said an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth --5:39-- BUT I  SAY unto you that you resist not evil but whosoever shall smite thee on the right cheek  turn to him the other also 

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

1 PETER 4:17 for the time is come that judgement must begin at the house of GOD and if it first begin at us what shall the end be of them that --- OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL OF GOD ---

2 THESSALONIANS 1:7 and to you who are troubled --rest with us-- when THE LORD JESUS shall be revealed from heaven with HIS mighty angels --1:8-- in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that ---THAT KNOW NOT GOD --- AND THAT OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST ---

1 JOHN 5:2 ---BY THIS WE KNOW --- that we love the children of GOD when we love GOD --- AND KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS 

1 PETER 1:22 seeing you have purified your souls in ---OBEYING THE TRUTH--- THROUGH THE SPIRIT --- unto unfeigned love of the brethren see that you love one another with a pure heart fervently --1:23--BEING BORN AGAIN-- not of corruptible seed but of incorruptible --- BY THE WORD OF GOD --- which liveth and abideth for ever --1:24-- for all flesh is as grass and all the glory of man as the flower of grass the grass withereth and the flower thereof falleth away 

1 PETER 1:25 ---BUT THE WORD OF THE LORD ENDURETH FOREVER--- and this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you 

 

LOVING THE LORD JESUS CHRIST