Could the rapture be referred to as a coming?

[OldCoot]

2 hours ago, Walter Goraj jr said:

The only kink in equating the catching up with the same coming where Yeshua physically returns to the earth is, if the righteous are caught up at that time when Yeshua is returning to take over and rule, then who would be left to be the sheep of the nations (Matthew 25 / Joel 3)?

 Just offering a solution to your question. Although words could be applied literally in the Bible, the words that Jesus spoke were "spirit" ( John 6:63) as well. 

 

 

So that would mean  that salvation is just an allegory also.  Where does one draw the line between literal and allegory and who sets the division?   I admit that the HS uses allegories, puns, metaphors, and other rhetorical devices in scripture, but unless the text clearly suggests that, then I stick with the "if the plain sense of a passage makes sense, then seek no other sense, lest one risks ending up with nonsense".   Hermeneutics 101 and basic grammar.

Edited January 30, 2020 by OldCoot

[Adstar]

17 hours ago, OldCoot said:

If that is the case, and the righteous are caught up and immediately come right on down with Yeshua to rule with him, then who would be left to be the sheep of the sheep and goat judgement of Matthew 25 and Joel 3?  It would seem if the righteous were gathered as you suggest, that when Yeshua lands on the earth, all that is left is goats.  But it says the judgement is after He assumes control and judges the nations.

""the sheep of the sheep"" I have no idea what you are saying here.. Can you talk in plane speech.. Reading that at first seems to indicte to me knowing some chistianity jargon that you believe Christians ( sheep ) will becomes Gods and they will have sheep ( carnal humans ) following them.. Question are you a Mormon by any chance? Because thats the only religon i  know off the top of my head that believes human beings will become Gods on day and have people they rule over..

[Adstar]

17 hours ago, kenny2212 said:

The second coming is described in Rev. 19:11-14, right? I see no evidence of a rapture there. Just says Jesus comes to rule. Give me scripture evidence that shows that we go up to meet him and then come right back down with him. 

The rapture happens at the 6th seal - Rev. 6:12-17 - I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and ^[a]behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the ^[b]moon became like blood. ¹³ And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. ¹⁴ Then the sky ^[c]receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. ¹⁵ And the kings of the earth, the great men, ^[d]the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, ¹⁶ and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! ¹⁷ For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

 

The idea that the rapture happens here is supported by the fact that immediately after these comic disturbances and RAPTURE (emphasis mine), the servants of God (the remaining children of God in the earth) are sealed; Rev. 7:1-8.

God bless us all

If you only use one book ""the book of revelation"" as your guide to the future then yeah you cannot see a rapture in Revelation 19.. That's why you use other books of the Bible to fill in the gaps and build up a picture.. The accounts at the end of Matthew say that the returning Jesus will gather His elect on the day of His return.. If Jesus has already gathered his elect before the day of His return then the account in Matthew would not reveal Jesus having His elect gathered at his return.. It would have already been done..

[kenny2212]

I see the rapture in the book of Matthew as well... Matthew 24:29-31 - 

²⁹ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

³⁰ And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

³¹ And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 6:12-17 - 

¹² And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

¹³ And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

¹⁴ And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

¹⁵ And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

¹⁶ And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

¹⁷ For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

I hope you notice the similarities in these 2 passages. 

Matthew 24:30 - ...and they shall see the Son of man coming in the CLOUDS of heaven...

Acts 1:9-11 - 

⁹ And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a CLOUD received him out of their sight.

¹⁰ And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

¹¹ Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

 

Acts 1:11 > The men in white apparel said that Jesus would in the manner in which he left. He left with a cloud (vs 9) and he's coming back with a cloud (Matthew 24:30). The "clouds" in these passages I believe are the PHYSICAL ATMOSPHERIC CLOUDS. Not to be confused with the word "cloud" found in Hebrews 12:1.

Hebrews 12:1 -  Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us...

The word "cloud" in Matthew 24 and Acts 1 is the word "nephele" (nephelon; plural) in greek which means a physical cloud as opposed to the word "nephos"(which could also be translated as cloud; Heb. 12:1) but its meaning is closer to the word "gathering". Jesus comes with the literal physical clouds (nephelon) at the rapture and on a white house at the second coming.

God bless us all

Edited January 30, 2020 by kenny2212
Added more info

[OldCoot]

4 hours ago, Adstar said:

""the sheep of the sheep"" I have no idea what you are saying here..

I said.... who would be left to be sheep, of the sheep and goat judgement of Matthew 25.  

If the righteous are caught up at the same time that Yeshua is then going to return to rule on the earth, then there would be no righteous left (sheep) on the earth for the sheep and goat judgement of Matthew 25 which is the judgement of the nations as in Joel 3 when Messiah returns.

Edited January 30, 2020 by OldCoot

[OldCoot]

5 hours ago, Adstar said:

If you only use one book ""the book of revelation"" as your guide to the future then yeah you cannot see a rapture in Revelation 19.. That's why you use other books of the Bible to fill in the gaps and build up a picture.. The accounts at the end of Matthew say that the returning Jesus will gather His elect on the day of His return.. If Jesus has already gathered his elect before the day of His return then the account in Matthew would not reveal Jesus having His elect gathered at his return.. It would have already been done..

And you need to follow your advice on using other books regarding the "elect" of Matthew 24.

From Matthew 24:15 onward, it is speaking to those in the land of Israel.  Those that will have to flee when they see the AOD, hoping it is not on a Shabbat, etc  

And in that context, Isaiah says that Jacob/Israel is the Lord's "elect"....

Isaiah 45:4 (NKJV) For Jacob My servant's sake,
And Israel My elect,
I have even called you by your name;
I have named you, though you have not known Me.

It is arrogance on the part of those in the body to think that they are the only "elect".   Election is not the same meaning as justification.  The Justified or Redeemed of the unique Body of Messiah are indeed "elect" because of their justification thru Messiah, but that doesn't mean they are the only elect with a unique plan and purpose for the Lord.   Even the Messiah is called the Lord's "elect", but He sure doesn't need to be redeemed or justified or gathered from the four winds of the earth.....

Isaiah 42:1 (NKJV) "Behold! My Servant whom I uphold,
My Elect One in whom My soul delights!
I have put My Spirit upon Him;
He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.

So the Lord can indeed gather the elect that makes up the unique body of Messiah prior to the the calamities of the period, and still gather the elect of Jacob/Israel at the end of the period, in keeping with Ezekiel 20:33-38.

No conflict.

Edited January 30, 2020 by OldCoot

[Omegaman 3.0]

On 1/29/2020 at 12:32 AM, kenny2212 said:

I just don't see the necessity of a rapture after the tribulation. Let's say believers go through the whole tribulation... Majority of the believers would definitely be tortured and killed. Let's say Jesus comes after this and says "Count yourself lucky; you have a part in the rapture". Won't the believers be right to ask "Isn't it too late for that now?" A rapture at the second coming is definitely too late. God might as well let believers (non-Jewish believers) make it alive into the millennium. The rapture has to happen but earlier (1 Thess. 4:15-17). What I'm trying to say is that it doesn't make sense for God to allow the believers to go through the suffering of the tribulation before rapturing them. Something as unique as the rapture should have a unique purpose... Something as unique as the rapture shouldn't be tied with anything else (hope you understand what I mean)...

God bless us all 

Kenny, my first approach is not to concern myself with what makes sense to me, I just want to know what God has said in his Bible, without adding to what He said, or taking away from what He said. I figure if He said it, it must make sense to Him, and I am not willing to second guess Him.

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Majority of the believers would definitely be tortured and killed. Let's say Jesus comes after this and says "Count yourself lucky; you have a part in the rapture".

That is possible, that most believers would die in the tribulation. Let's consider a few verses, you can decide if they make sense or not:

Remember the word that I said to you: ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will also persecute you. (John 15:20)

11“Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. 12Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you. (Matt 5)

“they left the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer dishonor for the name” (Acts 5:41)

“you had compassion on those in prison, and you joyfully accepted the plundering of your property, since you knew that you yourselves had a better possession and an abiding one” (Heb 10:34)

“not be surprised at the fiery trial when it comes upon you to test you, as though something strange were happening to you” (1st Pet 4:12), but rather, “rejoice insofar as you share Christ’s sufferings, that you may also rejoice and be glad when his glory is revealed” (1st Pet 4:13)

“all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted” (2nd Tim 3:12)

Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him. (James 1:12)

And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. (Matt 10:28)

Kenny, those are just ones that came to mind, there are others, but I think the point is made, that suffering for the Christian, is a normal thing, it is supposed to happen, it is even good. We are blessed if we have to go through that, I want to be blessed!

Not only that - - - ha ha, I was going to look up another, and it starts with "not only that"!

3Not only that, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out His love into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, whom He has given us. (Romans 5)

Are we not suppose to be like Jesus?

looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God. (Heb 12:2)

I know these verses and others, are not popular, the flesh wants it have it easy, no shame in that, but I think that those who want to be spiritual, can embrace pain for the right reasons, enabled by the Holy Spirit.

Take our brother Paul as an example also, in acts 16, he was in jail singing, and another time, he was dragged out of a city, beaten, and left for dead. He was warned by God, that that would happen to him, as I recall. When he came to, what did he do? He went back to that same city, it did not deter him.

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The rapture has to happen but earlier (1 Thess. 4:15-17). What I'm trying to say is that it doesn't make sense for God to allow the believers to go through the suffering of the tribulation before rapturing them. 

15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord,d that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

I included your verses there, and verse 18 as well, therefore, I encourage you, Kenny, with these words. Just as Paul said, the dead in Christ will first. I do not think that all the dead in Christ, have died yet, once the last one has, then after that, the rapture, and the living will be caught up to be with the Lord. They will always be with the Lord, how is that NOT encouraging?

Rev 20:

4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Now notice these people were killed for their testamony of Jesus, so we know they are Christians. The did not take the mark, no worship the beast, so we know they are in the tribulation. Now remember that the dead in Christ will rise first, right?

This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years. (Rev 20)

The ones in the first resurrection, are blessed, that makes sense. Also, remember that they are the dead in Christ. So, it the dead in Christ rise first, and that is after these dead in Christ believers have been in the tribulation how is the sequence looking so far?

Now, let's go back earlier in the Book of Revelation to chapter 6:

9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. 10 They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been. 12 When he opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood, 13 and the stars of the sky fell to the earth as the fig tree sheds its winter fruit when shaken by a gale. 14The sky vanished like a scroll that is being rolled up

Notice that they have to wait, until the last of the Christians will be killed. That agrees perfectly, with everything I have said so far, and yet there is nothing about any pre-tribulation rapture ever mention, and if you go through these forums, you will notice, that no one has ever offered a verse that shows a pretribulation rapture. I think (personally), the reason for that is simple:

 1 I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom: 2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, 4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths. 5 But you, be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry. (2nd Tim 4)

Now, I submit to you, that going through the tribulation, is NOT an ear tickling doctrine. Escaping suffering is. I have shown you plenty, that demonstrates that in is normal for Christians to suffer (for the right reasons), it is even a good thing, if we believe the Bible.

I also submit that history also records that Christians have suffered for Christ. The suffer today for Christ, and are killed for Him. Do you think that all of a sudden there will be a small, limited group that God is going to make an exception for? Maybe He will, but I do not see it in the Bible, and they would seem to miss out on the "great is you reward in heaven" promise that others received.

So, for almost 2000 years, is was believed that Christians would suffer, and hardly a peep otherwise, until 1830, when the pre-tribulation rapture started to take hold as a church doctrine, again though I stress, while it is a church doctrine in many circles, it is not taught in the Bible. It is read into the Bible by those who do not like what the Bible says.

I had more to say, but that should be plenty of meat to mull over. - - - Oh ok, maybe one more thing, you did say something about a purpose, and there was another thing I wanted to tie in, that would help with the purpose.

 29  “But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 “And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. 31 “And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other. (Matt 24)

That meshes perfectly will all we have seen, the sequence there is post trib, the signs in the heavens, was also already saw, it is about Jesus coming visibly, the shout and the trumpet, etc, all there all the same, and it has a gatherint, which I think is the Rapture.

Now, think about the mechanics of it all. Jesus is going to gather His elect to Himself, to meet in the sky, in the air, that is all clear in these various passages. He is also her, doing it as he appears from the east to the west from one end of the sky to the other.

If the earth is a globe, then going up, mean leaving earth in radial directions, but if Jesus is gather from all directions, THEN He can return to one place, as He says He will, to the Holy Land and we will always be with him. As I said all of these versed fit perfectly and fit a post trib rapture as well. 

If what I have said is not true, then let everyone's ears be kept from hearing. If they are true, then let the church hear what the Spirit says to the church. Amen!

[kenny2212]

Omegaman, what I'm saying is that it doesn't make sense for the rapture to take place after the great tribulation. Anybody who does something as little as taking the mark of the beast (which is needed to be able to do something as basic as feeding) is damned.  

Revelation 13:17 -  And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Revelation 14:9-11 - And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

¹⁰ The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

¹¹ And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Why would God put all of his children alive at that time in an "unwinnable" war? The tribulation saints are those who have "a change of heart" after the rapture.

The rapture is God's way out.

God bless us all 

Edited January 30, 2020 by kenny2212

[OldCoot]

1 hour ago, Walter Goraj jr said:

The blessing of being able to "compare spiritual things with spiritual" (1Cor.2) can only come from the Holy Spirit. 

" And the disciples came, and said unto Him, why speakest thou unto them in parables?

He answered and said unto them, because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given."                ( Matthew 13:10-11)

"if the plain sense of a passage makes sense, then seek no other sense, lest one risks ending up with nonsense".   Hermeneutics 101 and basic grammar."

The above statement is an example of the pride and foolishness of man.

Still leaves things open to subjectivity based on the individual reading the scripture.  It is not pride or foolishness of man to believe that there is an objective standard than can be applied to studying scripture.  It was the lack of following that objective standard that caused the Hebrew leadership of the 1st century to miss the fact that the Messiah was among them.   And Yeshua held them accountable for not knowing.

Edited January 30, 2020 by OldCoot

[OldCoot]

1 hour ago, kenny2212 said:

Omegaman, what I'm saying is that it doesn't make sense for the rapture to take place after the great tribulation. Anybody who does something as little as taking the mark of the beast (which is needed to be able to do something as basic as feeding) is damned.  

Revelation 13:17 -  And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Revelation 14:9-11 - And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

¹⁰ The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

¹¹ And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Why would God put all of his children alive at that time in an "unwinnable" war? The tribulation saints are those who have "a change of heart" after the rapture.

The rapture is God's way out.

God bless us all 

Kenny, the big problem is that many really don't understand ecclesiology... who, what, and why the church is and why it must be removed before the the terrible period comes.  Which stems from not having a clear understanding of who is the main focus of that period and what that means for the reason the period is allowed to happen.  There is indeed a specific, unique purpose for that period to play out the way it does.  And it has nothing to do with the unique Body of Messiah nor is it in view.  Nor is the main focus the destruction of the antichrist or the world systems.   The clear reason for that period is to drive the Hebrew people to the wall and get them to finally realize their offense of rejecting Messiah and petition for His return.  Hosea 5:14 - Hosea 6:2 and Matthew 23:37-39.  It is why Satan has expended so much effort over the centuries to extinguish the Hebrew people, so that there are none who can fulfill the prophecy and petition for Messiah's return.

Hosea 5:15 (NKJV) I will return again to My place
Till they acknowledge their offense.
Then they will seek My face;
In their affliction they will earnestly seek Me."

For the Lord to return to His place, He had to have left it.  That was the first coming.  "in their affliction" is a reference to the "time of Jacob's Trouble" that Jeremiah wrote about.  The final terrible period.

Matthew 23:39 (NKJV) for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!'"

Cliff

Edited January 30, 2020 by OldCoot