Jesus Christ "parousia."

[JoeCanada]

9 minutes ago, charlesj said:

Diaste:

Earlier, near the top of this thread you said, 

"This is more or less distraction from the issue. I asked when the Mount of Olives cleaved and removed and split to Azal; and how the nations were to come worship the King every year if he was not one earth.

The bigger problem with this is ignoring all the other bits of prophecy associated with His coming and the cleaving of the Mount; none of which took place in AD 70 nor in the ensuing centuries."

My question to you:  How do Christians today in every nation on earth worship Jesus and the Father without Jesus and the Father being physically and visibly in Jerusalem? How does anyone worship the Father and Jesus without being able to see the Father and Jesus. And how can you worship them if he is not even in Jerusalem?

 

Hi charlesj,

I know you directed this at Diaste, but:

John 4:24 says...."God is Spirit, and those that worship Him must worship in spirit and truth"

2 Cor 5:7....." For we walk by faith, not by sight"

The time will come when He is in Jerusalem, but He is not there yet. Soon, very soon!

[charlesj]

58 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi charlesj,

I know you directed this at Diaste, but:

John 4:24 says...."God is Spirit, and those that worship Him must worship in spirit and truth"

2 Cor 5:7....." For we walk by faith, not by sight"

The time will come when He is in Jerusalem, but He is not there yet. Soon, very soon!

Hello JoeCanada:

Yes, we worship Him in spirit and truth.  Also, we walk by faith (trust) in Him and carry out His Word in our lives as we walk and live.  We serve Him until death. 

Joe, I am 79 years old now and have served Him for over 49 years.  I have heard believers like you who have said "the time will come when He is in Jerusalem, but He is not there yet. Soon, very soon!  I've heard this in every generation. 

In 1988 I purchased two books, "88 Reasons Why The Rapture Will Be In 1988, The Feast of Trumpets (Rosh-Hash-Ana)" and the other is "On Borrowed Time The Bible Dates of - The 70th Week of Daniel -Armageddon - The Millennium"  The author of both books Edgar C. Whisenant was a former NASA engineer and Bible student (1932-2001)

This type of "HYPE" has been going on now for 2100 years.  I can go back in time and show you prophecies from the Jehovah Witnesses, The Seventh Day Adventists, The Seventh Day Baptist, Church of God, 7th Day and the list could go on and on.  These people are IGNORANT of God's Word.  They are not stupid people, but just ignorant of God's Word.  

"The SUM of Thy Word is Truth"  (Psalm 119:160)

I would rather not write these things on the Internet.  I do not hardly ever get on Facebook or Worthy Christian Forums.  For those who want to discuss it more or any other subject then email me: cjemeyson@satx.rr.com.  My name is Charles 

 

 

[JoeCanada]

1 hour ago, charlesj said:

This Greek word “Parousia” is used 24 times throughout the New Testament by the apostles and ALL POINTED TO 70 A.D. If you read the writings of the apostles (And the author of the Book of Hebrews) you will see “the last days” or the “last hour” these references are looking to the “parousia” (presence) of Christ when He destroyed the Nation of Israel.  Just remember as you are reading, this “coming in clouds” 

 

Hi charlesj,

"when He destroyed the Nation of Israel"

 Destroy is a poor choice of word when referring to what God did/does to the Nation of Israel.

Never, since Israel was a nation, did God destroy her. Not even in AD 70 as you allude to..Destroy means to put an end to the existence of, to obliterate, to annihilate .

This never happened in 70 AD, nor will it ever happen. Israel is God's chosen people.

God does use whatever means necessary to bring the Nation of Israel back to Him, whether it be the use of foreign forces, or captivity, or pestilence, or whatever. 

(I'll finish up later....too many things to do)

[charlesj]

2 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi charlesj,

"when He destroyed the Nation of Israel"

 Destroy is a poor choice of word when referring to what God did/does to the Nation of Israel.

Never, since Israel was a nation, did God destroy her. Not even in AD 70 as you allude to..Destroy means to put an end to the existence of, to obliterate, to annihilate .

This never happened in 70 AD, nor will it ever happen. Israel is God's chosen people.

God does use whatever means necessary to bring the Nation of Israel back to Him, whether it be the use of foreign forces, or captivity, or pestilence, or whatever. 

(I'll finish up later....too many things to do)

Hello Joe:

THE LAST WORDS OF OLD TESTAMENT PROPHECY THE BOOK OF MALACHI  

The canon of the Old Testament Scriptures closes in a very different manner from what might have been expected after the splendid future revealed to the covenant nation in the visions of Isaiah. None of the prophets is the bearer of a heavier burden than the last. Malachi is the prophet of doom. It would seem that the nation, by its incorrigible obstinacy and disobedience, had forfeited the divine favor, and proved itself not only unworthy, but incapable, of the promised glories. The departure of the prophetic spirit was full of evil omen, and seemed to intimate that the Lord was about to forsake the land.

Accordingly, the light of Old Testament prophecy goes out amidst clouds and thick darkness. The Book of Malachi is one long and terrible impeachment of the nation. The Lord Himself is the accuser, and sustains every charge against the guilty people by the clearest proof. The long indictment includes sacrilege, hypocrisy, contempt of God, conjugal infidelity, perjury, apostasy, blasphemy; while, on the other hand, the people have the effrontery to repudiate the accusation, and to plead ‘not guilty’ to every charge. They appear to have reached that stage of moral insensibility when men call evil good, and good evil, and are fast ripening for judgment.   Accordingly, coming judgment is ‘the burden of the word of the Lord to Israel by Malachi.’  

Chap. 3: 5 ‘I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the Lord of hosts.’

Chap. 4: 1 ‘For, behold, the day cometh that shall burn as an oven [furnace]: and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.’  

That this is no vague and unmeaning threat is evident from the distinct and definite terms in which it is announced. Everything points to an approaching crisis in the history of the nation, when God would inflict judgment upon His rebellious people.

‘The day’ was coming – ‘the day that shall burn as a furnace;’ ‘the great and terrible day of the Lord.’ That this ‘day’ refers to a certain period, and a specific event, does not admit of question. It had already been foretold in precisely the same words by the Prophet Joel (2: 31): ‘The great and terrible day of the Lord;’ and we shall meet with a distinct reference to it in the address of the Apostle Peter on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2: 20).

But the period is further more precisely defined by the remarkable statement of Malachi in chap. 4: 5 ‘Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the Lord.’

The explicit declaration of our Lord that the predicted Elijah was no other than His own forerunner, John the Baptist (Matt. 11: 14), enables us to determine the time and the event referred to as ‘the great and terrible day of the Lord.’

It must be sought at no great distance from the period of John the Baptist. That is to say, the allusion is to the judgment of the Jewish nation, when their city and temple were destroyed, and the entire fabric of the Mosaic polity was dissolved.   It deserves to be noticed, that both Isaiah and Malachi predict the appearance of John the Baptist as the forerunner of our Lord, but in very different terms. Isaiah represents him as the herald of the coming Saviour: ‘The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make straight in the desert a highway for our God’ (lsa. 40: 3).

Malachi represents John as the precursor of the coming Judge: ‘Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me; and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts’ (Mal. 4: 1).

That this is a coming to judgment, (A.D. 70) is manifest from the words which immediately follow, describing the alarm and dismay caused by His appearing:

‘But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth?’ (Mal. 3: 2.)

It cannot be said that this language is appropriate to the first coming of Christ; but it is highly appropriate to His second coming. (His second coming seen in Matthew 24:39 “coming (parousia) in clouds”, A.D. 70)  Nowhere will you see “second coming” in the New Testament. In Matthew 24 His “Parousia” was His “presence.”  Remember, He is God and is present EVERYWHERE at all times.

There is a distinct allusion to this passage in Rev. 6: 17, where ‘the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains,’ etc., are represented as ‘hiding from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, and saying, That great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?’   For those who think the Book of Revelation is future this may surprise you...it is NOT.  This is another study and I will be glad to discuss it with you. (cjemeyson@satx.rr.com, Charles)

Nothing can be clearer than that the ‘day of his coming’ in Mal. 3: 1 is the same as ‘the great and dreadful day of the Lord’ in chap. 4: 5, and that both answer to ‘the great day of his wrath’ in Rev. 6: 17. We conclude, therefore, that the prophet Malachi speaks, not of the first advent of our Lord, but of the second in A.D. 70. This is further proved by the significant fact, that, in chap. 3: 1, the Lord is represented as ‘suddenly coming to his temple.’ To understand this as referring to the presentation of the infant Savior in the temple by His parents, or to His preaching in the courts of the temple, or to His expulsion of the buyers and sellers from the sacred edifice, is surely a most inadequate explanation. Those were not occasions of terror and dismay, such as is implied in the second verse – ‘But who may abide the day of his coming?’ The expression is, however, vividly suggestive of His final and judicial visitation of His Father’s house, when it was to be ‘left desolate,’ according to His prediction.

The temple was the center of the nation’s life, the visible symbol of the covenant between God and His people; it was the spot where ‘judgment must begin,’ and which was to be overtaken by ‘sudden destruction.’ Taking, then, all these particulars into account - the ‘sudden coming of the Lord to his temple,’ the dismay attending ‘the day of his coming,’ His coming as ‘a refiner’s fire,’ His coming ‘near to them to judgment,’ ‘the day coming that shall burn as a furnace,’ ‘burning up the wicked root and branch,’ and the appearing of John the Baptist, the second Elijah, previous to the arrival of ‘the great and dreadful day of the Lord,’ - it is impossible to resist the conclusion that the prophet here foretells that great national catastrophe in which the temple, the city, and the nation, perished together; and that this is designated, ‘the day of his coming.’ However strange, therefore, it may seem, it is undoubtedly the fact that the first coming of our Lord is not alluded to by Malachi.

This is distinctly acknowledged by Hengstenberg, who observes: ‘Malachi passes by the first coming of Christ in humiliation altogether, and leaves the interval between his forerunner and the judgment of Jerusalem a perfect blank.’  

This is to be accounted for by the fact, that the main object of the prophecy is to predict national destruction and not national deliverance. At the same time, while judgment and wrath are the predominant elements of the prophecy, features of a different character are not wholly absent. The day of wrath is also a day of redemption. There is a faithful remnant, even among the apostate nation: there are gold and silver to be refined and jewels to be gathered, as well as dross to be rejected, and stubble to be burned. There are sons to be spared, as well as enemies to be destroyed; and the day which brought dismay and darkness to the wicked, would see ‘the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings’ on the faithful. Even Malachi intimates that the door of mercy is not yet shut.

If the nation would return unto God, He would return unto them. If they would make restitution of that which they had sacrilegiously withheld from the service of the temple, He would repay them with blessings more than they could receive. They might even yet be a ‘delightsome land,’ the envy of all nations. At the eleventh hour, if the mission of the second Elijah should succeed in winning the hearts of the people, the impending catastrophe might after all be averted (chap. 3: 3, 16-18; 4: 2, 3, 5, 6).

Nevertheless, there is a foregone conclusion that expostulation and threatening will be unavailing. The last words sound like the knell of doom (Mal. 4: 6):

‘Lest I come and smite the land with a curse!’

The full import of this ominous declaration is not at once apparent. To the Hebrew mind it suggested the most terrible fate that could befall a city or a people. The ‘curse’ was the anathema, or cherem, which denoted that the person or thing on which the malediction was laid was given over to utter destruction. We have an example of the cherem, or ban, in the curse pronounced upon Jericho (Josh. 6: 17); and a more particular statement of the ruin which it involved, in the Book of Deuteronomy (chap. 13: 12-18).

The city was to be smitten with the edge of the sword, every living thing in it to be put to death, the spoil was not to be touched, all was accursed and unclean, it was to be wholly consumed with fire, and the place given up to perpetual desolation.

Hengstenberg remarks: ‘All the dreadful things that can possibly be thought of are included in this one word; and he quotes the comment of Vitringa on this passage: ‘There can be no doubt that God intended to flay, that He would give up to certain destruction, both the obstinate transgressors of the law and also their city, and that they should suffer the extreme penalty of His justice, as heads devoted to God, without any hope of favor or forgiveness.’ Such is the fearful malediction suspended over the land of Israel by the prophetic Spirit, in the moment of taking its departure, and becoming silent for ages. It is important to observe, that all this has a distinct and specific reference to the land of Israel. The message of the prophet is to Israel; the sins which are reprobated are the sins of Israel; the coming of the Lord is to His temple in Israel; the land threatened with the curse is the land of Israel. All this manifestly points to a specific local and national catastrophe, of which the land of Israel was to be the scene and its guilty inhabitants the victims. History records the fulfilment of the prophecy, in exact correspondence of time, place, and circumstance, in the ruin which overwhelmed the Jewish nation at the period of the destruction of Jerusalem.  

TWO DESTRUCTION'S MENTIONED IN THE OLD TESTAMENT OF ISRAEL.

1.   A non-complete destruction.

2.   A COMPLETE destruction.

In Jeremiah 4:27-is a NON-COMPLETE DESTRUCTION OF THE NATION OF ISRAEL (This is the Babylon captivity)  verse 27 “For thus says the LORD, "The whole land shall be a desolation, Yet I will not execute a complete destruction.”

Non complete destruction during Babylonian captivity in 586 B.C, BUT NOW God says there will be a COMPLETE DESTRUCTION 70 A.D. 

Daniel 9:24-27 COMPLETE DESTRUCTION SPOKEN BY GOD TO DANIEL: ““A period of seventy sets of seven (490 years) has been decreed for your people and your holy city to finish their rebellion, to put an end to their sin, to atone for their guilt, to bring in everlasting righteousness (Yeshua), to confirm the prophetic vision, and to anoint the Most Holy Place. Now listen and understand! Seven sets of seven plus sixty-two sets of seven will pass from the time the command is given to rebuild Jerusalem until a ruler—the Anointed One (MESSIAH, YESHUA)—comes. Jerusalem will be rebuilt with streets and strong defenses, despite the perilous times.

“After this period of sixty-two sets of seven, the Anointed One will be killed (Yeshua crucified), appearing to have accomplished nothing, and a ruler will arise (Roman General Titus) whose armies will destroy the city and the Temple. The end will come with a flood, and war and its miseries are decreed from that time to the very end.  The ruler will make a treaty with the people for a period of one set of seven, but after half this time, he (General Titus) will put an end to the sacrifices and offerings. (70 A.D. END OF THE AGE!!)  ) And as a climax to all his terrible deeds, he will set up a sacrilegious object that causes desecration, until the fate decreed for this defiler is finally poured out on him.”

Here in Daniel 9:24-27 some 600 years before the Messiah comes on the scene God tells Daniel that He will make a complete destruction of the nation of Israel (unbelieving Jews), their temple and their genealogies.

God ALWAYS has had a REMNANT.  When God destroyed Jerusalem, its temple and the nation of Israel in A.D. 70 He had a remnant of believing Jews in Messiah that He made the New Covenant with. (Jer 31:31 & Heb 8:8-13)

"The SUM of Thy Word is Truth" (Psalm 119:160)

"Knowledge gained and not shared is KNOWLEDGE STOLEN."  minister, Mark Davis 7/18/07

May the Lord bless you as you serve Him,

Charles

 

[JoeCanada]

2 hours ago, charlesj said:

 

Daniel 9:24-27 COMPLETE DESTRUCTION SPOKEN BY GOD TO DANIEL: ““A period of seventy sets of seven (490 years) has been decreed for your people and your holy city to finish their rebellion, to put an end to their sin, to atone for their guilt, to bring in everlasting righteousness (Yeshua), to confirm the prophetic vision, and to anoint the Most Holy Place. Now listen and understand! Seven sets of seven plus sixty-two sets of seven will pass from the time the command is given to rebuild Jerusalem until a ruler—the Anointed One (MESSIAH, YESHUA)—comes. Jerusalem will be rebuilt with streets and strong defenses, despite the perilous times.

“After this period of sixty-two sets of seven, the Anointed One will be killed (Yeshua crucified), appearing to have accomplished nothing, and a ruler will arise (Roman General Titus) whose armies will destroy the city and the Temple. The end will come with a flood, and war and its miseries are decreed from that time to the very end.  The ruler will make a treaty with the people for a period of one set of seven, but after half this time, he (General Titus) will put an end to the sacrifices and offerings. (70 A.D. END OF THE AGE!!)  ) And as a climax to all his terrible deeds, he will set up a sacrilegious object that causes desecration, until the fate decreed for this defiler is finally poured out on him.”

Here in Daniel 9:24-27 some 600 years before the Messiah comes on the scene God tells Daniel that He will make a complete destruction of the nation of Israel (unbelieving Jews), their temple and their genealogies.

God ALWAYS has had a REMNANT.  When God destroyed Jerusalem, its temple and the nation of Israel in A.D. 70 He had a remnant of believing Jews in Messiah that He made the New Covenant with. (Jer 31:31 & Heb 8:8-13)

 

 

Hi charlesj,

If Daniels prophecy of 70 weeks are continuous, which it seems that many (preterists) allude to, then the destruction of the temple in 70 AD falls well outside of the time frame. 

70 sevens are what the Angel Gabriel said to Daniel. The Messiah was cut off in AD 30, and this was after the 62 sevens (plus the first 7 for a total of 69 sevens). 

Forty more years until the destruction of the temple is roughly another SIX sevens, (or 76 sevens).  The math just doesn't work.

We also know that the nation of Israel was not destroyed in AD 70. Some 60 years after that was the Bar-Kokhba Revolt (132-135 AD), which ended the Nation of Israel, but not the people, as many were dispersed and sold into slavery.

Mathew 24: "For then there will be a great tribulation such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will"

The Bar-Kokhba Revolt was far worse than the 70 AD war. Hitlers death camps were far worse than the Bar-Kokhba and 70 AD war combined. We could also throw Stalin into the mix. And yet Jesus tells us that the great tribulation will be far worse than this. 

There was never a treaty or the strengthening of a covenant that General Titus made or strengthened for 7 years, at least not one that I'm aware of.

[George]

6 minutes ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

And unto TRUMP that rides the red horse, was given Power to take out peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto TRUMP a great sword. Revelation 6:v.3-4

This is the correct quote ...

Rev 6:3  And when He had opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say, Come and see. 
Rev 6:4  And another, a red horse, went out. And power was given to him sitting on it, to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another. And there was given to him a great sword. 

Perhaps a re-visitation of this passage will suffice ...

Rev 22:18  For I testify together to everyone who hears the Words of the prophecy of this Book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add on him the plagues that have been written in this Book. 
Rev 22:19  And if anyone takes away from the Words of the Book of this prophecy, God will take away his part out of the Book of Life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which have been written in this Book. 

[charlesj]

3 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi charlesj,

If Daniels prophecy of 70 weeks are continuous, which it seems that many (preterists) allude to, then the destruction of the temple in 70 AD falls well outside of the time frame. 

70 sevens are what the Angel Gabriel said to Daniel. The Messiah was cut off in AD 30, and this was after the 62 sevens (plus the first 7 for a total of 69 sevens). 

Forty more years until the destruction of the temple is roughly another SIX sevens, (or 76 sevens).  The math just doesn't work.

We also know that the nation of Israel was not destroyed in AD 70. Some 60 years after that was the Bar-Kokhba Revolt (132-135 AD), which ended the Nation of Israel, but not the people, as many were dispersed and sold into slavery.

Mathew 24: "For then there will be a great tribulation such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will"

The Bar-Kokhba Revolt was far worse than the 70 AD war. Hitlers death camps were far worse than the Bar-Kokhba and 70 AD war combined. We could also throw Stalin into the mix. And yet Jesus tells us that the great tribulation will be far worse than this. 

There was never a treaty or the strengthening of a covenant that General Titus made or strengthened for 7 years, at least not one that I'm aware of.

Someone wrote in our church wrote on the 70 Weeks of Daniel that I want to share with you...

Daniel's Seventy Weeks

by Jeffrey W. Hamilton

"Now while I was speaking, praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the LORD my God for the holy mountain of my God, yes, while I was speaking in prayer, the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, reached me about the time of the evening offering. And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, "O Daniel, I have now come forth to give you skill to understand. At the beginning of your supplications the command went out, and I have come to tell you, for you are greatly beloved; therefore consider the matter, and understand the vision: Seventy weeks are determined for your people and for your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sins, to make reconciliation for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy. Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the command to restore and build Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince, there shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublesome times. And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; and the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, and till the end of the war desolations are determined. Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; but in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, even until the consummation, which is determined, is poured out on the desolate."" (Daniel 9:20-27).

Many thoughts have been given concerning Gabriel's prophecy given to Daniel, both regarding what Gabriel was referring to and when it would take place. Instead of just giving out ideas, let's look at what is said in detail.

The Historical Context

Israel had greatly sinned before the God of Heaven. Because of her apostasy, Jeremiah foretold that the Jews would be held captive in Babylon for seventy years (Jeremiah 25:12; 29:10). That prophecy came true and is confirmed for us by Daniel who lived to see the end of the captivity (Daniel 9:1-2).

But why seventy years? Israel was to be in captivity "until the land had enjoyed her Sabbaths. As long as she lay desolate she kept Sabbath, to fulfill seventy years" (II Chronicles 36:21). The Old Law required that the ground not be plowed every seventh year (Leviticus 25:1-7). Apparently the Israelites ignored this commandment; certainly there is no recorded of it being followed prior to the captivity. God did warn through Moses of the consequence of not following this commandment: "I will scatter you among the nations and draw out a sword after you; your land shall be desolate and your cities waste. Then the land shall enjoy its sabbaths as long as it lies desolate and you are in your enemies' land; then the land shall rest and enjoy its sabbaths. As long as it lies desolate it shall rest -- for the time it did not rest on your sabbaths when you dwelt in it" (Leviticus 26:33-35). One way or the other God was going to make sure the land had its Sabbath rests. Each year of the captivity represented a year that the Sabbath rest for the land was not kept. Therefore, the seventy years of captivity represented 490 years of Israel neglecting God's laws.

While the captivity looked back 490 years, the prophecy given to Daniel looks forward 490 years to the coming Messiah, the "Anointed One," who would make an end to sin (Daniel 9:24). Thus, when Daniel received this prophecy, he stood at the half-way point between two major eras in Israelite history.

Daniel had been praying because he knew that the prophecy of Jeremiah was about to end (Daniel 9:1-2). He confessed the sins of himself and his people before the righteous Judge, and asked that God restore Jerusalem and rebuild the temple (Daniel 9:16-17). While Daniel prayed, God answered his prayer by sending Gabriel with an answer.

Daniel was told that a decree would be going forth to restore Jerusalem and rebuild the temple (Daniel 9:25). However, Daniel was also informed that something far more important would happen in the future -- the Messiah would come.

The Messiah's Mission

Dealing with Sin

Israel's real problem was not their captivity but their sins. The Messiah would make an end of sins. That is why Jesus was sent into the world. Jesus, whose name means "Savior," would save his people from their sins (Matthew 1:21). He died for our sins in his sacrificial death on the cross (I Corinthians 15:3; Galatians 1:4).

Moreover, he would make reconciliation for iniquity. Sins place a barrier between the sinner and his God (Isaiah 59:1-2). Jesus came to give his life as a ransom payment for sin (Matthew 20:28). Thus, we were given forgiveness through his shed blood (Ephesians 1:7). In his death he reconciled all things to himself (Colossians 1:20).

In the place of sin, the Messiah would bring in righteousness. He took on our sins so that we might have righteousness (II Corinthians 5:21). We were healed by his strips, so we might live for righteousness (I Peter 2:24).

Daniel had prayed for forgiveness for Israel. The answer he received was beyond what he was expecting. God wasn't just going to forgive Israel for their past sins; God was going to deal with the problem of sin. Christ's coming did not end sin in the sense of eradicating it from the world, but he did solve the problem of sin for mankind. He introduced a system that would free men from their sins. "He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself" (Hebrews 9:26). Never again would a sacrifice for sin be necessary. Jesus died once for all people and for all times.

Isaiah 53 uses the same words -- transgression, sin, and iniquity -- to describe the Messiah's work in dealing with the problem of sin. That is important because it helps us place when Gabriel's prophecy was to take place. Isaiah 53 deals with Jesus' physical coming into the world. Jesus dealt with the problem of sin during his first coming, and, as Hebrews 9:23-28 indicates, that problem only needed to be solved once. Sometimes you will hear people say that Gabriel's prophecy could not be dealing with the first coming of the Lord because sin is still in the world, but such misses the point that sin was dealt with by Jesus' death.

Bring in Everlasting Righteousness

After charging everyone with sin, Paul shows that Jesus brought in an era of righteousness into effect (Romans 3:21-26). This righteousness was brought by the gospel to all people. "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "The just shall live by faith"" (Romans 1:16-17).

Vision and Prophecy Would Be Sealed

To seal something is to bring it to a conclusion. God used visions and prophecies in the past to communicate with His people (Hebrews 1:1). A chief focus of the Old Testament prophecies was the coming of the Messiah and the era which would follow him. "Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. To them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to us they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven -- things which angels desire to look into" (I Peter 1:10-12).

With the completion of the New Law, the need for prophecy ended (I Corinthians 13:8-13). God foretold that when sin was dealt with, He would stop sending prophets into the world (Zechariah 13:1-3). Even Jesus spoke of this when He said that those who claimed to prophesy in His name would be cut off. "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'" (Matthew 7:21-23). Daniel was told that visions and prophecies would be sealed during the time the Messiah came.

The Most Holy Will Be Anointed

The term "Most Holy" is a reference to God. Thus, Daniel was told that the Messiah, the Anointed One, would be God (John 1:1-4, 14).

Anointing was used to dedicate something or someone to God. It was a way to declare something or someone as holy. For example, kings and prophets were anointed (I Kings 19:16), as well as priests (Exodus 28:41). Interestingly, Christ functions in all three of these roles. He is the Prophet (Acts 3:22-24), our High Priest (Hebrews 3:1), and our King (Matthew 21:5).

It was prophesied that the anointing of the Messiah would be by the Spirit of God. "The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon Me, because the LORD has anointed Me to preach good tidings to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to those who are bound" (Isaiah 61:1). That prophecy was fulfilled at Jesus' baptism (Matthew 3:16-17) and confirmed for us by the apostles (Acts 10:38). When we speak of Christ we are using the Greek word for "the Anointed One."

He Will Make a Firm Covenant

As Jeremiah prophesied in Jeremiah 31:31-34, the Old Covenant made with Israel would be replaced with a new one. "For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. Because finding fault with them, He says: "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah -- not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the LORD" (Hebrews 8:7-9).

Jesus brought in a new Covenant. "And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance" (Hebrews 9:15). It is a firm covenant in that it will last until the end of the world (Jude 3).

Sacrifice and Offerings Will End

The change took place when Jesus died on the cross. With Jesus' sacrifice, the sacrifices of the Old Low ended (Hebrews 10:8-10). "Having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross" (Colossians 2:14). Its removal abolished the division between Jew and Gentile, allowing salvation to spread to all the world (Ephesians 2:13-17).

When Would the Messiah Come?

The prophecy given to Daniel not only told Israel what would happen, it also pinpointed when they would happen. The starting point for measuring time is placed at the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem. The length would be seventy weeks, or 490 days. It is generally agreed that each day of this prophecy represents one year. The time is divided into three periods: seven weeks, sixty-two weeks, and the seventieth week. In the middle of the seventieth week sacrifices would end. That would be a reference to the death of Jesus upon the cross when his sacrifice brought to an end of all sacrifices for sin. Therefore, Daniel was told that the Messiah would be cut off (die) 486 1/2 years after the decree was issued to restore and rebuild Jerusalem.

There are three possible starting points for measuring this time frame. But since we know the event that marks its ending point, it is straightforward to determine the starting point.

• Zerubbabel led the first group out of captivity in 536 B.C. 486 years after this would be 50 B.C., about 80 years prior to Christ's death.
• Nehemiah led the third group out of captivity in 444 B.C. 486 years after this would be A.D. 42, or about 12 years after Christ's death.
• But in 457 B.C. Ezra lead the second group from Babylon to Jerusalem. 486 years from this date would be A.D. 30, the year of Christ's crucifixion.

Ezra and the people came for the purpose of rebuilding Jerusalem (Ezra 7:6-7; 9:9). It wasn't until Nehemiah came thirteen years later that the walls of Jerusalem were rebuilt. In fact, in Gabriel's prophecy seven weeks (49 years) were allotted for the rebuilding of Jerusalem and the Temple in troubled times (Daniel 9:25; Ezra 4:1-6).

Adding the 62 weeks to the 7 weeks gives us 483 years, which would be A.D. 26, the year of Jesus' baptism and the beginning of his ministry. In the midst of the seventieth week (3 1/2 years later), Jesus was killed (cut off).

The Consequences of Rejecting the Messiah

There are many people who wish to rewrite history, but the fact remains that Jesus was rejected and killed by his own people (John 1:11). The prophecy given to Daniel speaks of the consequence of that rejection in Daniel 9:26-27. A prince would come who would destroy the city and the temple like an overwhelming flood. That end is firmly determined, set in place by God, as a result of their rejection.

Jesus explains this portion of the prophecy in Matthew 24:1-34, especially in Matthew 24:15. See "The Fall of Jerusalem" for more details on Jesus' statements. In A.D. 66 the Jews, who were subjects of Rome, revolted against the empire and fought a bloody war with Rome for several years. Vespasian, the emperor, sent Prince Titus, his successor to settle the matter.

Just prior to the destruction of Jerusalem, the "abomination of desolation", which Daniel prophesied, would take place (Daniel 9:27; 11:31). In Luke's account of these same matters, Jesus said that the Roman army would surround Jerusalem just prior to the desolation (Luke 21:20). Josephus speaks of a tyrant, named Simon, who slew the priests "as they were about their sacred duties ... many persons, who came thither with great zeal from the ends of the earth, to offer sacrifices at this celebrated place ... fell down before their own sacrifices themselves, and sprinkled that altar ... with their own blood; till the dead bodies of strangers were mingled together with those of their own country, and those of profane persons with those of the priests, and the blood of all sorts of dead carcases stood in lakes in the holy courts themselves." This happened just prior to Titus marching on Jerusalem. This then was the abomination.

Titus overthrew Jerusalem after a five month siege in the summer of A.D. 70. Jerusalem was burned (Matthew 22:7) and the temple was destroyed (Matthew 23:38). The burning of Jerusalem caused the precious gold in the temple to melt and flow into the cracks of stones. The Romans tore up the stones to get to the gold, leaving not one stone in place (Matthew 24:2). J. N. Geldenhuys said, Titus “overran the city with his army, destroyed and plundered the temple, and slew the Jews — men, women, and children — by tens of thousands. When their lust for blood had been sated, the Romans carried off into captivity all the able-bodied remnant of the Jews (for they had done away with all the weaklings and the aged), so that not a single Jew was left alive in the city or its vicinity. Only on one day in the year — the day of remembrance of the destruction of the temple — were they allowed to mourn over the city from the neighboring hilltops.” This was the desolation.

Even the Jews recognized that the destruction of Jerusalem was a fulfillment of Daniel's prophecy. Jewish historian Josephus wrote, "Daniel also wrote concerning the Roman government, and that our country should be made desolate by them."

Think how mighty is our God who foretold the future in such detail, naming both the events and the timing in which they would occur down to the very year from nearly 500 years in advance.

[Diaste]

18 hours ago, charlesj said:

Diaste:

Earlier, near the top of this thread you said, 

"This is more or less distraction from the issue. I asked when the Mount of Olives cleaved and removed and split to Azal; and how the nations were to come worship the King every year if he was not one earth.

The bigger problem with this is ignoring all the other bits of prophecy associated with His coming and the cleaving of the Mount; none of which took place in AD 70 nor in the ensuing centuries."

My question to you:  How do Christians today in every nation on earth worship Jesus and the Father without Jesus and the Father being physically and visibly in Jerusalem? How does anyone worship the Father and Jesus without being able to see the Father and Jesus. And how can you worship them if he is not even in Jerusalem?

 

First, it's not believers in view in Zech 14, it's the survivors of nations that fought against Jerusalem. Those survivors are required to come to Jerusalem once a year to keep the feast of tabernacles. This has no relation to believers, it's only for the nations that rebelled and lost.

"Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth."

Even if the Lord Jesus was sitting on the Throne in Jerusalem right now, this would still be apt as the Father is all. He is a spirit and never seen by any man. But again, this bears no connection to the Zech 14 prophecy.

 

[Diaste]

On 12/24/2019 at 9:28 PM, charlesj said:

 The force of the word "second" as used here is the same as "once;" Christ would not appear again and again.  

And why is that? Because you said it? Because you believe it? Because you quote authors?

This is what appears in Heb 9:28

deuteros: second; with the article: in the second place, for the second time.

You are literally saying 'once for all time' is the same as 'the other of two'.

Here is the verse in it's entirety as you seem to harbor a disdain for copy and paste of the whole thought.

"So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation." - Heb 9:28

It's not that Christ would not appear more than once; he was offered once to bear sin!  Completely different ideas with no resemblance to each other.

 

 

[iamlamad]

On 12/24/2019 at 7:45 AM, charlesj said:

AUTHORITY IN THE BIBLE

GOD HAS INHERENT AUTHORITY

 

•         Let’s start at the beginning, If you look at Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

•         Psalms 24:1: The earth is the Lord’s, and everything in it, the world, and all who live in it;

•          Who do you see here as the “owner”? GOD has ALL  AUTHORITY! He has made it all, He owns everything.

 

 God delegated AUTHORITY to His Son, Jesus Christ

 •    John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

•    Matthew 28:18 Then Jesus came to them (apostles) and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

 Jesus delegated AUTHORITY to His apostles:

 •    John 13:20   I tell you the truth, whoever accepts anyone I send accepts me; and whoever accepts me accepts the one who sent me." 

  (Jesus here, is talking about the one’s He sent, His apostles)

•     John 20:21 Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” (Apostles)

 The Holy Spirit guided the Apostles

 Again, Jesus was talking to His apostles and said:

•    John 14:26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father  will send in my name, will teach you (apostles) all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

 (Jesus speaking to His apostles)

•    John 16:12-15 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear.  But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you.  All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.”

 •    1 Corinthians 2:10-13 “but God has revealed it to us (apostles) by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.  For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.  We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.”

 The apostles wrote the New Testament:
(by the Spirit of God)

 With the exception of the Book of Revelation, the N.T. books were written by the apostles by the Spirit of God.  The Revelation was signified unto John by the angel of Jesus Christ (1:1)

 •    Ephesians 3:1-5   For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles--  Surely you have heard about the administration of God's grace that was given to me for you,  that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly.  In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, which was not made known to men in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God's holy apostles and prophets.

 We are not to “add to” nor “take away” from the written Word:

 •    Revelation 22:18-19 “I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book.  And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.”

 •    Galatians 1:8-9 “But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!  As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!”

 •    1 Corinthians 4:6 “Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, "Do not go beyond what is written." Then you will not take pride in one man over against another.”

 In the Bible, God told us “everything He is going to tell us”!:

 PAUL SPEAKS HERE OF “FAITH”…

•    Faith - Galatians 1:11-24 “I want you to know, brothers that the gospel I preached is not something that man made up. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ. For you have heard of my previous way of life in Judaism, how intensely I persecuted the church of God and tried to destroy it. I was advancing in Judaism beyond many Jews of my own age and was extremely zealous for the traditions of my fathers. But when God, who set me apart from birth {Or from my mother's womb} and called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not consult any man, nor did I go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went immediately into Arabia and later returned to Damascus. Then after three years, I went up to Jerusalem to get acquainted with Peter and stayed with him fifteen days. I saw none of the other apostles-- only James, the Lord's brother. I assure you before God that what I am writing you is no lie. Later I went to Syria and Cilicia. I was personally unknown to the churches of Judea that are in Christ. They only heard the report: "The man who formerly persecuted us is now preaching the faith he once tried to destroy."

 •    “Once for all”  -Hebrews 9:26-28 “Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of Himself.  Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.”

 God has given “All things Pertaining to Life and Godliness”

 § 2 Peter 1:3-4  “His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.”

 •    Peter maintains that the Bible doesn’t claim to teach us everything on every subject, but it does claim to teach us everything we need to know on every subject to please God.

•    Everything we need to have true life and please God is revealed in the Bible!

•    This is precisely why God does not want us to tamper with the Bible.

 Summary:

 •    God has all authority.  He has delegated ALL Authority to his Son. 

•    His Son delegated Authority to His Apostles.  The apostles have the same authority as Christ.

•    Through the Holy Spirit, the apostle’s have written the Word through “Epistles.” (Letters)  and these letters have been put into book form. (We call it the “Bible”)

 

•    Through the terms of the New Covenant we know:

    -how to worship God,

    -how to be obedient,

    -how to be saved,

    -the government of the church

    -and how to live our lives as a Christian.

                           GOD

                                  \

            MAN           JESUS

                |                    \

   MAN’S WORDS       APOSTLES

    (No authority)            \

                                      BIBLE

(Apostles wrote Bible by Holy Spirit)

 

 

In other words, you can't or won't answer His question. Hmmm. It was a simple question: WHEN did Jesus descend down to the Mount of Olives? The answer is also very simple: HE HAS NOT! In other words, this is FUTURE, which blows your theory out of the water, so to speak.