Why I believe healing is in the atonement

[Guest shiloh357]

Franky, lets examine the Scriptures you use to promote perpetual good health being promised by God.

Genesis chapters 12,13,15,17,26,28, and 35 , EXodus 2:24, 23:25-31,

Deuteronomy 7:7-15, 8:17,18 28:2-14, Psalms 103:1-5, 17,18 105:1-10, 107:20,21, Malachi 3:1

Luke 1:46-56, 67-73

As to perpetual, Deuteronomy 28:1,2 says IF we obey, these blessings will overtake us. God's blessings are unlimited.

Abraham lived to a "good old age" as per God's Covenant promise.

Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will show thee: And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

(Genesis 12:1-3)

The word for bless in this passage, is "barakh" and means to kneel. It does not mean to kneel in submission or subjugation, but rather to enrich. It is not a promise of Divine health as used in this passage, but refers to something much greater. It is promise to both Abraham, and world that those who seek to do good to his descendents, will have the favor of God upon their lives. That may mean that God blesses you with healing or a good high paying job as a reward, but it does not guarantee it. God promises blessing, but does not promise the specific form that blessing will take.

And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward: For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed forever. And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered. Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it unto thee. Then Abram removed his tent, and came and dwelt in the plain of Mamre, which is in Hebron, and built there an altar unto the LORD.

(Genesis 13:14-18)

Again, this is a promise God made to Abraham and his flesh and blood descendents, and not one that you can take unto yourself. Also, there is no universal principle being established. Abraham was a rich man, but nowhere does the Bible promise riches equivalent to Abraham.

And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years; And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance. And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.

(Genesis 15:13-15)

Abraham lived to be an old man. You cannot apply this to yourself and claim it for your own. Have you not read Fox's book of martyrs? Have you not read how the apostles of our Lord were killed for their testimony of Christ? Even Paul was beheaded. Read 2 Corinthians 11 how that Paul was beaten, imprisoned, starved, stoned and left for dead. How many saints down through the ages had their lives taken prematurely as they spread the gospel throughout the world. Sorry, but again, there is no principle of long life being established for us in this passage.

And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly. And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying, As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee. And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee. And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God. And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.

(Genesis 17:1-9)

And the LORD appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of: Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I swore unto Abraham thy father; And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

(Genesis 26:2-5)

And the LORD appeared unto him the same night, and said, I am the God of Abraham thy father: fear not, for I am with thee, and will bless thee, and multiply thy seed for my servant Abraham's sake. And he built an altar there, and called upon the name of the LORD, and pitched his tent there: and there Isaac's servants digged a well.

(Genesis 26:24-25)

And, behold, the LORD stood above it, and said, I am the LORD God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed; And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed. And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of. And Jacob awaked out of his sleep, and he said, Surely the LORD is in this place; and I knew it not.

(Genesis 28:13-16)

The above passages establish the Land of Israel as the permanent possession of the children of Israel forever. They have nothing to do with perpetual health or healing or prosperity. They cannot be applied to believers today as the "Name it and Claim it" crowd applies them. These texts merely show the Jewish people's right to their historic homeland by Divine decree.

In the last three passages, God is simply passing on to Isaac what he promised to Abraham. God is honoring the Covenant he made with Abraham in chapter 15. There is no universal application being applied here.

And God appeared unto Jacob again, when he came out of Padan-aram, and blessed him. And God said unto him, Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called his name Israel. And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins; And the land which I gave Abraham and Isaac, to thee I will give it, and to thy seed after thee will I give the land.

(Genesis 35:9-12)

And Isaac gave up the ghost, and died, and was gathered unto his people, being old and full of days: and his sons Esau and Jacob buried him.

(Genesis 35:29)

These are statements of biblical fact, and are not anything that you can apply to yourself. It is a tragic misuse of the Scriptures to teach others that since Abraham and Isaac died of old age, that we can expect the same thing. I have more to say about this sloppy unspiritual handling of the Scriptures at the end of this post.

And God heard their groaning, and God remembered his covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob.

(Exodus 2:24)

And ye shall serve the LORD your God, and he shall bless thy bread, and thy water; and I will take sickness away from the midst of thee. There shall nothing cast their young, nor be barren, in thy land: the number of thy days I will fulfill. I will send my fear before thee, and will destroy all the people to whom thou shalt come, and I will make all thine enemies turn their backs unto thee. And I will send hornets before thee, which shall drive out the Hivite, the Canaanite, and the Hittite, from before thee. I will not drive them out from before thee in one year; lest the land become desolate, and the beast of the field multiply against thee. By little and little I will drive them out from before thee, until thou be increased, and inherit the land. And I will set thy bounds from the Red sea even unto the sea of the Philistines, and from the desert unto the river: for I will deliver the inhabitants of the land into your hand; and thou shalt drive them out before thee.

(Exodus 23:25-31)

These promises made were not based upon the covenant God made with Abraham. God already fulfilled what he said to Abraham when he brought the Children of Israel out of Egypt. The promises of Exodus 23 were conditional upon their obedience. God did not say the promises were their's because of the blood of the Lamb on the doorpost. He did not say the promises were theirs because of Abraham. The blessings in those promises were were contingent solely upon their compliance with God's laws, and their abstinence from any type of idolatry.

The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people: But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt. Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations; And repayeth them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face. Thou shalt therefore keep the commandments, and the statutes, and the judgments, which I command thee this day, to do them. Wherefore it shall come to pass, if ye hearken to these judgments, and keep, and do them, that the LORD thy God shall keep unto thee the covenant and the mercy which he swore unto thy fathers: And he will love thee, and bless thee, and multiply thee: he will also bless the fruit of thy womb, and the fruit of thy land, thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep, in the land which he swore unto thy fathers to give thee. Thou shalt be blessed above all people: there shall not be male or female barren among you, or among your cattle. And the LORD will take away from thee all sickness, and will put none of the evil diseases of Egypt, which thou knowest, upon thee; but will lay them upon all them that hate thee.

(Deuteronomy 7:7-15)

Again, there is no mention of the blood of the lamb. If healing were connected with blood, then God would have made healing contingent upon blood in the OT. He would have said, because of the blood of the Lamb sacrificed at Passover, the Children of Israel are herby blessed with perpetual good health and each person will live to old age. God makes no such promise to them. In this case as in prior passages, healing and prosperity were conditional. They were conditional upon obedience.

And thou say in thine heart, My power and the might of mine hand hath gotten me this wealth. But thou shalt remember the LORD thy God: for it is he that giveth thee power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant which he swore unto thy fathers, as it is this day.

(Deuteronomy 8:17-18)

Well it interesting because this verse is predicated by the following verses in this chapter:

All the commandments which I command thee this day shall ye observe to do, that ye may live, and multiply, and go in and possess the land which the LORD swore unto your fathers.

(Deuteronomy 8:1)

Therefore thou shalt keep the commandments of the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to fear him.

(Deuteronomy 8:6)

Beware that thou forget not the LORD thy God, in not keeping his commandments, and his judgments, and his statutes, which I command thee this day:

(Deuteronomy 8:11)

And it is followed by these verses:

And it shall be, if thou do at all forget the LORD thy God, and walk after other gods, and serve them, and worship them, I testify against you this day that ye shall surely perish. As the nations which the LORD destroyeth before your face, so shall ye perish; because ye would not be obedient unto the voice of the LORD your God.

(Deuteronomy 8:19-20)

Again, blessing was conditional upon obedience.

As for Deut 28:2-14...

You conveniently left out verse 1

And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the LORD thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth:

(Deuteronomy 28:1)

The blessings that follow are spoken to Israel as a nation and NOT to them as individuals. Furthermore it has nothing to do with atonement, as that is not mentioned as the basis for the blessings in verses 2-14. It is obedience. It is so typical for your crowd to want to claim the blessings, but not the responsibilities that the blessings are contingent upon. You want the blessings just because you are a Christian. It doesn't work that way.

A Psalm of David. Bless the LORD, O my soul: and all that is within me, bless his holy name. Bless the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits: Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases; Who redeemeth thy life from destruction; who crowneth thee with lovingkindness and tender mercies; Who satisfieth thy mouth with good things; so that thy youth is renewed like the eagle's.

(Psalms 103:1-5)

About whom does the Psalmist write? The verses that follow tell us:

For as the heaven is high above the earth, so great is his mercy toward them that fear him.

(Psalms 103:11)

Like as a father pitieth his children, so the LORD pitieth them that fear him.

(Psalms 103:13)

But the mercy of the LORD is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children; To such as keep his covenant, and to those that remember his commandments to do them.

(Psalms 103:17-18)

Again we see blessing is connected to obedience.

O give thanks unto the LORD; call upon his name: make known his deeds among the people. Sing unto him, sing psalms unto him: talk ye of all his wondrous works. Glory ye in his holy name: let the heart of them rejoice that seek the LORD. Seek the LORD, and his strength: seek his face evermore. Remember his marvelous works that he hath done; his wonders, and the judgments of his mouth; O ye seed of Abraham his servant, ye children of Jacob his chosen. He is the LORD our God: his judgments are in all the earth. He hath remembered his covenant forever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations. Which covenant he made with Abraham, and his oath unto Isaac; And confirmed the same unto Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant:

(Psalms 105:1-10)

Again, this applies to Israel, not to the Church. It is not a universal statement, but is recalling God's faithfulness to the covenant he made with Abraham.

He sent his word, and healed them, and delivered them from their destructions. Oh that men would praise the LORD for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men!

(Psalms 107:20-21)

This is not promise to heal everyone. Nor is any mention made of an atonement.

I am not sure what you are getting out of Malachi 3:1. It talks about the messenger of the covenant, but that is pretty much it. Malachi 3:10 deals with be blessed, but again it is talking to national Israel.

As for the verses of Luke 1, you simply don't have anything there to claim.

You cannot just grab verses and "claim" them. There is nothing Scriptural about that. When studying Scripture you must look at who the author is speaking to. Promises that are made to Israel are to Israel.

1. Nothing in the passages you provided give us any indication of a universal blessing being pronounced

2. None of the passages you provided speak of atonement being the source of the blessings. For you to say that healing is in the atonement as a present day manifestation, you would have to demonstrate that healing was in the atonement in OT times. You can't. In EVERY single cases where a definitive promise of healing or prosperity is made, it is coupled with the condition of obedience.

I would also like to point out that healing is one of the spiritual gifts mentioned in 1 Cor. 12:9. If healing were in the atonement there would be no need for any such gift. If healing were in the atonement as a present day manifestation, it could only come through the same avenue through which salvation comes. You don't see any mention of the "gift of salvation." That would be heretical. It is salvation in the sense of justification/spiritual regeneration that comes through the blood of Jesus.

Furthermore, I have heard Kenneth Hagin speak on a number of occasions when I was in Tulsa, since my roommate played Hagin tapes all the time. According to Hagin, unforgiveness will block healing, and prosperity. How can that be if healing is based upon the blood of Jesus. It cannot be argued both ways. If healing is based upon the shed blood of Jesus, then it cannot based upon obedience as well.

I believe that healing is the atonement in the sense that we are promised a resurrected body free of disease, infirmity and any kind of malady. It is not guaranteed to us as a present day manifestation.

Healing is at the sole discretion of God. It is not for me to say why this or that person is not healed. I wish I knew why. I DO know that God, even if he does not always heal us, never leaves or forsakes us. It is sometimes in our weakness that God is made strong. He told Paul, "My grace is sufficient for thee. For my strength is made perfect in weakness." (2 Cor. 129) By that Christ meant that His strength is illustrated, or made manifest when God is able to accomplish his work through us in our weakness. It was in the weakness of Sarah's and Abraham's bodies that Isaac was born. It was in the weakness of the Children of Israel and Moses, that God's power was displayed. In the flesh, David did not stand a chance in front of Goliath, but God gave him the victory anyway. Paul was short, skinny, bald headed old man beaten tortured and pretty treated as the offscouring of the earth. He was always broke being led from one prison to another, never knowing where his next meal would come from, or when it come. He, by all outward appearances had no blessing in his life. Yet God worked through him to reach most of the known world at that time with gospel.

[Franky67]

Paul's thorn wasn't physical?

The Greek word that we get "thorn" from, and the context it's in, leaves absolutely no doubt that  it is physical.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Every other use of the phrase "thorn in the side, or eye", is used to denote an irritation, or like, pain in the neck so to speak.

Also Paul said it was a messenger of Satan. How could a messenger be a disease?

And how does a disease buffet one?

Some translations use the word "he", in referring to paul's thorn

[Franky67]

Your post re/ a person who discerned another who he thought was having a "Job" experience, and so refrained from praying for him so as not to go against God"s perceived will.

Is this right?

No, I meant this one:

Sorry for my lack of skills on the forum, I guess I need to practice.

My comments will be in red

OK, most of us would totally disagree with that elder who said that miracles are over.

The thing is, going to the opposite extreme is not the solution.

Remember how it mentions in the Gospels a couple of times Jesus couldnt perform many miracles in a couple of towns? Now, I know you would point out "their lack of faith." But also consider - didn't Jesus have enough faith to heal all He prayed for? So, why could not His faith compensate for their doubt?

don't know, just know He stressed faith all the time, that's why I do.

There's a verse in Proverbs that points out the value of balances. I believe this matter has a balance as well.

Agreed

Yes, the Lord does heal through us.

However, we in the Western world live in a society of doubt. Our society doesn't even want to acknowledge the existance of the spiritual realm, and those who do, even by "religious" folk, are considered cookoo.

It is good to believe. It is good to promote faith.

But please don't automatically assume the "if you have faith, ask and it will be given" is the heart of the Gospel message.

I believe faith is close to the heart of the Gospel message, you came close to quoting the words of Jesus Himself above.

Without faith it is impossible to please God.

When we read the words of Jesus, say for instance, in Mat. 17:20, where He said if we had even the faith of a mustard seed, we could move mountains, then I must believe He meant that, Tess thought I was being flippant when I used that or another example to illustrate that we all fall short of having the faith that God wants us to have.

God is supernatural, we are not.

When He says we are to call for the elders, and have them anoint with oil, and pray in faith and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and I do that, and the sick person isn't restored , then the only conclusion I can draw, is that the failure in on the part of flesh, not God.

I'm just saying we shouldn't create and believe all kinds of doctrins to explain that out come away. If James 5:14, 15 is true, then it's true. Is that out of balance?

Paul wasn't healed/delivered from his "weakness," whatever that was. Timothy wasn't healed from his stomach ailments. Your eyes aren't healed from whatever it is you need corrective lenses for.

As Tess pointed out, the Lord had a purpose in Paul's affliction.

Have you ever heard of Joni Erickson Tada? She became paralyzed from the neck down in a diving accident. Although she prayed for healing, it never came. But, the lord has used her mightily because of her paralysis. The ministry she has would have never existed if not for her being bound to a wheelchair and unable to use her hands.

God says He is Jehovah Rapha, if He is still all His other names, then He is still Jehovah Rapha.

Yes I have read about Joni, she is a brave young woman, and I admire her. I doubt if I would come close to having her courage.

I still must cling to God's  promises, if I look to the right, or left, and take my eyes off Jesus, I will sink beneath the waves.

That's what I mean, there is a balance.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Edited July 18, 2005 by Franky67

[nebula]

Umm, Franky -

If you are having a problem figuring out how to surround parts of quotes, would you at least highlight via "bold" or "color" your thoughts so that they are easy to find within the quote box?

Thanks!

[Franky67]

Franky, lets examine the Scriptures you use to promote perpetual good health being promised by God.

Genesis chapters 12,13,15,17,26,28, and 35 , EXodus 2:24, 23:25-31,

Deuteronomy 7:7-15, 8:17,18 28:2-14, Psalms 103:1-5, 17,18 105:1-10, 107:20,21, Malachi 3:1

Luke 1:46-56, 67-73

As to perpetual, Deuteronomy 28:1,2 says IF we obey, these blessings will overtake us. God's blessings are unlimited.

Abraham lived to a "good old age" as per God's Covenant promise.

Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will show thee: And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

(Genesis 12:1-3)

The word for bless in this passage, is "barakh" and means to kneel. It does not mean to kneel in submission or subjugation, but rather to enrich. It is not a promise of Divine health as used in this passage, but refers to something much greater. It is promise to both Abraham, and world that those who seek to do good to his descendents, will have the favor of God upon their lives. That may mean that God blesses you with healing or a good high paying job as a reward, but it does not guarantee it. God promises blessing, but does not promise the specific form that blessing will take.

God's blessings are never partial, Deut. 28 pretty well covers all of them.

And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward: For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed forever. And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered. Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it unto thee. Then Abram removed his tent, and came and dwelt in the plain of Mamre, which is in Hebron, and built there an altar unto the LORD.

(Genesis 13:14-18)

Again, this is a promise God made to Abraham and his flesh and blood descendents, and not one that you can take unto yourself. Also, there is no universal principle being established. Abraham was a rich man, but nowhere does the Bible promise riches equivalent to Abraham.

Galatians 3:14 says that in Christ, Abraham's blessing might come to the gentiles

Deut, 8:17,18 God is the one who gives the power to make wealth. This is not limited to Abraham, but it is for His seed

And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years; And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance. And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.

(Genesis 15:13-15)

Abraham lived to be an old man. You cannot apply this to yourself and claim it for your own. Have you not read Fox's book of martyrs? Have you not read how the apostles of our Lord were killed for their testimony of Christ? Even Paul was beheaded. Read 2 Corinthians 11 how that Paul was beaten, imprisoned, starved, stoned and left for dead. How many saints down through the ages had their lives taken prematurely as they spread the gospel throughout the world. Sorry, but again, there is no principle of long life being established for us in this passage.

And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly. And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying, As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee. And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee. And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God. And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.

(Genesis 17:1-9)

And the LORD appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of: Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I swore unto Abraham thy father; And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

(Genesis 26:2-5)

And the LORD appeared unto him the same night, and said, I am the God of Abraham thy father: fear not, for I am with thee, and will bless thee, and multiply thy seed for my servant Abraham's sake. And he built an altar there, and called upon the name of the LORD, and pitched his tent there: and there Isaac's servants digged a well.

(Genesis 26:24-25)

And, behold, the LORD stood above it, and said, I am the LORD God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed; And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed. And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of. And Jacob awaked out of his sleep, and he said, Surely the LORD is in this place; and I knew it not.

(Genesis 28:13-16)

The above passages establish the Land of Israel as the permanent possession of the children of Israel forever. They have nothing to do with perpetual health or healing or prosperity. They cannot be applied to believers today as the "Name it and Claim it" crowd applies them. These texts merely show the Jewish people's right to their historic homeland by Divine decree.

The fulness of God's covenant is forever

In the last three passages, God is simply passing on to Isaac what he promised to Abraham. God is honoring the Covenant he made with Abraham in chapter 15. There is no universal application being applied here.

Galatians ch 3, again

And God appeared unto Jacob again, when he came out of Padan-aram, and blessed him. And God said unto him, Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called his name Israel. And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins; And the land which I gave Abraham and Isaac, to thee I will give it, and to thy seed after thee will I give the land.

(Genesis 35:9-12)

And Isaac gave up the ghost, and died, and was gathered unto his people, being old and full of days: and his sons Esau and Jacob buried him.

(Genesis 35:29)

Isaac was Abraham's offspring, and as such He inherited the blessings

These are statements of biblical fact, and are not anything that you can apply to yourself. It is a tragic misuse of the Scriptures to teach others that since Abraham and Isaac died of old age, that we can expect the same thing. I have more to say about this sloppy unspiritual handling of the Scriptures at the end of this post.

If you are in Christ, you are Abraham's offspring , heirs according the promise

And God heard their groaning, and God remembered his covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob.

(Exodus 2:24)

And ye shall serve the LORD your God, and he shall bless thy bread, and thy water; and I will take sickness away from the midst of thee. There shall nothing cast their young, nor be barren, in thy land: the number of thy days I will fulfill. I will send my fear before thee, and will destroy all the people to whom thou shalt come, and I will make all thine enemies turn their backs unto thee. And I will send hornets before thee, which shall drive out the Hivite, the Canaanite, and the Hittite, from before thee. I will not drive them out from before thee in one year; lest the land become desolate, and the beast of the field multiply against thee. By little and little I will drive them out from before thee, until thou be increased, and inherit the land. And I will set thy bounds from the Red sea even unto the sea of the Philistines, and from the desert unto the river: for I will deliver the inhabitants of the land into your hand; and thou shalt drive them out before thee.

(Exodus 23:25-31)

These promises made were not based upon the covenant God made with Abraham. God already fulfilled what he said to Abraham when he brought the Children of Israel out of Egypt. The promises of Exodus 23 were conditional upon their obedience. God did not say the promises were their's because of the blood of the Lamb on the doorpost. He did not say the promises were theirs because of Abraham. The blessings in those promises were were contingent solely upon their compliance with God's laws, and their abstinence from any type of idolatry.

see concluding statemant

The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people: But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt. Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations; And repayeth them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face. Thou shalt therefore keep the commandments, and the statutes, and the judgments, which I command thee this day, to do them. Wherefore it shall come to pass, if ye hearken to these judgments, and keep, and do them, that the LORD thy God shall keep unto thee the covenant and the mercy which he swore unto thy fathers: And he will love thee, and bless thee, and multiply thee: he will also bless the fruit of thy womb, and the fruit of thy land, thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep, in the land which he swore unto thy fathers to give thee. Thou shalt be blessed above all people: there shall not be male or female barren among you, or among your cattle. And the LORD will take away from thee all sickness, and will put none of the evil diseases of Egypt, which thou knowest, upon thee; but will lay them upon all them that hate thee.

(Deuteronomy 7:7-15)

The night befere they left Egypt, they ate the flesh of the Passover lamb, and Psalms 105:37 says they left Egypt without even one feeble among them, More than one million, healed by the Passover Lamb, Jesus is our Passover Lamb, He said , "Eat my flesh, and drink My blood". In the communion passages, it says, many were sick and some died because they did not discern the body of Christ as broken for them.

Again, there is no mention of the blood of the lamb. If healing were connected with blood, then God would have made healing contingent upon blood in the OT. He would have said, because of the blood of the Lamb sacrificed at Passover, the Children of Israel are herby blessed with perpetual good health and each person will live to old age. God makes no such promise to them. In this case as in prior passages, healing and prosperity were conditional. They were conditional upon obedience.

In Christ, we are obedient, if we keep His commandments, to Love God, and to love our neighbor as ourselves.

And thou say in thine heart, My power and the might of mine hand hath gotten me this wealth. But thou shalt remember the LORD thy God: for it is he that giveth thee power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant which he swore unto thy fathers, as it is this day.

(Deuteronomy 8:17-18)

Well it interesting because this verse is predicated by the following verses in this chapter:

All the commandments which I command thee this day shall ye observe to do, that ye may live, and multiply, and go in and possess the land which the LORD swore unto your fathers.

(Deuteronomy 8:1)

Therefore thou shalt keep the commandments of the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to fear him.

(Deuteronomy 8:6)

Beware that thou forget not the LORD thy God, in not keeping his commandments, and his judgments, and his statutes, which I command thee this day:

(Deuteronomy 8:11)

And it is followed by these verses:

And it shall be, if thou do at all forget the LORD thy God, and walk after other gods, and serve them, and worship them, I testify against you this day that ye shall surely perish. As the nations which the LORD destroyeth before your face, so shall ye perish; because ye would not be obedient unto the voice of the LORD your God.

(Deuteronomy 8:19-20)

Again, blessing was conditional upon obedience.

We are obedient, if we are in Christ, and therefore we qualify.

As for Deut 28:2-14...

You conveniently left out verse 1

And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the LORD thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth:

(Deuteronomy 28:1)

We qualify in Christ

The blessings that follow are spoken to Israel as a nation and NOT to them as individuals. Furthermore it has nothing to do with atonement, as that is not mentioned as the basis for the blessings in verses 2-14. It is obedience. It is so typical for your crowd to want to claim the blessings, but not the responsibilities that the blessings are contingent upon. You want the blessings just because you are a Christian. It doesn't work that way. Galatians 3 says it does work that way.

A nation is what, if not individuals?

A Psalm of David. Bless the LORD, O my soul: and all that is within me, bless his holy name. Bless the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits: Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases; Who redeemeth thy life from destruction; who crowneth thee with lovingkindness and tender mercies; Who satisfieth thy mouth with good things; so that thy youth is renewed like the eagle's.

(Psalms 103:1-5)

About whom does the Psalmist write? The verses that follow tell us:

For as the heaven is high above the earth, so great is his mercy toward them that fear him.

(Psalms 103:11)

Like as a father pitieth his children, so the LORD pitieth them that fear him.

(Psalms 103:13)

But the mercy of the LORD is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children; To such as keep his covenant, and to those that remember his commandments to do them.

(Psalms 103:17-18)

Again we see blessing is connected to obedience. Gal. 3

O give thanks unto the LORD; call upon his name: make known his deeds among the people. Sing unto him, sing psalms unto him: talk ye of all his wondrous works. Glory ye in his holy name: let the heart of them rejoice that seek the LORD. Seek the LORD, and his strength: seek his face evermore. Remember his marvelous works that he hath done; his wonders, and the judgments of his mouth; O ye seed of Abraham his servant, ye children of Jacob his chosen. He is the LORD our God: his judgments are in all the earth. He hath remembered his covenant forever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations. Which covenant he made with Abraham, and his oath unto Isaac; And confirmed the same unto Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant:

(Psalms 105:1-10)

Again, this applies to Israel, not to the Church. It is not a universal statement, but is recalling God's faithfulness to the covenant he made with Abraham. Gal. 3

He sent his word, and healed them, and delivered them from their destructions. Oh that men would praise the LORD for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men!

(Psalms 107:20-21)

This is not promise to heal everyone. Nor is any mention made of an atonement.

In Christ' Atonement, He took our infirmities, ad carried away our diseases,

Matt. 8:17

I am not sure what you are getting out of Malachi 3:1. It talks about the messenger of the covenant, but that is pretty much it. Malachi 3:10 deals with be blessed, but again it is talking to national Israel.

Again, Jesus is our messenger of the covenant, He confirms the promises made to the fathers. romans 15:8,9

As for the verses of Luke 1, you simply don't have anything there to claim.

In Mary's Magnificat, she said God's mercy is upon generation after generation to those who fear Him.

Through Jesus, in her womb, God has given help to Israel, in rememberance of His Covenant, as He spoke to Abraham, and his offspring forever.

Then, also, as Mary, John the Baptist' father knew why Jesus came,

He said God has redeemed His people, and has raised up a horn of salvation. He has sent His Messiah to show mercy to our fathers, and to remember His Holy Covenant, the oath which He swore to Abraham, our father.

All through scripture, Jesus is the fulfillment of God's ultimate plan for His people.

You cannot just grab verses and "claim" them. There is nothing Scriptural about that. When studying Scripture you must look at who the author is speaking to. Promises that are made to Israel are to Israel. Are we not Grafted in?

1. Nothing in the passages you provided give us any indication of a universal blessing being pronounced

2. None of the passages you provided speak of atonement being the source of the blessings. For you to say that healing is in the atonement as a present day manifestation, you would have to demonstrate that healing was in the atonement in OT times. You can't. In EVERY single cases where a definitive promise of healing or prosperity is made, it is coupled with the condition of obedience.

I would also like to point out that healing is one of the spiritual gifts mentioned in 1 Cor. 12:9. If healing were in the atonement there would be no need for any such gift. If healing were in the atonement as a present day manifestation, it could only come through the same avenue through which salvation comes. You don't see any mention of the "gift of salvation." That would be heretical. It is salvation in the sense of justification/spiritual regeneration that comes through the blood of Jesus.

I believe the gift of healing is a special anointing to believers to pray for the sick, I don't believe it takes from God's promise to be our Jehovah Rapha.

Healing DOES come with salvation.

Furthermore, I have heard Kenneth Hagin speak on a number of occasions when I was in Tulsa, since my roommate played Hagin tapes all the time. According to Hagin, unforgiveness will block healing, and prosperity. How can that be if healing is based upon the blood of Jesus. It cannot be argued both ways. If healing is based upon the shed blood of Jesus, then it cannot based upon obedience as well.

Regarding unforgiveness, Matt. 6:15 says if we don't forgive, then we won't be forgiven. Is there such a thing as a saved person who God has not forgiven?

If healing is part of Salvation, then Healing, also is not manifested without forgiveness.

I believe that healing is the atonement in the sense that we are promised a resurrected body free of disease, infirmity and any kind of malady. It is not guaranteed to us as a present day manifestation.

Healing is at the sole discretion of God. It is not for me to say why this or that person is not healed. I wish I knew why. I DO know that God, even if he does not always heal us, never leaves or forsakes us. It is sometimes in our weakness that God is made strong. He told Paul, "My grace is sufficient for thee. For my strength is made perfect in weakness." (2 Cor. 129) By that Christ meant that His strength is illustrated, or made manifest when God is able to accomplish his work through us in our weakness. It was in the weakness of Sarah's and Abraham's bodies that Isaac was born. It was in the weakness of the Children of Israel and Moses, that God's power was displayed. In the flesh, David did not stand a chance in front of Goliath, but God gave him the victory anyway. Paul was short, skinny, bald headed old man beaten tortured and pretty treated as the offscouring of the earth. He was always broke being led from one prison to another, never knowing where his next meal would come from, or when it come. He, by all outward appearances had no blessing in his life. Yet God worked through him to reach most of the known world at that time with gospel.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Is God a respecter of persons?

I believe that God does nothing for His people with respect to blessings outside His Covenant, and since the cross, He does nothing except through Christ, the messenger of His covenant.

[Guest shiloh357]

Is God a respecter of persons?

I believe that God does nothing for His people with respect to blessings outside His Covenant, and since the cross, He does nothing except through Christ, the messenger of His covenant.

It has nothing to do with being a respecter of persons, Franky. God does as He pleases. There is a reason, for example, that God does not bless everyone with a a million dollars. In the hands of an irresponsible person, a million dollars is curse, not a blessing.

You work from the premise that all sickness is a curse of the law, and that is simply not true. There are cases where sickness is the product of irresponsible behavior such as overeating, sexual immorality, general neglect.

There are cases where sickness is itself a product of God's judgement. God struck the Egyptians with plagues including boils. He struck Miriam with leaprosy. He took the lives of Annanias and Saphira for lying to the Holy Spirit, He caused a magician to be blind for trying to buy the power of God from Peter. He caused Herod to be eaten alive by worms. There are other occasions where God used sickness and even caused death to accomplish His Will.

Sickness and disease, despite what Hagin Jr. & Co. say, does not fall under the curse of the law. The curse of the law is death. Jesus died to redeem us from the death the law demanded.

Sickness and disease, generally speaking, are a product of the fall of man, and we have not been redeemed from the fall. We will not experience the full redemption of the fall until we are clothed with God's glory.

One of the most unfortunated blunders of the "Name it Claim it" crowd is their inability to distinguish the difference between corporate blessings, and individual blessings. Many of the blessings that God has made were to Israel as a people, and not as individuals, and none of the theological gymnastics employed the word of faith movement will change it.

[nebula]

Sorry for my lack of skills on the forum, I guess I need to practice.

Not a problem!

**************************************************************

I'll just say this, Franky -

I've grown up under the influence of the Charasmatic movement, and I've heard many, many testimonies and stories. Have you ever heard the ones where the same people in the same faith can pray for healing over people in their group, and sometimes a person is healed and sometimes a person is not?

You see, the Lord uses suffering in our lives to work His character into us. This is Scriptural. Do you know the Scripture I refer to?

Believe it or not, sometimes the suffering the Lord has working in our lives is physical illness. I know this because I have heard many testimonies of this occuring.

This is the problem with the "name it claim it" crowd - they don't like suffering of any kind. They are such a "bless me" club. The Lord wants you healthy and rich and beautiful.... That's not the heart of the Gospel. If you seek the comfy life here on Earth, you will miss out on the treasures of Heaven.

[Guest Enchiridion]

I did not take the time to read all the pages of this thread, so if my question has already been answered, please accept my apologies and kindly direct me to the appropriate page. ~E

Franky, you keep saying that if a person isn't healed it is because he (or whomever prayed over him) didn't have enough faith.

Since our faith is a gift from God through the Holy Spirit, are you saying that God has given us a gift that is somehow lacking or inadequate?

Thank you,

Enchiridion

[Franky67]

I did not take the time to read all the pages of this thread, so if my question has already been answered, please accept my apologies and kindly direct me to the appropriate page. ~E

Franky, you keep saying that if a person isn't healed it is because he (or whomever prayed over him) didn't have enough faith.

Since our faith is a gift from God through the Holy Spirit, are you saying that God has given us a gift that is somehow lacking or inadequate?

Thank you,

Enchiridion

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I believe faith is believing the word of God in our heart as well as in our mind.

God says that without faith, it is impossible to please Him. Therefore, some of the responsibility for our faith must be ours.

[Franky67]

Sorry for my lack of skills on the forum, I guess I need to practice.

Not a problem!

**************************************************************

I'll just say this, Franky -

I've grown up under the influence of the Charasmatic movement, and I've heard many, many testimonies and stories. Have you ever heard the ones where the same people in the same faith can pray for healing over people in their group, and sometimes a person is healed and sometimes a person is not?

You see, the Lord uses suffering in our lives to work His character into us. This is Scriptural. Do you know the Scripture I refer to?

Believe it or not, sometimes the suffering the Lord has working in our lives is physical illness. I know this because I have heard many testimonies of this occuring.

This is the problem with the "name it claim it" crowd - they don't like suffering of any kind. They are such a "bless me" club. The Lord wants you healthy and rich and beautiful.... That's not the heart of the Gospel. If you seek the comfy life here on Earth, you will miss out on the treasures of Heaven.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi again, neb

All true, I just feel that I should err on the side of over believing rather than under believing.

If your last statement is true, and I think it is, I should be overendowed with treasure.

I do name His blessings, and claim them. ex, 'Abundant life"

I had all the suffering I want when I was a heathan.

God bless