So are dead people with God or unconscious and wating...

[Guest K9Buck]

7 minutes ago, Jostler said:

At risk of adding to your confusion....(it's all part of coming to a resolution ).

Do you think this was an account of a real event? (rhetorical question obviously )

 

Are Elijah and Moses dead or alive? 

What was Jesus trying to tell the Scribes here? (and the context IS about the resurrection)

 

 

It was a real event and Moses and Elijah were very much alive and with God in Heaven, apart from their sojourn described in this verse.  

[Marilyn C]

1 hour ago, K9Buck said:

 

Thanks, but I'm still confused.  If one has "eternal" life, why would they be "asleep in Christ" rather than being in Heaven with God?  

^{John 3:16} For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Hi Buck,

`Asleep in Christ` means these believers are in heaven. That is what Hebrews 12: 22 & 23 reveal. They do not have their new bodies yet for that will happen when the whole Body of Christ comes together at the `catching away.` (1 Thess. 4: 13 - 18)

[Guest K9Buck]

5 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Buck,

`Asleep in Christ` means these believers are in heaven. That is what Hebrews 12: 22 & 23 reveal. They do not have their new bodies yet for that will happen when the whole Body of Christ comes together at the `catching away.` (1 Thess. 4: 13 - 18)

Well, I know what "asleep" means and it means unconsciousness.  Why would the original author use that word?  Why not just say "They're in Heaven"?  Why make it convoluted?  

[Jostler]

21 minutes ago, K9Buck said:

 

It was a real event and Moses and Elijah were very much alive and with God in Heaven, apart from their sojourn described in this verse.  

I think so too :).  Yet, Moses was not in a physical body.   And Elijah.....oh  boy....was he in a physical body or not?  Listen, please believe I am not trying to be mysterious here.  I just want you to see some of the many things we have to expose ourselves to, and reconcile, before we can gain a full understanding.

Elijah and Enoch represent two very unique exceptions in all of human history.  Their uniqueness becomes an integral insight into the whole of the question....but if we try to drag in too much at once, it gets even more confusing.  Moses was both dead, and alive depending on which Biblical definition of death we want to point to.  Moses was obviously alive to God, BEFORE Jesus final sacrifice had  been made.  Yet at this juncture he was not alive in flesh.

Moses was both dead and alive....which death is being spoken of often has to be understood from the context it is used in.

You have to deal with the nature of time itself eventually resolve some of these apparent contradictions.  The Bible does NOT contradict itself....ever.  So the safest thing to do, in my opinion is hold that as an immoveable, unshakeable belief....and ask and keep on asking for understanding from the Teacher, until He shows you how to resolve apparent contradictions into the whole Truth.

[Guest K9Buck]

24 minutes ago, DustyRoad said:

As for those who aren't in Christ or were outside of the Law, I think the archaic understanding of death as "sleep" applies. They await the last day when the Lord will resurrect the dead to judge them by their works. 

So Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, etc. that die are in the grave waiting to be resurrected, at which time Jesus will judge them and then determine if they're going to Heaven or to Hell.  Christians go straight to Heaven and immediately receive their reward.  Is that what you're saying?  Thanks.  

[Guest K9Buck]

2 minutes ago, Jostler said:

...hold that as an immoveable, unshakeable belief....and ask and keep on asking for understanding from the Teacher...

Thanks.  I will try to do that.  

[Jostler]

9 minutes ago, K9Buck said:

So Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, etc. that die are in the grave waiting to be resurrected, at which time Jesus will judge them and then determine if they're going to Heaven or to Hell.  Christians go straight to Heaven and immediately receive their reward.  Is that what you're saying?  Thanks.  

sorry if I'm butting in.  That simply is not what the Bible teaches.  I fear for understanding of the good news when someone begins looking for a way to explain away the exclusive nature of it.  I do understand why it feels "wrong", it violates our natural sense of justice.  But the Bible says there is ONE mediator between Father and men, and that is the man Christ Jesus.  It also says there is NO other Name, given among men, by which we might be saved.

Physical, natural death....separation of soul and spirit from this corrupted, unredeemable flesh by death, is a hard stop.....no potential for change exists after that.  Our eternal state is decided here and now, and cannot be modified once we leave this body.

There honestly is an answer, entirely consistent with love, which God IS....that fully explains away our "natural" objections to the Truth.

Edit to add:

Every single person, from Adam to the last person born during the millennial reign, has been saved and will be saved the exact same way.....by grace through faith.  Before the Cross, men looked forward in faith to the PROMISE of a redeemer...  We are saved looking back in faith to the Cross.  The only difference is they did not know His Name....but Father first made the promise right there in the Garden.....the promised "seed of the woman".

 

Edited January 26, 2020 by Jostler

[Seasoned by Grace]

John 3:13 is clear, "And no one has 'ascended into heaven' , but HE who has descended from heaven, The SON OF MAN."

How can anyone argue God's word against itself to suit their own conclusion. All conclusions of the scriptures have to be in Harmony with every other bit scripture.

For nearly 2000 years mans has spread lies, since 2nd Corinthians, when Paul had to defend the message God gave to him, and defend his own integrity.

When Jesus comes back to take all believers home, when all believers dead and alive Join Christ in the clouds, how is there harmony there with the idea of people going to heaven before the rapture that is never mentioned or validated in scripture. It's only man's idea's like a lot of other things where lies have become truth and the truth has become lies.

This is only the tip of the iceberg where lies in the Christian culture have been spread so long through the church because no one searches the scripture and calls people on their lies, instead they often say " this is my take on it or this is what I've decided is the truth".

"This is the new gospel", whatever you want to think is now one's own truth and Gospel, and we think we can save ourselves in our false abomination of beliefs.

Edited January 26, 2020 by Seasoned by Grace

[Guest K9Buck]

3 minutes ago, Jostler said:

That simply is not what the Bible teaches.

I was referring to the claim that non-Christians (Jews, Muslims, etc.) are dead but will be resurrected for their judgment.  Is that claim accurate?  

[Jostler]

3 minutes ago, K9Buck said:

I was referring to the claim that non-Christians (Jews, Muslims, etc.) are dead but will be resurrected for their judgment.  Is that claim accurate?  

We will all be resurrected for judgement.....every single one of us, saved or unsaved.

Quote

2Co 5:10

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.