The Chronological Order Of The Revelation

[not an echo]

On 5/23/2020 at 8:50 AM, The Light said:

On 5/22/2020 at 6:31 PM, not an echo said:

  So, did Jesus answer the disciple's questions in accord with how they were asked?  Well, as I see it, kinda, kinda not.

I see it as exactly.

Hey zero turn, 

Following are some of the reasons I see Jesus' answers as I do (based on Matthew's account for now):

(1)   Concerning the disciple's question, "when shall these things be?" (24:3), whether what Jesus answered seems to be exactly as asked, what He answered (Matt. 24:4-14) transcends their time in a Divinely remarkable way---to the tune of 20 centuries worth of remarkable ways.

(2)   Concerning their question, "and what shall be THE SIGN of Thy coming,"  it seems to me that they were as much as asking Him, "What shall be THE SIGN of Thy SECOND coming?"  In reply, He reveals to them many things, but the only time He uses the definite article the with the singular word sign is in Matthew 24:30.  Now, it may seem kind of odd that Jesus would indicate that before His Second Coming He is going to make a Sign Return.  Odd, until it is realized that at His Sign Return, He is coming to get something before He returns later to stay!  And, what is that?  Look closer at the verse that follows verse 30:

 31  And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

As I see it, this is certainly in reference to the rapture (II Thess. 2:1), and the prophetic points of convergence that we see at the time of the opening of the 6th Seal (Rev. 6:12-7:17).

(3)   Concerning their question, "and the end of the world,"  we know that when Jesus said, "and then shall the end come,"  whether this is interpreted as concerning 70 AD or as the 2000+ years of the Church era, or both (in the case of a double meaning), the end would not be happening for over 1000 more years after His Second Coming.

The Light, as we both know, there are complexities with prophecy.  In our endeavor to see things, presently, we are looking "through a glass, darkly."  Hopefully, by the foregoing and some other things that I have said, you can see a little clearer why I am seeing things as I do.

[not an echo]

On 5/23/2020 at 8:50 AM, The Light said:

Quote

2---Jesus sandwiched His discourse with some Christianity/Church Age specific statements.  Near His opening, Jesus says, "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you:  and ye shall be hated of all nations for My name's sake" (Matt. 24:9).  No orthodox Jews will let themselves be treated in this matter, much less be killed, for Jesus' name's sake.

 

So Jesus says,  "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for My name's sake"

What happens before that?

Matt 24

⁶ And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

⁷ For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

⁸ All these are the beginning of sorrows.

Can we see the same thing in the Gospel of Luke? Certainly.

Luke 21

⁹ But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.

¹⁰ Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:

¹¹ And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.

But then what do we see in the Gospel of Luke?

Luke 21

¹² But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

So the Matthew says there are wars, nations rising against nations, famines and pestilences and THEN they shall deliver you up.

But Luke says there are wars, nations rising against nations, famines and pestilences, BUT BEFORE ALL THESE.

The Gospel of Luke tells the Jews what will happen before the wars and famine and pestilence. Luke is talking about the events of 70AD. This should tell you that the events in Matthew and Luke are NOT TALKING ABOUT THE CHURCH AGE. Those Gospels are addressing the events that happen to the Jews and not the Gentiles.

The Gospel of Matthew tells the Jews what happens after the wars, famines and pestilences.

Secondly, we know that God is going to open part of Israels eyes when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. When the rapture of the Church comes in during the early summer harvest the 12 tribes across the earth are going to know that the harvest has occurred and they did not receive their salvation.

Jer 8

²⁰ The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved.

The Jews across the earth are going to have their eyes opened (not those in the nation of Israel YET) The 144,000 first fruits are proof of this.

Hey again zero turn,

As I see it, Matthew, Mark, and Luke's accounts are complimentary, each to the other, but speaking of the same things, as each pertains to the same parts of Jesus' address.  Concerning the word THEN, consider in these passages whether the meaning is at that time or after that as we might use the term in English.  Of course, the meaning of the Greek term, tote (G5119) bears upon this, as I believe you will find.

Something else that I can't help but notice is that Luke (and Mark) specify where Jesus said that those who will be persecuted will be persecuted: "the synagogues" (Lk. 21:12;  Mk. 13:9).  And, who were those that were persecuted in the synagogues?  Those who were becoming Christians!  Those who were becoming a part of the Church!  So, as I see it, Jesus' warnings in the opening of His discourse were not to the orthodox Jews of the synagogues, who would be the persecutors, but to the converts to Christianity, who would be the persecuted.  We see examples of this throughout Acts (e.g., 6:8-14, 17:1-7, 22:17-20, 26:9-11).  So again, as I see it, Jesus sandwiched His discourse with some Christianity/Church era specific statements.  Can you see where I'm coming from Light?

[not an echo]

On 5/23/2020 at 8:50 AM, The Light said:

Quote

 

4---When I see how The Olivet Discourse dovetails with The Revelation, I see the one being the key to understanding the other and vice-versa.  Consider what Jesus said concerning His very first warning: "And He said, Take heed that ye be not deceived:  for many shall come in My name, saying, I am Christ;  AND THE TIME DRAWETH NEAR:  go ye not therefore after them" (Lk. 21:8).  When this is coupled with the opening three verses of The Revelation and the opening of the very 1st Seal (Rev. 6:1-2), for me, some things start to come into a little sharper focus.

You understand that Jesus gives the first warning about false Christs and it matches up with the 1st seal. Yes that's correct. Have you noticed that the wars, famines and pestilences line up with the second, third and fourth seal?

Here's what it comes down to: Those 1st 6 seals are the 70th week of Daniel. The Church is already in heaven in Rev 5.

Luke tells us in Luke 21 that Jesus is talking about the Jews and not the Church as we can see what happens BEFORE the wars, famines and pestilences. Can't be talking about the Church, has to be the Jews. There is no Church age message in Matt 24:4-14. It's all about the last days when there will not be one stone upon another.

Hello again zero turn,

Well, I had to take a break and do some mowing again earlier---out in the field on me ole Kubota today.  It's an old one, but it gets er done.  Ain't no zero turn though!   You know, one thing I'z really like is that God sure seems to like to speak to my heart while I'm out there mowing.  And, it don't seem to matter to Him much if I'm on me ole Cub or Kubota.  Does He speak to your heart much while you're out on that zero turn?

Concerning your opening sentences, I see the first four seals matching up with Jesus' words just a little differently.  This is what I see:

The 1st Seal equals what Jesus warned about deceivers and false Christ's coming.

The 2nd Seal equals what Jesus warned about wars and rumors of wars.

The 3rd Seal equals what Jesus warned about famines, pestilences, and earthquakes, which result in poverty.

The 4th Seal equals what Jesus warned about the persecution and martyrdom of Christians.  Also, I see the "fourth part of the earth" (Rev. 6:8) as being a geographical statement.

Further, the 5th Seal reinforces that the 4th Seal does indeed concern martyrdom.  Of course, history testifies to the martyrdom that has occurred throughout the era of the Church.  And, with the nature of martyrdom and its attending persecution, it is certainly not difficult to imagine such a longing for justice.

I have threads concerning the first five seals that I started some time back.  I really need to go back and comment a little further on each of them.

Concerning your middle statement, according to Scripture, I just can't see the first six seals as having anything to do with Daniel's 70th Week.  Rather, I see these seals as having everything to do with the era of the Church, with the 6th Seal being the time of the rapture---which will close out the era of the Church.  All of this is something that I have not seen the popular views bring out---to me a very curious thing.  Very important to realize is that the 7th Seal can be opened the same day as the 6th Seal, and I believe it is.  This interpretation harmonizes with Joel's prophecy, appealed to by Peter on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2:16-21, esp. vs. 20) and Paul's words concerning the rapture happening before the Day of the Lord (I Thess. 4:13-5:3ff).  Note also that this interpretation harmonizes with Matthew 24:29-31 and Christ's Sign Return.  Concerning the tribulation spoken of in the opening of verse 29, I see this not as Daniel's 70th Week, but the tribulation that has been effected by the activity of the four horsemen throughout the era of the Church, of which we are a part.  Concisely, I see the sequence of what happens relating to both the seals and Matthew 24:29-31 as being this:  Church era tribulation, THEN, celestial phenomena at the time of the rapture.

Concerning your statement, "The Church is already in heaven in Rev 5",  whereas this is part of the view that I grew up with, I can no longer see this as being the case---at all.  I see John's invite to "Come up hither" (Rev. 4:1) as being an invite to witness the event of the Lamb (Jesus Christ) being given charge of The Seven Sealed Book.  And, after this event, he was shown what would be "hereafter" in relation to his time, in accord with the first three verses of The Revelation.  There is a lot that goes into what I am seeing these days, and to me, it all fits so much better that it has resulted in a complete overhaul of what I used to believe (and was taught).  As far as the 24 elders, while I have a different interpretation concerning these, it seems to me that they could just as easily represent all the saved that were already in Heaven at the time of John's entering the throne room, so why the Church?  For me, it is much easier to see the just raptured Church as being the "great multitude" of Revelation 7:9-17, of which it can truthfully be said, "These are they which came out of great tribulation" (Rev. 7:14).  Just think worldwide and historical.

Concerning your last statement, hopefully what I shared in my post earlier today will help you to better see what I am seeing concerning this.  What Jesus is saying to His disciples in the opening section of His discourse, and whatever is being believed about it, there is abundant evidence that His words transcend this time---over 20 centuries worth of evidence.

Got to hit the sack...before me keyboard becomes me pillow!

Edited February 1, 2023 by not an echo

[The Light]

On 5/29/2020 at 6:16 PM, not an echo said:

Hey again zero turn,

As I see it, Matthew, Mark, and Luke's accounts are complimentary, each to the other, but speaking of the same things, as each pertains to the same parts of Jesus' address.  Concerning the word THEN, consider in these passages whether the meaning is at that time or after that as we might use the term in English.  Of course, the meaning of the Greek term, tote (G5119) bears upon this, as I believe you will find.

I have shown you that Luke says BEFORE ALL THESE. Luke is taking about 70 AD when he talks of what happens is Jerusalem. Matthew and Mark are talking end time Jerusalem.

On 5/29/2020 at 6:16 PM, not an echo said:

Something else that I can't help but notice is that Luke (and Mark) specify where Jesus said that those who will be persecuted will be persecuted: "the synagogues" (Lk. 21:12;  Mk. 13:9).  And, who were those that were persecuted in the synagogues?  Those who were becoming Christians!  Those who were becoming a part of the Church!  So, as I see it, Jesus' warnings in the opening of His discourse were not to the orthodox Jews of the synagogues, who would be the persecutors, but to the converts to Christianity, who would be the persecuted.  We see examples of this throughout Acts (e.g., 6:8-14, 17:1-7, 22:17-20, 26:9-11).  So again, as I see it, Jesus sandwiched His discourse with some Christianity/Church era specific statements.  Can you see where I'm coming from Light?

The reason that Jesus is talking synagogues is because the Church is already in heaven in Rev 5, before the seals are opened. When Jesus comes in Matt 24, it's the same coming as the sixth seal, and Jesus is coming to rapture the Jews across the earth that have had their eyes opened when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in (at the pretrib rapture). Matt 24 is all about the Jews as the 70th week is all about the time of Jacobs trouble.

As for the nation of Israel, they will remain on earth (as their eyes won't be opened yet) during the wrath of God in a place of protection.

As for the zero turn Cub. Nothing better. I use it all the time. If I'm planting stuff or cutting trees, etc I drive it to the spot and I have a ready made lounge chair when I get tired. If my neighbor is working in his garage, I drive it over and have a ready made chair. And man does this thing cut. None of these weak blades and spindles that bend or break when you hit a tree branch. Highly recommend. Bought a big Gorilla trailer to pull behind that is huge. Almost too big. 1500 lb capacity.

[not an echo]

On 5/25/2020 at 11:19 PM, douggg said:

On 5/25/2020 at 10:21 PM, not an echo said:

For clarification purposes douggg, let's momentarily forget that I said anything about opening or removing the seals---in accord with how you are saying I should express it.  Now, you plainly say "The 7th trumpet sounding by the seventh angel does take place before the 6th seal event."  As I said similarly before, the way I see it, this is in serious conflict with the very simple and apparent chronology of The Revelation.  I see nothing in The Revelation that will support this.  To me, it makes for confusion.  If I am understanding you correctly, what you have is like having the cart before the horse.

You are being ambiguous.    Is your disagreement that the sixth seal event corresponds to Matthew 24:29 and Matthew 24:30a near the end of the 7 years?     And you disagree that Matthew 24:30b (as annotated on my chart) is the end of the 7 years ?

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

 

 

Hello douggg,

Been trying to go back and do some catching up.  In consideration of your response, I believe another sticking point for us has been that I see the whole Matthew 24:29-31 passage as relating to the 6th Seal and the rapture, as this is where all the prophetic points of convergence concerning the rapture occur.  In further support of this, I see the remainder of Matthew 24 (verses 32-51) as pertaining to the very day that the rapture occurs.  This position is consistent with the other accounts of Jesus' Olivet Discourse as well (Mk. 13:24-37 and Lk. 21:25-36).

If you have what Jesus says in Matthew 24:29-31 as pertaining to both His Sign Return (Matt. 24:30a/Rev. 6:16-17) and His later Second Coming (Matt. 24:30b/Rev. 19:11-16), how do you square this with the parable that He then gives:

 32  Now learn a parable of the fig tree;  When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

 33  So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it IS NEAR, even at the doors.

Do you see it?  When someone is present, their return is not pending, or "near."

[not an echo]

On 5/27/2020 at 6:19 AM, Diaste said:

On 5/25/2020 at 11:09 AM, not an echo said:

Of course, we know it doesn't Diaste, and I hope that my previous couple of replies to you cleared some of the air concerning this.  But, conversely, how does no explicit language of "a minimum of 3.5 years or a max of 7" or "it's also clear it's 7 years max duration" in any way prove such relating to the time frame of the seals? 

For me it's deduced. It's apparent the Revelation is a complete prophecy in itself. From what I know the specifics of the end and the time frames are contained here and no where else, except what is recorded in the Gospels and the much disputed Dan 9:26-27.

The Revelation of Jesus Christ commits to either 3.5 years at the least or 7 year at the most. A lack of evidence for a previous 2000 years is glaring. Now, maybe the evidence exists and we just have not found it, or it really doesn't exist. For now I have to go with nonexistence.

Hello Diaste,

What kind of time frame(s) would you think that there would need to be?  If the opening of the 6th Seal and the rapture had occurred in the 2nd century, I think that Christians would not have thought it odd.  Or the 3rd century.  But, now some 2000+ years have transpired.  As I see it, it is absolutely mind-blowing and only Divinely possible that The Revelation fits every century of history since the time of the apostles---equally---when the first four seals are recognized as having been opened soon after The Revelation was given.  A common response is that similar had happened before.  Well, that doesn't mean that similar would continue to happen---but it has!  What Jesus said would happen (from any kind of angle) has characterized every century of history since.  Nostradamus hasn't got anything on Jesus Christ!  Things could have gone a lot differently, but they haven't.  So, for me, in consideration of Revelation 1:1-3, the opening section of Jesus' Olivet Discourse (note also Lk 21:8), the thing of 2000+ years of history having transpired, and the fact that we do know that the event of the 6th Seal has not occurred (Acts 2:20), it is very fair to deduce that the first four seals have been opened.  And, concerning the 5th Seal, I believe it would have been appropriate for any generation of Christians to see it as possibly being opened.  So, I've kinda come full circle again Diaste, seeing the possibility that the 5th Seal has been opened, leaving the 6th Seal, which can be opened at any time---even before I click on Submit Reply.

About forgot.  Not for sure where you are coming from on "The Revelation of Jesus Christ commits to either 3.5 years at the least or 7 year at the most"?  

[douggg]

4 hours ago, not an echo said:

If you have what Jesus says in Matthew 24:29-31 as pertaining to both His Sign Return (Matt. 24:30a/Rev. 6:16-17) and His later Second Coming (Matt. 24:30b/Rev. 19:11-16), how do you square this with the parable that He then gives:

 32  Now learn a parable of the fig tree;  When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

 33  So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it IS NEAR, even at the doors.

Do you see it?  When someone is present, their return is not pending, or "near."

I square it by Matthew 24:29-31 being at the closure of the 7 year 70th week.      And the parable of the fig tree being the generation that will see the 7 year 70th week take place.     

 

 

[not an echo]

1 hour ago, douggg said:

5 hours ago, not an echo said:

If you have what Jesus says in Matthew 24:29-31 as pertaining to both His Sign Return (Matt. 24:30a/Rev. 6:16-17) and His later Second Coming (Matt. 24:30b/Rev. 19:11-16), how do you square this with the parable that He then gives:

 32  Now learn a parable of the fig tree;  When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

 33  So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it IS NEAR, even at the doors.

Do you see it?  When someone is present, their return is not pending, or "near."

I square it by Matthew 24:29-31 being at the closure of the 7 year 70th week.      And the parable of the fig tree being the generation that will see the 7 year 70th week take place.   

Do you see Jesus' parable in verses 32-33 as relating in any way to what He had just said in verses 29-31?

[douggg]

8 hours ago, not an echo said:

Do you see Jesus' parable in verses 32-33 as relating in any way to what He had just said in verses 29-31?

Jesus is indicating what generation will see His Return.      This generation.      1948 if by strength, possibly.   1967 if by three score and ten, for certain.     Psalms 90:10.

Edited June 14, 2020 by douggg

[Alive]

On 3/9/2020 at 4:23 AM, Revelation Man said:

The verses you are citing is the Second Coming with the Church. The Rapture is the Last Trump. We understand Paul is speaking of the Trump that ends the Harvest (Church Age). They don't want to hear that of course, it throws their understandings off kilter and they then have to try and make excuses.

The facts are this, we are told everything we need to know about God's Plans in the Leviticus 23 Feasts.....

Jesus fulfilled the three Spring Feasts.

1.) Passover {Jesus is the blood the washes and protects us}

2.) First-fruits {Jesus was the first-fruits of the grave}

3.) Unleavened Bread {Jesus was without sin/unleavened}

 

NOTICE{ The Next Feast is all alone on the Calendar, all unto itself in the Summer.

4.) Feast of Weeks/Pentecost or the CHURCH AGE { We are now harvesting souls for God/Jesus, we are now in the Church Age. What always ended the Harvest each year ? The sound of the Shofar, or "THE LAST TRUMP" it never did much, it sounded and thus made ANNOUNCEMENTS, in this case it ended the Harvest, thus God's TRUMP will end the Church Age and ANNOUNCE that Israel's ATONEMENT and TABERNACLE with God are nigh at hand.}

 

Coming Fall Feasts !!

5.) Feast of Trumpets {Explained in detail ABOVE, but they announced the Harvest was OVER and that the Feasts of Atonement and Tabernacle were near}

6.) Feast of Atonement {Israel MUST ATONE before the 70th week closes, that is the Prophecy, so Israel will REPENT/Atone just like the 6th Feast says.

7.) Feast of Tabernacle { The word TABERNACLE means to DWELL WITH God, thus when Israel Repents and Jesus returns, where does he dwell for 1000 years? In Jerusalem, so God/Jesus dwells with Israel, or Israel Tabernacles with God. }

There are many clues in the bible, most people want God to reach down and shake them, and say See here !! But God speaks unto us via parables and riddles, Jesus said so, but only some can see, because many are called but few are chosen. 

By the way, Rev. 11 is an IMPORTANT KEY, its not a real time event per se. THINK ABOUT IT.....We see the 2nd Woe spoken of, but we know the 2nd Woe happened in Rev. 9. So we are given info about the 2nd Woe in Rev. 11 but we are given the DETAILS in Rev. 9 where it really happened. Rev. 11 is a Parenthetical Citation about the Two-Witnesses 1260 day ministry. It starts 75 days BEFORE the First Seal is opened and thus ends 75 days before the Beast dies......CHECK THAT, the Two-Witnesses die 75 days before the Beast dies, but Rev. 11 tells us about the coming 3rd Woe VICTORY by Jesus BUT like Woe #2, the DETAILS are given in Rev. 16. You see, the 7th Trump is the 3rd Woe which is ALL 7 Vials combined. So we are told of the 7th Trump sounding, then told how Jesus will win, BUT we see that victory in Rev. 16:19, where Jesus defeats all the Nations and God calls those Nations {ALL OF THEM} Babylon the Great}. 

The reason the Two-witnesses die 75 days BEFORE the Beast does is they show up 75 days before the Beast Conquers Israel/Jerusalem at the 1260, they show up at the 1335 and turn Israel back unto God Malachi 4:5-6 CONFIRMS this. The False Prophet who is a Jewish High Priest then STOPS Jesus Worship {TAKES AWAY THE SACRIFICE} by the 1/3 of the Jews {Zechariah 13:8-9} who repented, and then in an act of insolence places an IMAGE {Rev. 13} of the E.U. President better known as the Anti-Christ/Beast in the Temple of God where it ought not stand {Matt. 24:15}. The False Prophet has a TYPE in history, he was Jason, real name Yeshua, he bribed Antiochus {the Anti-Christ TYPE} to be named the High Priest then tried to Hellenize the Jews leading to the Maccabean Revolt. So we had BOTH TYPES living at the same time !! Thats just wild !! 

The Two-witnesses pray down all the plagues, so they die at the 2nd Woe, but their prayers to bring down the final Woe has already went forth, thus chapter 11 must needs shows the end of the story, its a part of their ministry.   

I also believe that the Feasts are prophetic and lay out history.

What can you say about the original tabernacle and how if you were to see it from the perspective of an individual approaching it from the desert. What he would see as he walked up to the entry and then continues through the outer to the inner and finally the Holy of Holies?