Are the 10 Commandments called "the moral law"?

[Alive]

OK--only the Lord Himself knows my heart.

I think it best, to leave this where it is. Folks can judge.

[Billiards Ball]

4 hours ago, Tzephanyahu said:

No, it's not for salvation's sake.  In keeping the Sabbath, no man will be saved or can be saved.  Salvation is a gift from the Father through the atoning death and resurrection of His Son. 

Again, Sabbath keeping is not for the purposes of salvation or adding/completing your salvation.  Neither is any Torah observance. But it's about behaviour and obedience thereafter.  

Consider what the Messiah said in Matthew 5.  Those who observe and teach the Torah, will be called greatest in the Kingdom and those who don't will be called least.  Now, there we have two groups described but BOTH are in the Kingdom of God (that is, saved).  But why strive to be the least in the Kingdom?

I'm not telling you to keep Sabbath.  I'm not telling you that you need to in order to be saved.  I'm just saying that's it's a risking thing to say "breaking the Sabbath is lawful" when you don't need to.  Each of our words need to be accounted for and simply saying "I think that breaking the Sabbath is lawful" is much better.  Because what IF you are wrong?  You might not be.  But what IF you are?  These are heavy words to account for, no?

Respectfully to you, breaking the Sabbath is indeed lawful/legal. What are the implications of committing fornication? Adultery? Withholding tithes and offerings? Murder? Bearing false witness? ...But does God hate all the born agains who preach the gospel on Wednesday or Friday instead of meeting "on the true Sabbath" instead?

Keeping Torah/Law to be a better person is a part of “sanctification”. Doing your best as a Christian is working toward sanctification.

Do you remember the warning that someone not providing for their family is worse than an unbeliever? If your boss makes you work Saturday/Sunday for a paycheck, then you have to take Monday/Tuesday off instead, because you have to have this job this week for your family, God isn’t angry with you, He is PLEASED.

Breaking the Sabbath is lawful.

[Tzephanyahu]

25 minutes ago, Billiards Ball said:

Breaking the Sabbath is lawful.

I see your point. I don't agree though.

[Billiards Ball]

Just now, Tzephanyahu said:

I see your point. I don't agree though.

Do you want to tell me why you don't agree?

[Tzephanyahu]

1 hour ago, Billiards Ball said:

Do you want to tell me why you don't agree?

To be honest friend, not really. What's the point? If you're happy to make such statements like "breaking the Sabbath is lawful" and still not precede it with "I think.." or "I believe...", then surely you've made your mind up on the matter already. 

If that's your opinion, that's your opinion. We just disagree on it. But no biggie. 

May Yahweh bless your day. 

Edited January 7, 2020 by Tzephanyahu

[Billiards Ball]

1 minute ago, Tzephanyahu said:

To be honest friend, not really. What's the point? If you're happy to make such statements like "breaking the Sabbath is lawful" and still not precede it with "I think.." or "I believe...", then surely you've made your mind up on the matter already. 

If that's your opinion, that's your opinion. We just disagree on it. But no biggie, for who am I?

May Yahweh bless your day. 

I hope we agree that Jesus is Lord, not "we think He is Lord".

We are to reprove, exhort, love and teach with all authority from the Word. I not only said breaking the Sabbath is lawful, I gave you an example where one precept of Jesus, "provide for your family", is above another precept for Jewish people, "honor the Sabbath". You will recall Jesus gave multiple examples where something important could be worked on the Sabbath. Jesus broke Sabbath, unlawfully, according to the Pharisees, to heal a person! As a Jewish Christian, I find it odd when Gentile Christians who've never kept the Sabbath their entire life and never on Saturday to boot, tell me I break God's Law...? (!)

I'm always open on Bible doctrine, but "I think" is unneeded when someone asks me, "What does the Bible say?" Genesis 1 says, "God made the Heavens" not "I think I could sort of choose to interpret that God might have made some Heavens" and so on. I'm just trying to save time, but I am NOT closed-minded. :)

[Tzephanyahu]

1 minute ago, Billiards Ball said:

Jesus broke Sabbath, unlawfully, according to the Pharisees, to heal a person!

Yes, according to oral tradition, Messiah broke the rules. But not according to Torah. 

The Lord always observed the Sabbath but went out of His way to show a more important mitzvah - to love each other and do good.  

The Torah is set out with sone mitzvot being more important than others - that's just a fact, and if anyone can't see that they have misunderstood Torah. But the principal mitzvah is love, both for Yahweh and for our neighbour. 

Now, if I see a brother in need on thr Sabbath and by my work I can help or bless him, I should do so. Because loving each other trumps even the mighty Sabbath. That seems to be the Messiah’s poiny. He worked on thr Sabbath to heal and restore because He could and there was need. Yahweh is smart enough to understand the context of a situation and violating the Sabbath to help or comfort someone is permitted. But what about violating it for selfish reasons? 

Therefore,  on the Sabbath, when there is no one "in need" across our path or within our reach, "business as usual" should be resting from our work and devoting that time to Yahweh. Joyfully and accepting it as a delight, as Scripture says, not as a chore and hard thing. If it is bothersome to someone or they become legalistic (no light switches etc), then don't bother, you've missed the point. 

I look forward to the Sabbath eagerly each week. It is a real treasure to me. Does that mean I don't worship Yahweh every day of the week and study throughout the week? Of course not. But rather, on the Sabbath its an extra special time I willing devote to Him. 

Sometimes I'm not ready for the Sabbath mentally as I have things to do, buy and work on. But because I stop and observe it anyway, I reap the benefits of the rest rather than the fruits of my work.  Its like Yahweh reminds us that we need this imposed rest because its so easy not to have and reschedule and do this and that. But, bu observing it, its like you get whisked out of thw world each Friday night to be with Him and stop "doing" and just "be". 

8 minutes ago, Billiards Ball said:

As a Jewish Christian, I find it odd when Gentile Christians who've never kept the Sabbath their entire life and never on Saturday to boot, tell me I break God's Law...? (!)

True, most Christians observe sunday as you imply or say "every day is sabbath / Jesus is our sabbath". I don't though. Rather, I observe it from Friday from sundown to Saturday sundown. 

And technically they are correct if they are saying you are breaking the Torah. But that shouldn't concern you anyway, right?

But again, I'm not saying Sabbath = Salvation. I'm saying Sabbath = Obedience/Benefit. It's a gift. No one should be forced into keeping it if they don't want it. 

[Tzephanyahu]

40 minutes ago, Billiards Ball said:

I hope we agree that Jesus is Lord, not "we think He is Lord".

By the way, yes of course I agree that Yahushua HaMashiach/Jesus Christ is Lord.

But this is quite clear.  If you think that breaking the Sabbath is as clear as that, then again, please provide me a witness from The words of Yahweh, the Messiah or the rest of the 52 books in The Bible instead of the same ol' tired misunderstood sentences of Paul here and there.  Surely there will be plenty of witnesses on such major topic. Surely the Messiah would have made it clear, no? 

But what about Isaiah 56 that says that the gentiles who observe the Sabbath He will bring to His Holy Mountain? Should we ignore such words in Isaiah and instead go with "breaking the sabbath is lawful", based on what? How some have understood some sentences of Paul here and there? 

Far too many are overly familiar with the letters of Paul compared to the rest of the Bible. Paul's letters are scripture, but they need to be understood in the context of the WHOLE Bible (as Paul would have said himself) andnot separated as "the gentile part, in which God quickly updates them with changes to the Word, in a few scattered sentences" 

Edited January 7, 2020 by Tzephanyahu

[Resurrection Priest]

11 hours ago, Billiards Ball said:

Hi Betha,

I'm a born again Christian who loves the Lord. I evangelize often and have given many sermons and done public preaching. I work with several ministries. Why would you write something to me like "Why don't you tell GOD that transgressing HIS LAW is NOT SIN ?" OF COURSE anything unlawful is sin. I know that. The question is whether breaking Sabbath is lawful. It is lawful. Romans 6 says you can keep any day special if you are fully convinced in mind. I'm not convinced regarding the Sabbath.

I would know, being a Jew, and I question whether you are in synagogue honoring the Sabbath each Saturday.

The commandment didn't say I have to be "in synagogue" each Sabbath.  Just said I have to "rest" from ordinary "work". 

I believe the "daily" or moed sacrifices "covered" sins committed in ignorance.  There will be many folks raised to eternal life, who faithfully worshiped each Sunday.  They didn't know any better.  Once they learn that His Sabbath is eternal, they will be happy to celebrate it.

Isaiah 66:22 "For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD." (KJV)

I think you're talking about Romans 14:5  "One person thinks that some days are holier than others, and another thinks them all equal. Let each of them be fully convinced in his own mind." Continuing with verse 6  "The one who makes special observance of a particular day observes it in honour of the Lord. So the one who eats freely, eats in honour of the Lord, making his thanksgiving to God; and the one who does not, abstains from eating in honour of the Lord and makes his thanksgiving to God."

The Pharisees had set aside two days each week for fasting.  Knowing that - then reading verse 5 and 6, does it now make sense that Paul is writing about the special "fast days".  He's not talking about the 7th Day of the 4th Commandment.  

  Mark 2:18 The disciples of John and of the Pharisees were fasting. Then they came and said to Him, "Why do the disciples of John and of the Pharisees fast, but Your disciples do not fast?"

[In the Pharisee's prayer]  Luke 18:12 `I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.'

Cultural background helps a lot - to uncover meaning.

In verse 1-3 Paul says the one who is "weak, eats only vegetables".  Why would he say that?  Well.  If you understood that all the meat sold in the market, was first presented as "offerings" to the gods, and you understood that the Jerusalem council had told new Gentile converts to "abstain from things offered to idols" - would that clear it up?  Paul himself said that an idol can't do anything to food, so don't worry about it.  He also said not to confuse new believers who might be "weak in faith". 

There's a lot of interesting cultural information, which sheds light on NT passages. 

 

[Billiards Ball]

11 hours ago, Resurrection Priest said:

The commandment didn't say I have to be "in synagogue" each Sabbath.  Just said I have to "rest" from ordinary "work". 

I believe the "daily" or moed sacrifices "covered" sins committed in ignorance.  There will be many folks raised to eternal life, who faithfully worshiped each Sunday.  They didn't know any better.  Once they learn that His Sabbath is eternal, they will be happy to celebrate it.

Isaiah 66:22 "For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD." (KJV)

I think you're talking about Romans 14:5  "One person thinks that some days are holier than others, and another thinks them all equal. Let each of them be fully convinced in his own mind." Continuing with verse 6  "The one who makes special observance of a particular day observes it in honour of the Lord. So the one who eats freely, eats in honour of the Lord, making his thanksgiving to God; and the one who does not, abstains from eating in honour of the Lord and makes his thanksgiving to God."

The Pharisees had set aside two days each week for fasting.  Knowing that - then reading verse 5 and 6, does it now make sense that Paul is writing about the special "fast days".  He's not talking about the 7th Day of the 4th Commandment.  

  Mark 2:18 The disciples of John and of the Pharisees were fasting. Then they came and said to Him, "Why do the disciples of John and of the Pharisees fast, but Your disciples do not fast?"

[In the Pharisee's prayer]  Luke 18:12 `I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.'

Cultural background helps a lot - to uncover meaning.

In verse 1-3 Paul says the one who is "weak, eats only vegetables".  Why would he say that?  Well.  If you understood that all the meat sold in the market, was first presented as "offerings" to the gods, and you understood that the Jerusalem council had told new Gentile converts to "abstain from things offered to idols" - would that clear it up?  Paul himself said that an idol can't do anything to food, so don't worry about it.  He also said not to confuse new believers who might be "weak in faith". 

There's a lot of interesting cultural information, which sheds light on NT passages. 

 

Note the council asked Gentiles to observe only a few laws, none of which were "rest on Sabbath". Note also that you and I cannot say "some days are holier" logically means "just the Sabbath" or "just not the Sabbath, fasting days". "Some days of the calendar" could be every seventh day, right? That would be "I observe some days".