The First Seal and the Horseman on the White Horse

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, not an echo said:

Hello iamlamad,

Concerning your opening statement, I am not seeing this rider as the Antichrist, but rather, as the spirit of the Antichrist.  Not sure if you caught this on what you quoted of me.  Hope you will look at what I said again.

As I see it, a key to understanding the timing of what we find in "chapters 4 & 5" revolves around the word "hereafter" in Revelation 4:1.  I kinda hear what you are saying in 1. and 2., but I don't see the conclusions you arrived at as necessary.  For me, it is easier to think in terms of Jesus' presence not being made immediately known to John until it was time.  The charge of the Seven Sealed Book being given to the Lamb was the main event of the event.  I'm thinking, "Yeah, He was there alright, and everyone else in Heaven KNEW IT!"   And, I can imagine everyone eagerly looking to see what John's expression would be---when He saw Him!

Concerning your 3., not sure where you are coming from here.  My first thought is that your take on this would be in conflict with the omnipresence of the Holy Spirit.

  It is a book about Christ's revealing, but you imagine God planned for Jesus not to show up in the throne room until the proper time. You are not far off, it IS all about TIME.

WHY would God show John a vision with Jesus  -  the main character in the book - missing, when we have over a dozen verses telling us He went to be at the right hand of the Father and Stephen SAW Him there?

In fact, why wasn't Jesus immediately seen?

God was showing John a vision of the throne room while Jesus was STILL ON EARTH. That is why John did not see Him.

Then we could ask WHY was Jesus not found in that first search? Again the answer is SO SIMPLE: at that time, Jesus had not yet overcome death and rose from the dead.

Again we could ask, why was the Holy Spirit still there? Again the answer is SO SIMPLE: at the time JOhn was seeing in the vision, Jesus had not yet ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down.

But then TIME PASSED, Jesus rose from the dead, and was immediately found worthy to take the book.

Then TIME PASSED.

Jesus sent Mary away and then ascended - and John got to see that moment of history in the vision. And Jesus IMMEDIATELY sent the Holy Spirit down. 

The very next thing Jesus did was take the book and begiin opening the seals. 

WHEN? About the same time He sent out the church.

John used the color white 17 times in Revelation. 16 times to mean righteousness, goodness, pureness or other Godly attributes. Some on this forum, who will remain unnamed imagine God would then use the color white ONCE to represent the Antichrist or the spirit of antichrist. NEVER HAPPEN!

The first seal is to represent the CHURCH sent out with the gospel. He rides alone, but the next three ride together to attempt to stop the advance of the church.

Remember, don't place an "only" in your imagination as you ponder the scriptures. God certainly left HImself free to include snippets of the past.

Edited March 21, 2022 by iamlamad

[not an echo]

On 3/21/2022 at 2:43 PM, iamlamad said:

On 3/21/2022 at 12:34 PM, not an echo said:

Hello iamlamad,

Concerning your opening statement, I am not seeing this rider as the Antichrist, but rather, as the spirit of the Antichrist.  Not sure if you caught this on what you quoted of me.  Hope you will look at what I said again.

As I see it, a key to understanding the timing of what we find in "chapters 4 & 5" revolves around the word "hereafter" in Revelation 4:1.  I kinda hear what you are saying in 1. and 2., but I don't see the conclusions you arrived at as necessary.  For me, it is easier to think in terms of Jesus' presence not being made immediately known to John until it was time.  The charge of the Seven Sealed Book being given to the Lamb was the main event of the event.  I'm thinking, "Yeah, He was there alright, and everyone else in Heaven KNEW IT!"   And, I can imagine everyone eagerly looking to see what John's expression would be---when He saw Him!

Concerning your 3., not sure where you are coming from here.  My first thought is that your take on this would be in conflict with the omnipresence of the Holy Spirit.

Those were not my questions.  God spoke to me in what sounded like an audible voice. I heard His voice and His words. 

“Son, I will ask you three questions about this passage of scripture. Until you can answer these questions correctly, you will never understand this vision.

 

1. “Why did John not immediately see Me at the right hand of the Father in chapter four? I ascended back into heaven years before John saw this vision. There are over a dozen verses showing that I went to be at the right hand of the Father. Why then did John not immediately see Me at the right hand of the Father?”

 

2. “John watched a search to find one worthy to open the seals—a search that ended in failure—and that is the reason John wept much: no man was found worthy. However, if you read ahead, you find that I was found worthy to break the seals. Why then was I not found in that first search?”

 3. “If you notice in chapter 4, the Holy Spirit was still in the throne room. I told the disciples that as soon as I ascended, I would send Him down. Why was the Holy Spirit still in the throne room in chapter 4?”

Those How would YOU answer these questions if God asked YOU? What did I do? I was "in the Spirit" and could do nothing. But after each question my spirit man inside said, "Lord, I cannot answer that question.

One comment about:

Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
and
Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

 In neither place did God or John include an "Only:" as in ONLY things that must be hereafter.

The truth is, John DID write of many things that were hereafter and many things STILL hereafter. But God also showed John things in the past.

YOu can either believe this or not. It is up to you.

I think God had a problem: He wanted to introduce John to the BOOK but chose to begin the vision while the book was still in the hand of the Father. In a vision of 95 AD, that would have been 60 some years into the PAST. It was history. God chose to show John a throne room with Jesus missing, and search for one worthy that ended in failure, and the Holy Spirit still in the throne room.

The Holy Spirit is probably beyond our understanding. It is written that He came upon Jesus "without measure" but at the same time was everywhere. I have no problem with God showing us in a vision the Holy Spirit as the 7 spirits of God in the throne room in chapter 4, and sent down in Chapter 5.

I do hope you attempt to answer His questions!

Concerning the hope you expressed in your last sentence, the following represents some of my thoughts.  The first question was...

 1. “Why did John not immediately see Me at the right hand of the Father in chapter four? I ascended back into heaven years before John saw this vision. There are over a dozen verses showing that I went to be at the right hand of the Father. Why then did John not immediately see Me at the right hand of the Father?”

If God was desirous (for any reason) for John to not immediately see the Lamb at His right hand while He was sitting on the throne, this would have been nothing for God to have arranged.  Just thinking in terms of what we can comprehend, we don't know how close in proximity to the throne the 24 seats of the 24 elders were, which were "round about the throne" (4:4).  The account says that "out of the throne proceeded lightnings" (4:5).  The account says that "before the throne there was a sea of glass" and that "in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts" (4:6).  We do not know how large everything was and what the various angles were from which John was situated in respect to what he was seeing.  Perhaps John's entrance into the throne room was from a slight angle, one that did not allow him to see what was to the immediate right of God on His throne.  I don't know, iamlamad.  What I do know is this:  I don't see what the problem would have been.  You make the statement, "God chose to show John a throne room with Jesus missing..."  Where do you get that?  Just because John doesn't immediately see the Lamb, that doesn't mean He was missing.  Seems like to me that when it was time, it would have been quite simple enough for the Lamb to merely move a little forward for John to see Him.  A little forward and then in full view, from the side of the throne that John was not able to see around from where he was.

It seems interesting to me that conversely, when John saw Jesus at the beginning of his being given The Revelation, he writes nothing concerning the throne or the Father.  Was Jesus "at the right hand of the Father" then?  If so, why no mention?  On my part, there is a sense in which I see Jesus as being "at the right hand of the Father" wherever elsewhere He may be at any given time, as a matter of position relative to His place in the Godhead as "the Way" for us to the Father.

The second question was...

 2. “John watched a search to find one worthy to open the seals—a search that ended in failure—and that is the reason John wept much: no man was found worthy. However, if you read ahead, you find that I was found worthy to break the seals. Why then was I not found in that first search?”

In the context of John just having seen Jesus before he received his invite to the throne room, I cannot imagine him drawing a blank concerning who would be worthy---a blank that brought him to tears (4:4).  Whether God was causing him to witness a search that was being made pre-resurrection in "32 AD" would not have made a bit of difference.  John was "The elder" (II John 1 & III John 1), a very mature apostle who had repeatedly saw the risen Christ and His ascension.  Under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, he had already written his Gospel account and 3 epistles.  And again, he had just seen Christ before he received the invite to "Come up hither..." (4:1).  John had just saw Jesus and "fell at His feet as dead" (1:17).  All things considered, the search shapes up to me to have been known to be for a man---any man---not born of a virgin.  And, none of all the billions of these---not one---was found worthy of the honor.  Not even John.  John would have known full well that Jesus was very much worthy, both before the search was made and before The Lamb came forth.  But, The Lamb was in a category all by Himself.

The third question was...

 3. “If you notice in chapter 4, the Holy Spirit was still in the throne room. I told the disciples that as soon as I ascended, I would send Him down. Why was the Holy Spirit still in the throne room in chapter 4?”

Similar to an earlier comment I made to you related to this question, my answer would be that the Holy Spirit is omnipresent.  Are you thinking that the Holy Spirit is not presently in Heaven as well as in the heart of all believers?  When someone is born-again, from whence does the Holy Spirit come to enter into his or her heart? 

Iamlamad, I would not call into question if God spoke to you, or even if He gave you three questions.  But, I am wondering if you heard Him correctly.  Men and women not born of a virgin often mistake what God says.

[iamlamad]

11 hours ago, not an echo said:

Concerning the hope you expressed in your last sentence, the following represents some of my thoughts.  The first question was...

 1. “Why did John not immediately see Me at the right hand of the Father in chapter four? I ascended back into heaven years before John saw this vision. There are over a dozen verses showing that I went to be at the right hand of the Father. Why then did John not immediately see Me at the right hand of the Father?”

If God was desirous (for any reason) for John to not immediately see the Lamb at His right hand while He was sitting on the throne, this would have been nothing for God to have arranged.  Just thinking in terms of what we can comprehend, we don't know how close in proximity to the throne the 24 seats of the 24 elders were, which were "round about the throne" (4:4).  The account says that "out of the throne proceeded lightnings" (4:5).  The account says that "before the throne there was a sea of glass" and that "in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts" (4:6).  We do not know how large everything was and what the various angles were from which John was situated in respect to what he was seeing.  Perhaps John's entrance into the throne room was from a slight angle, one that did not allow him to see what was to the immediate right of God on His throne.  I don't know, iamlamad.  What I do know is this:  I don't see what the problem would have been.  You make the statement, "God chose to show John a throne room with Jesus missing..."  Where do you get that?  Just because John doesn't immediately see the Lamb, that doesn't mean He was missing.  Seems like to me that when it was time, it would have been quite simple enough for the Lamb to merely move a little forward for John to see Him.  A little forward and then in full view, from the side of the throne that John was not able to see around from where he was.

It seems interesting to me that conversely, when John saw Jesus at the beginning of his being given The Revelation, he writes nothing concerning the throne or the Father.  Was Jesus "at the right hand of the Father" then?  If so, why no mention?  On my part, there is a sense in which I see Jesus as being "at the right hand of the Father" wherever elsewhere He may be at any given time, as a matter of position relative to His place in the Godhead as "the Way" for us to the Father.

The second question was...

 2. “John watched a search to find one worthy to open the seals—a search that ended in failure—and that is the reason John wept much: no man was found worthy. However, if you read ahead, you find that I was found worthy to break the seals. Why then was I not found in that first search?”

In the context of John just having seen Jesus before he received his invite to the throne room, I cannot imagine him drawing a blank concerning who would be worthy---a blank that brought him to tears (4:4).  Whether God was causing him to witness a search that was being made pre-resurrection in "32 AD" would not have made a bit of difference.  John was "The elder" (II John 1 & III John 1), a very mature apostle who had repeatedly saw the risen Christ and His ascension.  Under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, he had already written his Gospel account and 3 epistles.  And again, he had just seen Christ before he received the invite to "Come up hither..." (4:1).  John had just saw Jesus and "fell at His feet as dead" (1:17).  All things considered, the search shapes up to me to have been known to be for a man---any man---not born of a virgin.  And, none of all the billions of these---not one---was found worthy of the honor.  Not even John.  John would have known full well that Jesus was very much worthy, both before the search was made and before The Lamb came forth.  But, The Lamb was in a category all by Himself.

The third question was...

 3. “If you notice in chapter 4, the Holy Spirit was still in the throne room. I told the disciples that as soon as I ascended, I would send Him down. Why was the Holy Spirit still in the throne room in chapter 4?”

Similar to an earlier comment I made to you related to this question, my answer would be that the Holy Spirit is omnipresent.  Are you thinking that the Holy Spirit is not presently in Heaven as well as in the heart of all believers?  When someone is born-again, from whence does the Holy Spirit come to enter into his or her heart? 

Iamlamad, I would not call into question if God spoke to you, or even if He gave you three questions.  But, I am wondering if you heard Him correctly.  Men and women not born of a virgin often mistake what God says.

This was not imagination. It was not a vision - although I was in the Spirit.  I have zero doubt I heard Him correctly.

I guess I have only one question:  I gave the answers He gave to me. I find his answers fit what is written exactly, no stretching, and no twisting needed. 

God wanted to show John, in a vision about 60 years after the fact, the throne room while the book was still in the hand of the Father. Perhaps this was to show the heavenly origin of the book. 

The question is, HOW was God going to show John this was a vision of the past? I think God did it perfectly.   A vision of the throne room, with the main Character of the book missing...a search for one worthy to take the book and open the seals thereof that failed, and the Holy Spirit still in the throne room. Then after time passed, Jesus ascended, and sent the Holy Spirit down. This is only an abbreviated picture of Jesus' life on earth, His death and resurrection and finally He ascension.

If you choose to believe something different, It will not matter to me in the least. After all, God chose to ask those questions of me. I do appreciate your effort in answering the questions. I have asked many people to, and most have not. 

Of course, the Holy Spirit is everywhere at the same time, but that includes being in one place. But as the third person of the Triune Godhead, He ascended into the throne room with Jesus, and was immediately sent down.  He was in the throne room until Jesus was baptized, then came down and anointed Jesus "without measure." When Jesus died, He went back to heaven. That is probably the time frame of JOhn's first look into the throne room: Jesus NOT there but the Holy Spirit was there. You see, your argument, although correct, does not explain how John saw the Holy Spirit in the throne room.  Was He REALLY there? He was in the vision and that is what God wants us to see and know. 

The most important thing in all of this is TIME and TIMING:  WHEN did Jesus ascend and send the Holy Spirit down? It was before the church was sent out with the Gospel. I cannot find any time passing in the last verses of chapter 5 to the opening of the first seal. Therefore I have to believe that as soon as Jesus got the book into His hands, He began opening the seals.

Since this book has MUCH to do with Satan being cast down and the kingdoms of the world being given to Jesus, did you ever wonder WHEN this book with the seven seals was created? John does not tell us. I suspect it was created before God placed Adam in the garden. It could have been just after. This is only my guess.

I have NO DOUBT it is a legal document created in heaven. I believe it would have been illegal for God to send out the church without the first seal being opened first. The opening of a seal allows the events written there to become legal to unfold.

[iamlamad]

On 4/2/2020 at 11:09 PM, not an echo said:

According to the opening verses of The Revelation, it is quite evident that John was shown things that were "at hand" to begin to take place (Rev. 1:1-3).  The Revelation is his record of what he saw, and he was told to send this, with specific messages, to the seven churches that were in Asia (Rev. 1:10-11), which he did (Rev. 2-3).  Just before he was shown what would be taking place, he is called up "in the spirit" to Heaven and allowed to behold God on His throne (Rev. 4).  John then tells of a book he saw in God's right hand, which was sealed with seven seals, and of an event that takes place in which the Lamb (Jesus Christ) alone is found worthy to have charge of it (Rev. 5).  The beginning of what was about to start taking place related to the opening of the seals of the Seven Sealed Book, a book that could rightly be entitled THE DAY OF THE LORD.  The seals of this book pertain to the post-apostolic era of the Church and what is slated to take place before the Day of the Lord will begin (Rev. 6-7).

In harmony with Scripture, and testified to by history, Christ opened the first four seals late in the first century, granting to Satan the certain liberties that he (Satan) has been given to continue the plying of his craft into and during the era of the Church, also known as the Church Age.  Satan would have absolutely no liberties otherwise.  These liberties are exercised by his henchmen, the four horsemen of the first four seals, and these horsemen have been riding down through the corridors of Church history even unto our day, doing just what they have been insatiably bent on doing.  Their activity is responsible for the things Jesus warned of in the opening of His Olivet Discourse, things that have characterized every century of the Christian era.  Let's look a little closer at the opening of the 1st Seal and its horseman.  Consider, from Revelation 6:

https://worthychristianforumscore-h45go6maxh5rpepgu.netdna-ssl.com/uploads/monthly_2020_04/1952707776_picture6blackonwhite.png.dc4a88e3d5a16e9c06336e9f93ea7fc0.png 1   And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.

  2   And I saw, and behold a white horse:  and he that sat on him had a bow;  and a crown was given unto him:  and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

A prevailing interpretation of this rider on the white horse is that he is a counterfeit and a deceiver or a false Christ.  Some believe this to be the Antichrist.  Thinking along these lines, it should not be too hard to envision this rider being akin to "that spirit of antichrist" that John spoke of in I John 4:1-3, of which he says, "and even now already is it in the world."  Paul spoke similarly to the Thessalonians, saying, "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work" (II Thess. 2:7a).

Now, notice Jesus' Olivet Discourse.  He began by informing His disciples (the pillars of His Church) that there would be deceivers and false Christs who would come.  From Matthew's account, in chapter 24, we read:

  4   And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

  5   For many shall come in My name, saying, I am Christ;  and shall deceive many.

Jesus had warned His disciples of this several decades prior to John's receiving of The Revelation.  Taking into account these things with what history bears testimony to, it can be rightly suspected, and also concluded, that the underlying influence in the lives of the many deceivers and false Christ's who have come on the scene since the time of the apostles has been the horseman of the 1st Seal.  This being the case, it is not difficult to trace his activity down through the corridors of Church history to this present time as the bow wielding force behind the movements that have arisen to conquer the truth with arrows of deception.  Isn't it mind-boggling how many differing religious movements and distortions of the truth there are in the world today?

Consider this:  How long has Christ's Bride warned of deceivers and false Christs and tried to teach the truth and sound doctrine, only to have so many of Her efforts rode roughshod  over by something?  Does it not seem to you that something out there is constantly on a bend to stamp out anything of truth and virtue that has to do with the true Christian faith?  We all know that ultimately, that something is Satan.  But, with the opening of the 1st Seal, we have this liberty of his revealed as being exercised by one of his henchmen, the rider on the white horse.  While it has not been necessary for the Bride to realize this in order to serve Her Bridegroom, I do believe it is necessary for a correct understanding of His Revelation to Her.  I think of the song we have so long sung, "We'll work, till Jesus comes, we'll work, till Jesus comes, we'll work, till Jesus comes, and we'll be gathered home."  We must continue Christ's work until He comes to gather us home.  Be assured, this horseman is going to keep trampling on the truth, recognized or not.

Following are threads that I have concerning the other seals:

The Second Seal and the Horseman on the Red Horse (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/250725-the-second-seal-and-the-horseman-on-the-red-horse/).

The Third Seal and the Horseman on the Black Horse (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/250748-the-third-seal-and-the-horseman-on-the-black-horse/).

The Fourth Seal and the Horseman on the Pale Horse (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/250832-the-fourth-seal-and-the-horseman-on-the-pale-horse/).

The Fifth Seal and the Cry of the Martyrs (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/250955-the-fifth-seal-and-the-cry-of-the-martyrs/).

Also, these threads concern A Totally Different Pre-Daniel's 70th Week Rapture Interpretation that I have, where information concerning the other seals can be found.  Here is that link: (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/253935-a-totally-different-pre-daniels-70th-week-rapture-interpretation/).

 

NOT "post apostolic." Jesus got the book (probably NOT "the Day of the Lord"...but more likely "Daniel's 70th Week" or "Adam's Earth Lease") as soon as He ascended back into heaven, right after telling Mary not to touch Him for He had not yet ascended. I can find NO TIME written between when Jesus took the book and when He opened the first seal. Therefore I place the timing of the first seal with:

Mat. 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 

I am very impressed. You have done a good job with John's chronology here.

Did you notice that the Red horse, the Black horse, and the Pale horse ride together, but the white horse rides alone?

I believe the first seal is to represent the CHURCH taking the GOSPEL to the nations.

[not an echo]

On 3/27/2022 at 11:03 AM, iamlamad said:

On 3/26/2022 at 11:01 PM, not an echo said:

Concerning the hope you expressed in your last sentence, the following represents some of my thoughts.  The first question was...

 1. “Why did John not immediately see Me at the right hand of the Father in chapter four? I ascended back into heaven years before John saw this vision. There are over a dozen verses showing that I went to be at the right hand of the Father. Why then did John not immediately see Me at the right hand of the Father?”

If God was desirous (for any reason) for John to not immediately see the Lamb at His right hand while He was sitting on the throne, this would have been nothing for God to have arranged.  Just thinking in terms of what we can comprehend, we don't know how close in proximity to the throne the 24 seats of the 24 elders were, which were "round about the throne" (4:4).  The account says that "out of the throne proceeded lightnings" (4:5).  The account says that "before the throne there was a sea of glass" and that "in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts" (4:6).  We do not know how large everything was and what the various angles were from which John was situated in respect to what he was seeing.  Perhaps John's entrance into the throne room was from a slight angle, one that did not allow him to see what was to the immediate right of God on His throne.  I don't know, iamlamad.  What I do know is this:  I don't see what the problem would have been.  You make the statement, "God chose to show John a throne room with Jesus missing..."  Where do you get that?  Just because John doesn't immediately see the Lamb, that doesn't mean He was missing.  Seems like to me that when it was time, it would have been quite simple enough for the Lamb to merely move a little forward for John to see Him.  A little forward and then in full view, from the side of the throne that John was not able to see around from where he was.

It seems interesting to me that conversely, when John saw Jesus at the beginning of his being given The Revelation, he writes nothing concerning the throne or the Father.  Was Jesus "at the right hand of the Father" then?  If so, why no mention?  On my part, there is a sense in which I see Jesus as being "at the right hand of the Father" wherever elsewhere He may be at any given time, as a matter of position relative to His place in the Godhead as "the Way" for us to the Father.

The second question was...

 2. “John watched a search to find one worthy to open the seals—a search that ended in failure—and that is the reason John wept much: no man was found worthy. However, if you read ahead, you find that I was found worthy to break the seals. Why then was I not found in that first search?”

In the context of John just having seen Jesus before he received his invite to the throne room, I cannot imagine him drawing a blank concerning who would be worthy---a blank that brought him to tears (4:4).  Whether God was causing him to witness a search that was being made pre-resurrection in "32 AD" would not have made a bit of difference.  John was "The elder" (II John 1 & III John 1), a very mature apostle who had repeatedly saw the risen Christ and His ascension.  Under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, he had already written his Gospel account and 3 epistles.  And again, he had just seen Christ before he received the invite to "Come up hither..." (4:1).  John had just saw Jesus and "fell at His feet as dead" (1:17).  All things considered, the search shapes up to me to have been known to be for a man---any man---not born of a virgin.  And, none of all the billions of these---not one---was found worthy of the honor.  Not even John.  John would have known full well that Jesus was very much worthy, both before the search was made and before The Lamb came forth.  But, The Lamb was in a category all by Himself.

The third question was...

 3. “If you notice in chapter 4, the Holy Spirit was still in the throne room. I told the disciples that as soon as I ascended, I would send Him down. Why was the Holy Spirit still in the throne room in chapter 4?”

Similar to an earlier comment I made to you related to this question, my answer would be that the Holy Spirit is omnipresent.  Are you thinking that the Holy Spirit is not presently in Heaven as well as in the heart of all believers?  When someone is born-again, from whence does the Holy Spirit come to enter into his or her heart? 

Iamlamad, I would not call into question if God spoke to you, or even if He gave you three questions.  But, I am wondering if you heard Him correctly.  Men and women not born of a virgin often mistake what God says.

This was not imagination. It was not a vision - although I was in the Spirit.  I have zero doubt I heard Him correctly.

I guess I have only one question:  I gave the answers He gave to me. I find his answers fit what is written exactly, no stretching, and no twisting needed. 

God wanted to show John, in a vision about 60 years after the fact, the throne room while the book was still in the hand of the Father. Perhaps this was to show the heavenly origin of the book. 

The question is, HOW was God going to show John this was a vision of the past? I think God did it perfectly.   A vision of the throne room, with the main Character of the book missing...a search for one worthy to take the book and open the seals thereof that failed, and the Holy Spirit still in the throne room. Then after time passed, Jesus ascended, and sent the Holy Spirit down. This is only an abbreviated picture of Jesus' life on earth, His death and resurrection and finally He ascension.

If you choose to believe something different, It will not matter to me in the least. After all, God chose to ask those questions of me. I do appreciate your effort in answering the questions. I have asked many people to, and most have not. 

Of course, the Holy Spirit is everywhere at the same time, but that includes being in one place. But as the third person of the Triune Godhead, He ascended into the throne room with Jesus, and was immediately sent down.  He was in the throne room until Jesus was baptized, then came down and anointed Jesus "without measure." When Jesus died, He went back to heaven. That is probably the time frame of JOhn's first look into the throne room: Jesus NOT there but the Holy Spirit was there. You see, your argument, although correct, does not explain how John saw the Holy Spirit in the throne room.  Was He REALLY there? He was in the vision and that is what God wants us to see and know. 

The most important thing in all of this is TIME and TIMING:  WHEN did Jesus ascend and send the Holy Spirit down? It was before the church was sent out with the Gospel. I cannot find any time passing in the last verses of chapter 5 to the opening of the first seal. Therefore I have to believe that as soon as Jesus got the book into His hands, He began opening the seals.

Since this book has MUCH to do with Satan being cast down and the kingdoms of the world being given to Jesus, did you ever wonder WHEN this book with the seven seals was created? John does not tell us. I suspect it was created before God placed Adam in the garden. It could have been just after. This is only my guess.

I have NO DOUBT it is a legal document created in heaven. I believe it would have been illegal for God to send out the church without the first seal being opened first. The opening of a seal allows the events written there to become legal to unfold.

Hello iamlamad,

It has been about three months since I posted here, and I noticed that I had failed to reply to your next to last post (March 27).  After reading it afresh, my thoughts continued to resonate with me.  I did, however, feel that it might be helpful if I repeated the questions you said God asked of you and to respond similar as I did before, with some additional thoughts.  The first question was...

 1. “Why did John not immediately see Me at the right hand of the Father in chapter four? I ascended back into heaven years before John saw this vision. There are over a dozen verses showing that I went to be at the right hand of the Father. Why then did John not immediately see Me at the right hand of the Father?”

The first part of my original response will continue to hold valid possibilities.

You made the statement, "God chose to show John a throne room with Jesus missing.  My first thought was, and still is this:  "Just because John doesn't immediately see the Lamb, that doesn't mean He is missing."

But further, when John saw Jesus at the beginning of his being given The Revelation, he writes nothing concerning the throne of the Father (Rev. 1:9-20).  Was Jesus "at the right hand of the Father" then?  If so, there is no mention there either.  There is a sense in which Jesus will forever be at the right hand of the Father---wherever elsewhere He may also be at any given time---as a matter of position relative to His place in the Godhead.  Kinda like He is in my heart and your heart and the hearts of all of God's children---and all the while still at the right hand of the Father.

The second question was...

 2. “John watched a search to find one worthy to open the seals—a search that ended in failure—and that is the reason John wept much: no man was found worthy. However, if you read ahead, you find that I was found worthy to break the seals. Why then was I not found in that first search?”

Again, in the context of John just having seen Jesus before he received his invite to the throne room, I cannot imagine him drawing a blank concerning who would be worthy---a blank that would bring him to tears (4:4).  What difference would it have made whether God was causing him to witness a search that was being made pre-resurrection in "32 AD"?  John had repeatedly saw the risen Christ and witnessed His ascension.  He had already written his Gospel account and three epistles.  And again, he had just seen Christ before he received his invite into the throne room and had "fell at His feet as dead" (1:17).  All things considered, the search was known by everyone to be for a common man.  And, none of all the billions "in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth" (Rev. 5:3)---not one---was found worthy of the honor.  Not even John.  John would have known full well that Jesus was very much worthy, both before the search was made and before The Lamb came forth.  But, The Lamb was in a category all by Himself.

And, the third question was...

 3. “If you notice in chapter 4, the Holy Spirit was still in the throne room. I told the disciples that as soon as I ascended, I would send Him down. Why was the Holy Spirit still in the throne room in chapter 4?”

Once again, my answer would be that the Holy Spirit is omnipresent.  My position is that Christ's Holy Spirit is even now presently in Heaven, as well as in the heart of all God's children.

I'm not meaning to be argumentative.  Really, it is all very interesting to think about and discuss. : )  "For now we see through a glass darkly..." (I Cor. 13:12).  Won't it be grand when we enter the Portals of Glory and get to see what all John got to see---and more!  Whew!!  And that's gonna be our eternal home!!!

[not an echo]

On 6/24/2022 at 7:28 AM, iamlamad said:

On 4/2/2020 at 11:09 PM, not an echo said:

According to the opening verses of The Revelation, it is quite evident that John was shown things that were "at hand" to begin to take place (Rev. 1:1-3).  The Revelation is his record of what he saw, and he was told to send this, with specific messages, to the seven churches that were in Asia (Rev. 1:10-11), which he did (Rev. 2-3).  Just before he was shown what would be taking place, he is called up "in the spirit" to Heaven and allowed to behold God on His throne (Rev. 4).  John then tells of a book he saw in God's right hand, which was sealed with seven seals, and of an event that takes place in which the Lamb (Jesus Christ) alone is found worthy to have charge of it (Rev. 5).  The beginning of what was about to start taking place related to the opening of the seals of the Seven Sealed Book, a book that could rightly be entitled THE DAY OF THE LORD.  The seals of this book pertain to the post-apostolic era of the Church and what is slated to take place before the Day of the Lord will begin (Rev. 6-7).

In harmony with Scripture, and testified to by history, Christ opened the first four seals late in the first century, granting to Satan the certain liberties that he (Satan) has been given to continue the plying of his craft into and during the era of the Church, also known as the Church Age.  Satan would have absolutely no liberties otherwise.  These liberties are exercised by his henchmen, the four horsemen of the first four seals, and these horsemen have been riding down through the corridors of Church history even unto our day, doing just what they have been insatiably bent on doing.  Their activity is responsible for the things Jesus warned of in the opening of His Olivet Discourse, things that have characterized every century of the Christian era.  Let's look a little closer at the opening of the 1st Seal and its horseman.  Consider, from Revelation 6:

https://worthychristianforumscore-h45go6maxh5rpepgu.netdna-ssl.com/uploads/monthly_2020_04/1952707776_picture6blackonwhite.png.dc4a88e3d5a16e9c06336e9f93ea7fc0.png 1   And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.

  2   And I saw, and behold a white horse:  and he that sat on him had a bow;  and a crown was given unto him:  and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

A prevailing interpretation of this rider on the white horse is that he is a counterfeit and a deceiver or a false Christ.  Some believe this to be the Antichrist.  Thinking along these lines, it should not be too hard to envision this rider being akin to "that spirit of antichrist" that John spoke of in I John 4:1-3, of which he says, "and even now already is it in the world."  Paul spoke similarly to the Thessalonians, saying, "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work" (II Thess. 2:7a).

Now, notice Jesus' Olivet Discourse.  He began by informing His disciples (the pillars of His Church) that there would be deceivers and false Christs who would come.  From Matthew's account, in chapter 24, we read:

  4   And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

  5   For many shall come in My name, saying, I am Christ;  and shall deceive many.

Jesus had warned His disciples of this several decades prior to John's receiving of The Revelation.  Taking into account these things with what history bears testimony to, it can be rightly suspected, and also concluded, that the underlying influence in the lives of the many deceivers and false Christ's who have come on the scene since the time of the apostles has been the horseman of the 1st Seal.  This being the case, it is not difficult to trace his activity down through the corridors of Church history to this present time as the bow wielding force behind the movements that have arisen to conquer the truth with arrows of deception.  Isn't it mind-boggling how many differing religious movements and distortions of the truth there are in the world today?

Consider this:  How long has Christ's Bride warned of deceivers and false Christs and tried to teach the truth and sound doctrine, only to have so many of Her efforts rode roughshod  over by something?  Does it not seem to you that something out there is constantly on a bend to stamp out anything of truth and virtue that has to do with the true Christian faith?  We all know that ultimately, that something is Satan.  But, with the opening of the 1st Seal, we have this liberty of his revealed as being exercised by one of his henchmen, the rider on the white horse.  While it has not been necessary for the Bride to realize this in order to serve Her Bridegroom, I do believe it is necessary for a correct understanding of His Revelation to Her.  I think of the song we have so long sung, "We'll work, till Jesus comes, we'll work, till Jesus comes, we'll work, till Jesus comes, and we'll be gathered home."  We must continue Christ's work until He comes to gather us home.  Be assured, this horseman is going to keep trampling on the truth, recognized or not.

Following are threads that I have concerning the other seals:

The Second Seal and the Horseman on the Red Horse (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/250725-the-second-seal-and-the-horseman-on-the-red-horse/).

The Third Seal and the Horseman on the Black Horse (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/250748-the-third-seal-and-the-horseman-on-the-black-horse/).

The Fourth Seal and the Horseman on the Pale Horse (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/250832-the-fourth-seal-and-the-horseman-on-the-pale-horse/).

The Fifth Seal and the Cry of the Martyrs (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/250955-the-fifth-seal-and-the-cry-of-the-martyrs/).

Also, these threads concern A Totally Different Pre-Daniel's 70th Week Rapture Interpretation that I have, where information concerning the other seals can be found.  Here is that link: (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/253935-a-totally-different-pre-daniels-70th-week-rapture-interpretation/).

 

NOT "post apostolic." Jesus got the book (probably NOT "the Day of the Lord"...but more likely "Daniel's 70th Week" or "Adam's Earth Lease") as soon as He ascended back into heaven, right after telling Mary not to touch Him for He had not yet ascended. I can find NO TIME written between when Jesus took the book and when He opened the first seal. Therefore I place the timing of the first seal with:

Mat. 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 

I am very impressed. You have done a good job with John's chronology here.

Did you notice that the Red horse, the Black horse, and the Pale horse ride together, but the white horse rides alone?

Concerning your last question, how do you come to this conclusion?

On 6/24/2022 at 7:28 AM, iamlamad said:

I believe the first seal is to represent the CHURCH taking the GOSPEL to the nations.

I cannot agree that "the first seal is to represent the CHURCH taking the GOSPEL to the nations."  As I just recently replied to this belief of yours in one of my other threads, I copied and pasted that reply here.  The reason I cannot agree is this:  The manner in which the rider on the white horse goes forth has combative connotations, whereas the message of the Gospel is conciliatory.  With the message of the Gospel, we are not to be military minded, but missionary minded.  And, for spiritual battle, we have been issued "the sword of the Spirit, which is the Word of God" (Eph. 6:17).  God has not issued us a "bow" (Rev. 6:2).  Moreover, there are four solid parallels between the opening of Jesus' Olivet Discourse and the first four seals, one being what Jesus said in Matthew 24:4-5 (cp. Mk. 13:5-6 and Lk. 21:8) and how this parallels with the rider on the white horse of the 1st Seal.

I hope you will look afresh at my opening post for this thread.

[iamlamad]

On 7/2/2022 at 12:43 AM, not an echo said:

"The red, the black and the pale horses and riders ride together..."

Concerning your last question, how do you come to this conclusion?

Very simple, straight from John's words.

8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

I asked God who "them" was. He said "read the verse again." I read it again and again ask, who is them? He said read it again. This went on several times. Finally I got a clue that the answer to my question was IN the verse.

"power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword"

The red horse was given a sword.

"power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with... hunger"

The black horse was given power to cause famines or hunger.

"power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with... death"

The pale horse was titled "death."

These there are together and together are limited in their theater of operation to only 1/4 of the earth.

If you research, you will find that the Greek word translated "conquering" and "to conquer" in EVERY OTHER place in the KJV was translated as "overcome."

Would the church have to  "overcome" to spread the gospel? Since Satan is the god of this world, you know this is true. If we look at how the devil was always attacking Paul and his work taking the gospel to the gentiles, we can see that Paul had to overcome to take the gospel to new places.

Why would God show John a vision of the throne room with the main Character of his book MISSING? We have over a dozen verses telling us Jesus went to sit at the right hand of the Father. Stephen SAW Him there. Yet, in this part of the vision, Jesus was not there. WHY would God do this unless He had a purpose in it?

Why would God allow John to watch a search for one worthy to take the book  - but it end up in failure? What was God's purpose?

Why would God show John that the Holy Spirit was there in the throne room in chapter 4, but arriving in the throne room with Jesus and then immediately sent down?

Jesus showed me the answer in Rev. chapter 12, showing me that the first 5 verses of chapter 12 were a "history lesson" (HIS words, not mine) to John.

Therefore I know the real reason why God showed John a vision of the throne room with Jesus not seen at the right hand of the Father: God was showing John the throne room while Jesus was UNDER the earth. Of course He was not in the throne room then.

That is why the Holy Spirit was there in the throne room: Jesus had not ascended to send Him down. Jesus had the Holy Spirit without measure - right up to the time Jesus cried out, "why have you forsaken me?" God had to turn His back," so to speak for a moment, while He put the sins of the world upon Him. We can guess that the Holy Spirit returned to heaven then, as seen at the moment John saw the throne room in the vision.

But when Jesus arose, the Holy Spirit came again without measure, and was upon Jesus as He ascended, as shown in chapter 5 - and was immediately sent down.

Why was "no man found" in that search John watched that ended in failure to find anyone? If we follow the context and chronology, Jesus had not yet risen from the dead in the first verses of chapter 5. But John was told that someone prevailed to become worthy. That was when Jesus rose from the dead. 

The next thing John saw was Jesus ascending back to the throne room with the Holy Spirit, and the Spirit then sent down. 

Note carefully: the first thing Jesus did upon ascending was to take the book and begin opening the seals.  The first seal then was opened about the time Jesus ascended, after telling Mary not to touch Him for He had not yet ascended.

[not an echo]

On 4/10/2021 at 4:42 AM, Diaste said:

On 4/6/2021 at 10:10 PM, not an echo said:

Now Diaste, I could say the same thing about your post-trib persuasion, but what kind of weight would that kind of statement carry?  Aw, shucks, I get it, you're just being humorous!

The problem is this:

Matt 24

Immediately after the tribulation of those days:

‘The sun will be darkened,

and the moon will not give its light;

the stars will fall from the sky,

and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.b’

30At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven,c and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.d 31And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

2 Thess 2

Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed.

Both of these passages have clear timing.

After the GT and after the A of D. 

Hello Diaste,

I was doing some long overdue reviewing and was going to make a reply to iamlamad when I noticed that I had not replied to several posts of yours---from well over a year ago!  My apologies.

Concerning the concluding statements you make with your last two sentences, when understood according to what is commonly thought, I understand why you would say what you do.  But, my position is that what is commonly thought needs to be rethought.

Of your first reference, from Matthew 24, when the "tribulation" Jesus speaks of in verse 29 is interpreted to be "the GT" (as you understand it), then it can be understood where you are coming from.  But, is the tribulation Jesus is here speaking of "the GT"?  Or, as I would say it, is the tribulation Jesus is here speaking of Daniel's 70th Week?  My position is that the tribulation Jesus is here speaking of is not Daniel's 70th Week at all, but is the tribulation that the Church, as a whole, has been experiencing since the giving of The Revelation.  Connecting with my position on the subject of this thread (which I certainly want to remain mindful of), what Jesus was speaking of was the tribulation that the Church as a whole was to experience as a result of the activity of the four horsemen, which parallels the tribulation that He had described in the opening section of His Discourse (e.g., Matt. 24:4-14).  Timing wise, this "tribulation" (vs. 29) will continue until the beginning of the period of the Day of the Lord (also vs. 29/cp. Rev. 6:12-14 & Acts 2:20), which will begin the same day the Church is gathered (vs. 31).  Said another way, the tribulation of these days ("those days" from the disciples' perspective) is one day going to converge with the beginning of the Day of the Lord---which could take place today.

For me, a helpful example to better understanding Jesus' words is to be found in the account of Noah and the flood.  Consider the tribulation that Noah and his family must have experienced while the ark was being built.  If Jesus had been speaking of Noah's day, He could have said, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days, all the fountains of the great deep will be broken up, and the windows of heaven will be opened..." (cp. Gen. 7:11).  In retrospect (which is always easier), we would know that the tribulation Jesus was speaking of would have connected with what Noah and his family went through in the years leading up to the flood, when "every imagination of the thoughts of [man's] heart was only evil continually" (Gen. 6:5) and the "earth was corrupt before God" and "filled with violence" (Gen. 6:11).

In prospect (which is always harder), when Jesus says, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days",  this would be comparable to the tribulation Noah and his family experienced up until the time just preceding the beginning of the flood.  His words, "shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light..." would be comparable---timing wise---to the flood actually beginning.  As it will be the day the 6th Seal is opened, it would not be hard to envision those in Noah's day saying of the flood when it started, "the great day of His wrath is come"!

In a nutshell, what Jesus is saying in Matthew 24:29 is that immediately after the tribulation of the era of the Church, the Day of the Lord will begin.  And, this will happen the day the 6th Seal is opened.  Now, I know that we disagree concerning what the Day of the Lord and the 6th Seal entails.  But, hopefully, what I am saying will help you to better understand some more of the support for my position.

Of your second reference, from II Thessalonians 2:3, my position is that what Paul is speaking to here is indeed Christ's Second Advent, and as you indicate, it will come "after the A of D."  Where we differ is that you don't see the gathering (and Christ's coming for His Sign Appearance) as happening before all of this, which, according to the reading (vs. 1), is the basis upon which Paul tells his readers to "be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled..." (vs. 2).  A snag for us may revolve around "the Day of Christ" in verse two, which I submit is the Day of Christ's Second Advent, and not the period of the Day of the Lord judgment, as most translations have it.  Concisely, the KJV correctly translates "Christos" from the Textus Receptus.  If Paul had meant the Day of the Lord, I submit that he would have here used the word "kurios" (for Lord) as he did concerning the Day of the Lord in His previous letter to the Thessalonians (I Thess. 5:2).  That he didn't, and that he said what he did like he said it in his second letter is significant and needs to be recognized and acknowledged.  It seems to me from some of our discussions that you may also see the Day of the Lord as being essentially synonymous with the Day of Christ---which I do not.  This may be another snag for us.

On 4/10/2021 at 4:42 AM, Diaste said:

Both of these passages have clear timing.

After the GT and after the A of D. 

None of the pretrib proofs of 1 Cor 15, 1 Thess 4 and 1 Thess 5.

1 Thess 4 is the order of the resurrection but no timing in relation to other events of the end of the age.

1 Thess 5 speaks to the manner in which the day will come upon believers and unbelievers but again there is no timing in relation to other events of the end of the age.

1 Cor 15 speaks to the nature of the resurrection and it's effects on those caught up but there is no timing in relation to other events of the end of the age.

All the cited passages speak to the same event. Two clearly provide timing and three do not. Yet instead of just accepting the timing as Jesus said pretrib must invent timing or another catching up to satisfy the needs of the doctrine.

For clarification, the two passages you are speaking of in the opening sentence of what I here quoted of you are Matthew 24:29-31 and II Thessalonians 2:3---which I just spoke to.

Moving on, while you state that "I Thess 4" and "I Thess 5" give "no timing in relation to other events of the end of the age",  I have to disagree.  There are so many points of convergence with these passages and what is said about the Day of the Lord (I Thess. 5:2), Jesus' words in Matthew 24:29-31, and the opening of the 6th Seal, that it can't be denied that the gathering happens just before the beginning of the Day of the Lord---a most important element of timing.  Which, kinda puts us back at the thing of whether the opening of the 6th Seal concerns Christ's Second Advent.

You state, "All the cited passages speak to the same event. Two clearly provide timing and three do not."  The five passages, a little more specifically, were Matthew 24:29-31, II Thessalonians 2:3, I Thessalonians 4:16-17, I Thessalonians 5:1-3, and I Corinthians 15:51-52.  I agree that the passages not in bold "speak to the same event"---that being the opening of the 6th Seal (Rev. 6:12-7:17) and the event of Christ's Sign Appearance for the resurrection and the rapture of the Church.  Conversely, the passage in bold is the only one that speaks to Christ's Second Advent.  Just realize that what Paul says two verses prior (II Thess. 2:1) concerns His Sign Appearance for the "gathering" (which is also a "coming"), which again, was the basis upon which he told his readers to "be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled..." (II Thess. 2:2).

On 4/10/2021 at 4:42 AM, Diaste said:

Among other misapplications of scripture pretrib creates a scenario ignorant of all the evidence based on one verse; "For God has not appointed us to suffer wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ."

While this is truth doctrinal adultery and scriptural infidelity lead to a false conclusion that the 70th week equals wrath and therefore, pretrib. 

I get that you are not relying on this shameless manipulation but you still have zero evidence of timing for pretrib; and that in the face of plainly written timing.

Please, please provide a single pretrib timing proof written as concise and open as Jesus did: [edited for brevity to emphasize order and timing]

“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’

For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it.

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days 

Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and

then all the tribes of the earth will mourn,

 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet,

and they will gather together His elect from the four winds,

According to my position, it is at verse 29 ("Immediately after the tribulation of those days)" that Jesus turns His attention to the event of the 6th Seal and His Sign Appearance for the gathering.  Once He turns His attention to this event, this remains His focus until the end of the chapter.  This becomes apparent when Jesus' Olivet Discourse is studied in conjunction with what is revealed in The Revelation.  Now, I don't want you to think that I missed what you are showing.  I just don't want you to miss what I show.  As I have said more often of late, I often see what others are saying when it comes to what it may look like on the surface.  It is what remains below the surface---which bears the surface---that continues to make my position truly solid.  To be fair, I feel that you would like to say the same and you probably feel the same.  We both know that it all gets quite deep.  I just hope that you will continue to consider what I point out.

Concerning your request, "Please, please provide a single pretrib timing proof written as concise and open as Jesus did:"  My first thought concerning your desire for something "concise" is that this bespeaks something on the surface---and that is fine, if it continues to be supported by what is found below the surface.  Concise is nice, but it cannot be allowed to be favored over comprehensive   In any case, and on my part, I see several proofs that should meet the criteria of your request, but, of these, I also think of the ole saying, "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder."

For example, I see Matthew 24:29-31 as being what you are requesting, but the "trib" in "pretrib" makes this one harder to see for those steeped in the word "trib".  This is one of the reasons I prefer to say that I am pre-Daniel's 70th Week in my rapture position.

When it is understood that everything Jesus says after He turns His attention to the event of the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" connects with this sign appearance and the gathering, most everything He says in the remainder of the chapter fits your request as well.  How in?  If seals 1-5 are opened (according to your understanding) and trumpets 1-6 are sounded (according to your understanding), these would amount to major advertisements of the "day and hour" that Jesus says no one will know.  Said another way, there is no way to construe the opening of the seals (1-5) and the sounding of the trumpets (1-6) as having taken place (according to your understanding) and mankind yet having any semblance of an unsuspecting mentality preceding the gathering and the beginning of the Day of the Lord.  This alone is like the Waterloo to any position other than the pretrib, or pre-Daniel's 70th Week rapture position.  As I see it, a solid realizing of the foregoing also makes I Thessalonians 4:16-5:3 to fit the criteria of your request.

When what is under the surface is understood, this also makes II Thessalonians 2:1-3 to fit the criteria of your request.  And, when the appearance of "the Lamb" (Rev. 6:16) with the opening of the 6th Seal is fully differentiated from Christ's coming as the King of kings and the Lord of lords upon a white horse with all the armies in Heaven following Him, what is under the surface and comprehensive makes what is on the surface and concise much more clear.  I don't know if you have yet begun to really see what all I have shown, but, when all there is below the surface is beheld, it is easy to realize that what is on the surface cannot be properly understood alone.

On 4/10/2021 at 4:42 AM, Diaste said:

Interesting and often missed is this:

"And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened."

Now why would the days of GT have to shortened for the elect when the elect won't be in the GT? Would you say it's the 'tribulation saints'? But pretrib holds this to be wrath of God and so no saint or believer in Jesus can be in the wrath of God. 

According to Scripture, the 144,000 and the "tribulation saints" would be the elect Jesus is here referring to.

Concerning your last statement, if the 6th Seal were opened today, all the saved at that time would be gathered, as "God hath not appointed us to wrath" (I Thess. 5:9).  We will "escape" (I Thess. 5:3) that time, merely because we were already saved preceding that time.  What we would be escaping is the period of the last days' "Day of the Lord" judgment (I Thess. 5:2), which takes in everything from the day that the 6th Seal is opened through the Last Judgment.  Concerning God's wrath on an individual, or who God's wrath actually touches during this period is something God has complete control over.  For example, during this period and the sounding of the 5th Trumpet, the "locusts" spoken of are commanded to only hurt "those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads" (Rev. 9:4).

Before the actual pouring out of the seven vials of the wrath of God (Rev. 16), we see the 144,000 (Rev. 14) and those who have rejected the beast (Rev. 15) in Heaven.  We know that the Jews as a nation will turn to Christ at His Second Advent, which does not occur until after the vials of God's wrath have begun to be poured out.  And, there will also be those who survive everything that happens and will go into the category of "sheep" at the sheep/goat judgment that will take place at the beginning of Christ's reign (Matt. 25:31-46)---which also does not occur until after the vials are poured out.  So, whatever "pretrib holds" concerning "this to be the wrath of God",  it must be understood in accord with all that is revealed in Scripture.  God protected His elect during the periods of the Day of the Lord judgments that happened in the 8th and 6th centuries B.C.  He will do the same during the last days' Day of the Lord judgment for those who come to Him during this time---the time in which He will bring everything concerning this world to a close.

[not an echo]

On 4/10/2021 at 5:48 AM, Diaste said:

On 4/7/2021 at 12:24 AM, not an echo said:

First of all, I believe you are trying to fit some of Joel's prophetic puzzle pieces into a place where they do not go.  There may be some color similarities, but it takes more than that for a puzzle to come together correctly.  The cause of the locust destruction spoken of in Joel is not the same as the cause of the destruction spoken of in The Revelation.  Whether literal locusts or an army, nothing of this sort is spoken of in connection with the trumpets of The Revelation until the 5th Trumpet, and then, it has nothing to do with the flora of the earth.  Quite to the contrary, "it was commanded them (the locusts) that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree;  but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads" (Rev. 9:4).

Yes. But it's Joel 1 that makes the associations with the a of d, the day of the Lord, and the 1st trump regardless of the references to locusts in 1:4, which may be a reference to spiritual decay and not actual locusts. Don't let a single verse cloud the body of evidence contained in the prophecy.

Reinforcing what you quoted of me above, I would add the following...

(1)  The origin of the fire(s) spoken of in Joel stems from the invading "nation" (1:6;  2:2-3), not the sky.

(2)  Joel 1 does not speak of "the a of d",  neither does any of Joel's prophecies.

(3)  Until Joel 2:28, Joel's prophecies connect with the Day of the Lord judgments that came upon the land in the 8th and 6th centuries B.C.

To anyone interested in looking into these things further, I speak to this much in my thread, Joel's Prophecies and the Day of the Lord (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/270772-joels-prophecies-and-the-day-of-the-lord/).

On 4/10/2021 at 5:48 AM, Diaste said:

Quote

Concerning the last half of your reply, my first thought I will borrow from you:  The Revelation "disappoints here."  If you are allowing that the 6th Seal is the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (Matt. 24:30), where do you locate Christ's Second Coming in a post-trib view?  According to my understanding of what you believe, the "great sound of a trumpet" in Matthew 24:31 would have to be the 7th Trumpet.  But, if this happens with the opening of the 6th Seal, what about the five month period (Rev. 9:5, 10) where the locusts of the 5th Trumpet are not allowed to hurt those with "the seal of God in their foreheads" (Rev. 9:4), meaning those sealed with the opening of the 6th Seal (Rev. 7:3)?  You already have a conglomeration Diaste, and we haven't even got to the 7th Seal.  I just can't get the puzzle pieces to come together for me in this way, not even if I allow what I feel to be the forcing of a piece.  And, there's a lot more pieces that these.

I never said it occurs with the opening of the 6th seal, I said it occurs in conjunction and what I mean by that is the timing and order. It's not concurrent. That would be ridiculous as the signs happen before the gathering. 

A strict chronology of Revelation is impossible. I'm not saying this is what you are doing but it appears some latent tendency exists. 

I don't in anyway associate the visions of Rev 7 with the opening of the 6th seal as if those events were born of that opening. The language doesn't lead to chronology e.g.:

John says in Rev 6:1 "Then I watched..." So all of chapter 6 is what he saw. Then John says, "After this I saw..." in 7:1. So after he was done done watching in ch.6 he now saw something after the vision in ch.6. John doesn't associate the vision in ch. 7 as flowing from 6:12-17. John isn't saying "And when..." like in chapter 6 when as he saw a seal opened something happened. 

There isn't any timing or order for either the sealing or the great multitude in ch. 7 in relation to other events and not even to the two events depicted in ch. 7. We are seeing the fact of what will happen not the when.

Concerning your take on "ch. 7",  where do you see the four angels of 7:1-3 picking back up on what they are momentarily refrained from doing?  Now, consider whether what happens in chapter 7 comes between the 6th Seal and the 7th.

In your last paragraph, you make the statement that "There isn't any timing or order for either the sealing or the great multitude in ch. 7 in relation to other events..."  Do you not think that what Jesus says in Matthew 24:29-31 connects what you speak of to the 6th Seal?  First of all, He speaks of the 6th Seal celestial signs and the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven",  at which time "all the tribes" of the earth shall mourn..." (vs. 30).  Corresponding with this, in Revelation 7:4 John writes, "And I heard the number of them which were sealed:  and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel."  Next, Jesus says "He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds..." (vs. 31).  It should not surprise us that "a great multitude" will be gathered at this time!  Moreover, I Thessalonians 4:16-5:3 connects those being "caught up" (or "gathered") as taking place just before the beginning of the period of the Day of the Lord judgment (Rev. 6:17).

I don't see how you can cling so tenaciously to the connections you try to make between Joel 1 and the 1st Trumpet and miss things like these.

On 4/10/2021 at 5:48 AM, Diaste said:

Quote

But, if this is so, verse 28 does not fit.  Do you see it?  When someone is present, their return is not pending, or "nigh." 

This is an error in comprehension. What did Luke say exactly?

"When these things begin to happen, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”"

You associated this verse with v 27. Verse 27 reads:

"At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory"

You conclude 'these things' must only mean 'they will see'? Or is it Jesus coming in power along with 'they will see' that's the totality of 'these things'? Are we to ignore all the other things Jesus spoke of that will come to pass and that we will see?

And why did you pick on Luke?

"So also, when you see all these things, you will know that He is near,f right at the door. 34Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened" Matt 24

"So also, when you see these things happening, know that He is near,f right at the door. 30Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened." Mark 13

No. In Luke Jesus is referring to the whole of the Olivet discourse as is confirmed by Matt and Mark.

What I point out with Luke's account is that if verse 27 is of Christ's Second Advent, His Second Advent is not "near" (vs. 28)---it is here!  My position is that verse 27 is of the Sign Appearance Jesus will make, which is a "coming" and will be "with power and great glory" as well.  One way we can know this is by comparing Luke's account with Matthew's.  When you compare the accounts, according to Matthew's, Jesus refers to this same event as the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven."  Interestingly, Luke's account also reads like a paraphrase of the 6th Seal (cp. Lk. 21:25-28 with Rev. 6:12-17).  When you take all of these things and look closer at the chronology of The Revelation---which I submit is Divinely chronological*---everything fits.  There's nothing that doesn't fit.

* See the opening post (and all) of my thread, The Chronological Order of The Revelation (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/249470-the-chronological-order-of-the-revelation/).

On 4/10/2021 at 5:48 AM, Diaste said:

Quote

And, according to The Key, we don't have any evidence of the A of D or the beginning of Daniel's 70th Week until Revelation 11:1-3.  Compare Matthew 24:15, Mark 13:14, Luke 21:20, and II Thessalonians 2:3-4.

Unless the chronology is stated Revelation is not chronological. Because an event is depicted in later chapters does not mean that's the timing of the condition or event. You like to think it is, as do many others; it's just not the case. You would of course agree the timing for Rev 12:1-5 is the past and not after 6 seals have opened and 6 trumps sounded. 

Novels are all written this way. A main event is foreshadowed, then ensuing chapters follow the characters in a steady march to the main event, all in the same time on the continuum.  Later the story is advanced and the process begins again.

Revelation is written like this. A major outline is presented and the narrative regresses to provide details of characters and events in the previous outline. Even knowing this it's not easy to assay. If we don't proof text, add, assume and remain precise in language and just shut up and listen, it's much easier.

It is easy to gather that what is said in "Rev 12:1-5" concerns a time way before The Revelation was even given---a time concerning the birth of Christ and Satan's activity against Him at that time.  It is a fitting prologue to where The Revelation is at chronologically, and that is the period heralded by the 7th Trumpet, which includes the last half of Daniel's 70th Week and Satan's activity during this time.  The period of the 7th Trumpet takes in all of Revelation 12-20, as shown below.  The indicated OVERLAPS merely show overlaps of information shown in this section of The Revelation---especially in connection with 11:15-19---which chapters 12-20 expound.  Understanding the overlapping element of chapters 11-20 is an important key to understanding the chronological order of The Revelation...

DETAILS OF THE PERIOD HERALDED BY THE SEVENTH TRUMPET

(REV. 12)---SPIRITUAL REALM SCENE OF SATAN'S ACTIVITY DISCLOSED

   A.  Satan's activity against Israel (vs.1/ Gen. 37:9-11) leading up to this time (vss. 1-6)

   B.  The war in the heavenlies resulting in Satan being cast down unto the earth (vss. 7-9)

   C.  Satan's activity against Israel / Beginning of last half of Daniel's 70th Week (vss. 10-17)

   OVERLAPS---(vs. 3 with 17:3);  (vs. 10 with 11:15);  (vs. 12 with 11:14)

(REV. 13)---PHYSICAL REALM SCENE OF SATAN'S ACTIVITY DISCLOSED

   A.  Satan's rise in the political realm as the beast of his revived Babylon empire (vss. 1-10)

   B.  Satan's rise in the religious realm as the false prophet of his harlot church (vss. 11-14)

   C.  Satan's despotic rule through the beast (Antichrist) and the false prophet (vss. 15-18)

   OVERLAPS---(vs. 1 with 12:3);  (vss. 1-3ff with 17:7-12ff);  (vs. 7 with 12:11)

(REV. 14)---TRIUMPH OF THE 144,000 SAINTS DISCLOSED

   A.  Scene of the 144,000 saints in Heaven, and a last call for world to turn to God (vss. 1-7)

   B.  The doom of all who worship the beast / The reaping of the wicked, and God's wrath (vss. 8-20)

   OVERLAPS---(vs. 7 with 11:18);  (vs. 8 with 16:19 and 18:2ff)

(REV. 15)---TRIUMPH OF DANIEL'S 70TH WEEK MARTYRS DISCLOSED

   A.  Scene of Daniel's 70th Week martyrs in Heaven, and their song (vss. 1-4)

   B.  Preparation for the pouring out of the seven vials of God's wrath (vss. 5-8)

   OVERLAPS---(vs. 2 with 13:15, 14:9-13, and 20:4);  (vss. 5-8 with 11:18 and 16:1-21)

(REV. 16)---SEVEN VIALS OF GOD'S WRATH DISCLOSED

   A.  Angels instructed to pour out the seven vials of God's wrath upon the earth (vs. 1)

   B.  The results of the pouring out of God's wrath upon the earth (vss. 2-21)

   OVERLAPS---(vss. 14-16 with 19:19);  (vss. 17-21 with 11:18-19);  (vs. 19 with 14:7-8, 20)

(REV. 17)---JUDGMENT OF THE GREAT WHORE DISCLOSED

   A.  John's seeing of the woman upon the scarlet beast (red dragon), and his wonder (vss. 1-6)

   B.  The mystery surrounding the woman and the beast explained, and her fate (vss. 7-18)

   OVERLAPS---(vs. 8 with 13:3-4, 8);  (vs. 14 with 19:11-14ff)

(REV. 18)---JUDGMENT OF BABYLON THE GREAT DISCLOSED

   A.  The fall of Babylon the great, and the lament of those who were loyal to it (vss. 1-19)

   B.  The call to rejoice over the fall of Babylon / The finality of its destruction (vss. 20-24)

   OVERLAPS---(vs. 5 with 16:19);  (vs. 8 with 16:17-21);  (vss. 10, 17, and 19 with 14:7-8)

(REV. 19)---THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST DISCLOSED

   A.  Scene of rejoicing in preparation for Christ's return / The Second Coming of Christ (vss. 1-16)

   B.  The Battle of Armageddon, and the doom of the beast and the false prophet (vss. 17-21)

   OVERLAPS---(vss. 1-6 with 11:15-17);  (vs. 15ff with 14:17-20)

(REV. 20)---CHRIST'S REIGN AND LAST JUDGMENT DISCLOSED

   A.  The binding of Satan, Christ's thousand year reign, and Satan's ultimate doom (vss. 1-10) 

   B.  The "Great White Throne Judgment" and ultimate doom of the lost (vss. 11-15)

   OVERLAPS---(vss. 4-6 with 11:15);  (vs. 12 with 11:18)

In an effort to keep us on track with the topic of this thread, let me add that Revelation 20 concludes what is found within the covers of the Seven Sealed Book, other than that Happily Ever After part for God and all of His saved---a fitting focus of chapters 21-22.  The Seven Sealed Book could rightly be entitled THE DAY OF THE LORD, for this is what the Seven Sealed Book concerns---every single page.  Concerning the seals of this book, they concern some very important Christianity relevant elements of what history holds until the day that the Day of the Lord begins---every single seal.  Said another way, because the 7th Seal can be opened the same day that the 6th Seal is (which I submit will be the case), and the 6th Seal marks the day that the Church will be gathered, all the seals pertain to the era of the NT Church---again, every single seal.  This began with the opening of the 1st Seal---and the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th seals---very soon after John received The Revelation.  What we see in history from that time until now is a testimony to what Satan has wrought through his four henchmen.  Jesus summarized these things in the opening section of His Olivet Discourse.  I hope you will take a moment and read again my opening post for this thread.

[not an echo]

On 4/18/2021 at 6:55 AM, Diaste said:

On 4/17/2021 at 2:42 PM, not an echo said:

Hello Diaste,

I think of my life Scripture and would encourage you with it, from Proverbs 3:

 5  Trust in the LORD with all thine heart;  and lean not unto thine own understanding.

 6  In all thy ways acknowledge Him, and He shall direct thy paths.

Indeed. 

There's a discussion about this on Worthy.

Several dogmatic stances on the rapture exist. If there is only one rapture then only one is correct. So which one leans on the Lord for the truth?

I'm reminded of Jesus' words, "If ye continue in My Word, then are ye My disciples indeed;  And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (Jn. 8:31-32).