Why I believe healing is in the atonement

[jc49]

God is GOOD...He heals because He has provided healing in Christ just like salvation and the Gift of his Son,His Spirit,His Word,His Love and Com passion,His Church and millions of other blessings BUT....HE DECIDES WHEN TO HEAL,HE HOLDS the KEYS,HE IS THE BOSS...so we ask in faith,any measure is enough,then WE MUST LEAVE IT to HIM....so ...NOBODY CAN BOSS GOD..ok?

By HIS GRACE sometimes I have been healed and sometimes I had to take pills or see the doctors..ok..kool,I am not condemened if I see the doctors..ok? in fact because of CHRIST I am NEVER CONDEMNED...NEVER,,correct?

We can lay hands on the sick,we may annoint them with oil etc...but HEALING is HIS DECISION..and that is KOOL because HIS DECISIONS are ALWAYS BETTER than ours.... Yeah...God once healed my mother,but then He allowed my father to go to Him..well,GOD IS GOOD,HE KNOWS BETTER,that is why HE GAVE US JESUS and THE SPIRIT and THE WORD and THE HOLY ASSEMBLY of our fellow believers and GOD is S O V E R E I G N....meditate on this term brothers and sisters...meditate... WOF?NAME and CLAME IT?ah ah ah..HE KNOWS BETTER THAN THAT...sorry

But we are encouraged to ask,seek and knock and pray and intercede,correct?

So we ask and we SUBMIT to HIS LORDSHIP...SHALOM and MARANATHA!!!

[nebula]

Hello?!

Earth to Franky!

Earth to Franky!

[Franky67]

God is GOOD...He heals because He has provided healing in Christ just like salvation and the Gift of his Son,His Spirit,His Word,His Love and Com passion,His Church and millions of other blessings BUT....HE DECIDES WHEN TO HEAL,HE HOLDS the KEYS,HE IS THE BOSS...so we ask in faith,any measure is enough,then WE MUST LEAVE IT to HIM....so ...NOBODY CAN BOSS GOD..ok?

Edited July 16, 2005 by Franky67

[Franky67]

Hello?!

Earth to Franky!

Earth to Franky!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Still here, had to hang some shutters.

Your post re/ a person who discerned another who he thought was having a "Job" experience, and so refrained from praying for him so as not to go against God"s perceived will.

Is this right?

[Franky67]

There's that word promise again, promises God made to Israel are ours, in Christ.

I would be careful with making such blanket statements. I bet I can find promises that God made to Israel that you would not want.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Maybe a better choice of words would be either blessings or curses, glad we have a choice.

[Franky67]

This is a good example of what Theologians call an over realized eschatology. It is true that the atonement brings healing, just as it is true that the atonement brings eternal life and freedom from the law of sin.

The question is to what extent these blessings are able to be experienced in fulness now. There is a now and not yet nature to the kingdom. The atonement inaugurated the kingdom, but certain portions of the blessing we will not fully experience until the kingdom has fully dawned.

It is not a matter of whether we believe God can heal. It is a matter of His timing for certain events. If the kingdom had fully dawned, we would not still be holding funerals. That is not a matter of faith. It is a matter of God's economy and how He has chosen to implement His kingdom. All the faith in the world will not keep us from dying eventually (Unless Jesus comes again and establishes the fullness of His kingdom before we die).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi Eric,

Just thought I would reply. I kinda lost track of who said what to who in this thread, but I noticed you only had one input, to classify my thoughts as over realized eschatology. I know I must have come across that way in some of my replys, but I hope my original quote doesn't come across that way, because I just wanted to bring home the fact that how the King James version of Isaiah had the words "griefs, and sorrows", and how Matthew translated them sickness and disease., and how we tend to pick up on these things to justify the fact that healing today is not as common as salvation. And yet during Jesus' ministry, it was JUST as common.

It's just that Salvation can't be seen, and healing , or lack of it, can be seen, and as a result, we pray for salvation of a person's soul, and Amen, it's done, period.

But we pray for healing, and nothing happens, we begin to make excuses.

God meant for this one to suffer for His(God's) glory

God has this one sick to teach him a lesson

God's Sovereignty is being shown here, He will heal him at His timing.

Paul had a thorn that God refused to heal.

etc, etc,

I see the scriptures as something I can depend on, and if, for instance, He says

in Matt. 8:17, "He, Himself took our infirmities, and carried away our diseases."

Then I'm going to just believe what God says, and pray for the sick. That's my part in the equation, God's part is to fulfill His word. but I don't think we should make new theology just because we fail to see results.

I quote from a forward in F.F, Bosworth's book, "Christ The Healer"

"Fundamental Christianity has suffered great damage through the efforts of some theologians to excuse their own spiritual impotence through relegating everything supernatural into an imaginary transition period of dispensational truth which cannot be scripturally proven.

It can only be substantuated through their own interpretation of isolated passages, and is perpretated through blind traditionalism not unlike that which Christ faced.

Yet deep within the hearts of sincere men is the longing to rescue the book of Acts from becoming nothing more than an historical record, and put it back in it's proper place, whereby Gpd can continue to confirm His word, and give proof of the resurrection of His Son in this day of universal unbelief."

dated about 1925

Sincerely, Franky

[Kabowd]

This is a good example of what Theologians call an over realized eschatology. It is true that the atonement brings healing, just as it is true that the atonement brings eternal life and freedom from the law of sin.

The question is to what extent these blessings are able to be experienced in fulness now. There is a now and not yet nature to the kingdom. The atonement inaugurated the kingdom, but certain portions of the blessing we will not fully experience until the kingdom has fully dawned.

It is not a matter of whether we believe God can heal. It is a matter of His timing for certain events. If the kingdom had fully dawned, we would not still be holding funerals. That is not a matter of faith. It is a matter of God's economy and how He has chosen to implement His kingdom. All the faith in the world will not keep us from dying eventually (Unless Jesus comes again and establishes the fullness of His kingdom before we die).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi Eric,

Just thought I would reply. I kinda lost track of who said what to who in this thread, but I noticed you only had one input, to classify my thoughts as over realized eschatology. I know I must have come across that way in some of my replys, but I hope my original quote doesn't come across that way, because I just wanted to bring home the fact that how the King James version of Isaiah had the words "griefs, and sorrows", and how Matthew translated them sickness and disease., and how we tend to pick up on these things to justify the fact that healing today is not as common as salvation. And yet during Jesus' ministry, it was JUST as common.

It's just that Salvation can't be seen, and healing , or lack of it, can be seen, and as a result, we pray for salvation of a person's soul, and Amen, it's done, period.

But we pray for healing, and nothing happens, we begin to make excuses.

God meant for this one to suffer for His(God's) glory

God has this one sick to teach him a lesson

God's Sovereignty is being shown here, He will heal him at His timing.

Paul had a thorn that God refused to heal.

etc, etc,

I see the scriptures as something I can depend on, and if, for instance, He says

in Matt. 8:17, "He, Himself took our infirmities, and carried away our diseases."

Then I'm going to just believe what God says, and pray for the sick. That's my part in the equation, God's part is to fulfill His word. but I don't think we should make new theology just because we fail to see results.

I quote from a forward in F.F, Bosworth's book, "Christ The Healer"

"Fundamental Christianity has suffered great damage through the efforts of some theologians to excuse their own spiritual impotence through relegating everything supernatural into an imaginary transition period of dispensational truth which cannot be scripturally proven.

It can only be substantuated through their own interpretation of isolated passages, and is perpretated through blind traditionalism not unlike that which Christ faced.

Yet deep within the hearts of sincere men is the longing to rescue the book of Acts from becoming nothing more than an historical record, and put it back in it's proper place, whereby Gpd can continue to confirm His word, and give proof of the resurrection of His Son in this day of universal unbelief."

dated about 1925

Sincerely, Franky

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

When a "healing" doesn't occur the way we expect, it's "faith-healing" believers like yourself who make the excuses and presume that it must be for lack of someone's faith. The rest of us are trusting that God knows what He is doing and that He must have a greater plan.

Mr. Franky, you have ignored or missed much of what I posted. What is your response to the scriptures concerning Paul and God givine him grace instead of a physical healing?

And regarding Abraham...again. First of all, the covenant that God made to Abram (later called Abraham) is found in Gen. 12:1-3,

"...I will make you into a great nation and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all the peoples on earth will be blessed through you."

Where do you get out of that that God has promised to heal every single physical ailment? Being "blessed" does not necessarily mean one's life will be easy, free of hardship. Have you read the story of Abraham? Joseph? The entire nation of Israel for that matter? I learned that the Hebrew word for "bless" is barak which means 'to kneel'. Back then when someone bestowed a blessing on someone, the person receiving the blessing would kneel down in humility before the person doing the blessing. This is the picture we should have of what God means when He blesses us. Not that we stand with our hand out demanding we have something we think we need, but kneeling humbly before Him...trusting that whatever/however He wants to bless us it will be for His glory and our good.

I'm also wondering what you believe about suffering. What about the scriptures that refer to God being glorified in our suffering? For instance: I Peter 4:19, James 1:2-4, Phil. 3:10. And how do you explain Paul? Job? How do you explaing Psalm 23? Isaiah 43:1-4? Throughout the Bible God promises He will BE WITH us THROUGH hard times. Through the fire, through the storm, through the pain ..... not that He will remove all of it, but that He will be there WITH US THROUGH IT. I think He wants us to find comfort in knowing He's there...not in hoping He'll take all the trials away.

[Franky67]

Dear Tess,

I didn't ignore what you posted, I answered them,

I don't believe Paul's thorn was a physical illness.

I gave you many scriptures which I believe says God's will is for us to be free of sickness, and live a good long life just like Abraham did. I won't repeat them here again, you can go back up the thread and find them,

Tell me, who does Matthew 8:17 apply to? , if not you.

You may have seen the "Passion", I don't know, but do you believe God put that scourging on our Lord Jesus for NOTHING?

My reason for posting this was not to convince you of anything, but just to see how other Christians believe about the Role of Christ in God's overall plan.

Read back through the 4 Gospels, keeping in mind what Jesus went about doing, which was defeating the works of the Devil. Read again the many times He healed, and how many times He said "your faith has made you whole".

And then read His words "When you have seen Me, you have seen the Father"

"Thy will be done, ON EARTH, as it is in Heaven.

God Bless you

[apothanein kerdos]

Paul's thorn wasn't physical?

The Greek word that we get "thorn" from, and the context it's in, leaves absolutely no doubt that it is physical.

[nebula]

Your post re/ a person who discerned another who he thought was having a "Job" experience, and so refrained from praying for him so as not to go against God"s perceived will.

Is this right?

No, I meant this one:

OK, most of us would totally disagree with that elder who said that miracles are over.

The thing is, going to the opposite extreme is not the solution.

Remember how it mentions in the Gospels a couple of times Jesus couldnt perform many miracles in a couple of towns? Now, I know you would point out "their lack of faith." But also consider - didn't Jesus have enough faith to heal all He prayed for? So, why could not His faith compensate for their doubt?

There's a verse in Proverbs that points out the value of balances. I believe this matter has a balance as well.

Yes, the Lord does heal through us.

However, we in the Western world live in a society of doubt. Our society doesn't even want to acknowledge the existance of the spiritual realm, and those who do, even by "religious" folk, are considered cookoo.

It is good to believe. It is good to promote faith.

But please don't automatically assume the "if you have faith, ask and it will be given" is the heart of the Gospel message.

Paul wasn't healed/delivered from his "weakness," whatever that was. Timothy wasn't healed from his stomach ailments. Your eyes aren't healed from whatever it is you need corrective lenses for.

As Tess pointed out, the Lord had a purpose in Paul's affliction.

Have you ever heard of Joni Erickson Tada? She became paralyzed from the neck down in a diving accident. Although she prayed for healing, it never came. But, the lord has used her mightily because of her paralysis. The ministry she has would have never existed if not for her being bound to a wheelchair and unable to use her hands.

That's what I mean, there is a balance.