The First Seal and the Horseman on the White Horse

[Diaste]

12 hours ago, not an echo said:

Back for a little while anyway.  I'm minded to go in a little different direction this time than I have before in response to similar, as there are a few different directions that I have on my mind.

When it comes to linguistics, sound doctrine, and the study of prophecy, I believe we are both aware that we all have to guard against eschatological biases.  Even the translators have to guard against such, and still, there are evidences of such showing up.

When we have come to be convinced of a certain position, it is quite natural to bask in the discovery (even if supposed) that it will continue to hold up under careful scrutiny.  Further, if it seems that there is a want of support from this translation or that, it is easy to dismiss some in favor of others.  And, if worse comes to worse, what can we discover from the lexicons?  My observation has been that if one looks long enough and hard enough, what is being looked for can be found some way, some how.  Hey, Satan is in the mix of all this too!  We can't forget this.  And, I never do.

Curiously, with all the scholarship that is in the fray, scholarship is wrestling with it all as much as it ever has, if not more.  I'm reminded of what Paul said to Timothy of some, who are "Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth" (II Tim. 3:7).  Some of the most noted, quoted, and accomplished scholars on the face of the earth believe we evolved from lifeless muck.  And it matters not the side of the fence, scholarship will be there.  What's the deal?  The foundation of the scholarship.  Jesus spoke to that.  He said, "If ye continue in My Word, then are ye my disciples indeed;  And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (Jn. 8:31b-32).  The night before He was crucified, He said to the disciples, "Howbeit, when He, the Spirit of Truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth:  for He shall not speak of Himself;  but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak:  and He will shew you things to come" (Jn. 16:13).  Of course, there's more.  And realize Diaste, I'm not saying these things because I think you may not be aware.  I'm saying these things because I want you (and all) to know that I am aware.

Before I move to my next reply, if things were turned around and the New Testament had been penned in English and we were Greeks, imagine what we could do with a Collegiate Webster's (not to mention the Internet).  Moreover, we are very keenly aware to the realization that there's much more to sentences and paragraphs than the definition of one or two particular words or phrases.  And me, I'm still working on getting me ole English down,  so you'll have to pardon me on some things!

Having said all this, I think for now, where the water really meets the wheel in our discussion of late may revolve around "this generation" (Matt. 24:32-35, esp. vs. 34) and what I am going to do with that, in relation to my position(s).  But first, I got some other callings...

This all just casts doubt. I my case it's not going to be effective. I have heard from the learned people again and again. I listen on a weekly basis to any number of current experts. In 99% of the lectures on this topic it always begins with the premise a rapture exists and it's pretrib. On the foundation of false assumption the house is built. The scholars are expertly trained and adroit concerning internal consistency, but it yields no fruit. 

Show the illogical whack at timing and the whole house crumbles. Why? Scripture refutes them again and again. Two places show timing and it's not in the classic rapture verses. Matt 24 and 2 Thessalonians refute the idea of pretrib as it's the only truth of timing in the whole of the Word. And it's after the A of D. 

You'll see. We all will.

[not an echo]

On 3/14/2021 at 6:19 AM, Diaste said:

Quote

And you know, we're talking about somewhat more than an individual.  We are talking about millions and millions and millions, since Christ spoke the words and John was given The Revelation.  As someone has rightly said, "Sometimes we don't realize that prophecy has been fulfilled till we look over our shoulders in retrospect."

Uh huh...and the looking back is this moment? How do you deal with

"Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened."?

The above quote must come to pass as stated. Jesus cannot be speaking to the Jews of the 1st century as the sign of the coming of the Son of Man didn't occur and neither did the gathering; neither did the physical coming of Jesus to earth occur.

This means no other generation is the terminal generation as none of these things came to pass in toto. Which also means the concept of Revelation seals being opened in the 1st century could not have occurred either since Matt 24 is the outline of the events of Revelation. 

Hello Diaste,

Well, it has been an aggravating computer morning.  First of all, I tried and tried to get your reply and my quote to transfer and show the Quote as being mine, but to no avail.  I have noticed this on some other rare occasions.  Do you know if this is a program glitch, or, something that I fail to do sometimes?  Also, sometimes on a post that gives an expand prompt, when expanded, some text may be found to overlap.  Also aggravating, as I am a perfectionist.

Next, after working on what had became a fairly lengthy reply, I had to go to town.  So, rather than go ahead and submit my reply, I went to town with thoughts of proofreading upon my return, then submitting.  When I got back, my computer was locked, like in a deep sleep.  After much effort, all I was able to do was to get it to let me X out.  When I came back in, I was still logged in, but my reply was gone.  You may know the feeling.  Right now, I'm thinking of keeping my replies shorter, so that when similar happens in the future, I may not lose so much.  At least, till I discover what is happening.

I am certainly minded to go down the path of answering you concerning the "this generation" question, but I want to do it in a way that remains mindful of my thread.  The phrase "this generation" deserves a dedicated thread, and I would like to work one up later.  As things have been, I have not been able to give the time I would like to my present threads, so, I am reluctant to start a new one.  But, we'll see.

Annnyway, it must be understood that I see what Jesus says in Matthew 24:29-31---though to the end of the chapter---as concerning the event of His Sign Appearance and the rapture, an event that will precede His Second Advent by at least seven years.  Said a different way, based upon everything that I am seeing in Scripture, EVERYTHING Jesus says in Matthew 24:29-51 concerns THE VERY DAY of this event.  Moreover, this section of Scripture includes His parable of the fig tree and the "this generation" statement (24:32-35).

With this understanding, I see the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (vs. 30) as being one of the "all these things" that He speaks of in His fig tree parable (vs. 33), right along with all the other signs He speaks of relating to His Sign Appearance (vss. 29-31).  Of course, my understanding of this is far different than that of those who hold to the common pre-trib view.  While I am definitely pre-trib (I prefer to say pre-Daniel's 70th Week) I am not in the camp of those who hold to the common pre-trib view.  But, I do not hate on them, or those of any other view.  Except you Diaste, I may hate on you a little bit.  Just kidding.   

I do not see what Jesus says in verses 5-14 as being part of the "all these things" of verse 33.  One reason---again---one reason, is because of what He says in verses 5-6:  "For many shall come in My name, saying, I am Christ;  and shall deceive many.  And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars:  see that ye be not troubled:  for all these things must come to pass, but the end IS NOT YET."  I see all these things, of verse 6, and what follows through to verse 14 as stemming from the activity of the four horsemen.  Based upon Scripture, history, and the way the wheels of my mind turn, they have been riding throughout the corridors of the era of the Church, even until now.  When the 6th Seal is opened, the event of the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" will take place (Rev. 6:15-17), and the rapture will occur (Matt. 24:31/Rev. 7:9-17).  The generation that experiences all that this event entails will not pass till Jesus comes as King of kings and Lord of lords.  Recall that I speak of this as the intersecting event, as shown below:

Edited February 1, 2023 by not an echo
to reset illustration

[Diaste]

13 hours ago, not an echo said:

Hello Diaste,

Well, it has been an aggravating computer morning.  First of all, I tried and tried to get your reply and my quote to transfer and show the Quote as being mine, but to no avail.  I have noticed this on some other rare occasions.  Do you know if this is a program glitch, or, something that I fail to do sometimes?  Also, sometimes on a post that gives an expand prompt, when expanded, some text may be found to overlap.  Also aggravating, as I am a perfectionist.

Next, after working on what had became a fairly lengthy reply, I had to go to town.  So, rather than go ahead and submit my reply, I went to town with thoughts of proofreading upon my return, then submitting.  When I got back, my computer was locked, like in a deep sleep.  After much effort, all I was able to do was to get it to let me X out.  When I came back in, I was still logged in, but my reply was gone.  You may know the feeling.  Right now, I'm thinking of keeping my replies shorter, so that when similar happens in the future, I may not lose so much.  At least, till I discover what is happening.

It just glitches. I have experienced all of that. Even clicked 'Submit Reply', the system goes into save mode, sits there thinking forever and then just resets and deletes the text. Annoying, as sometimes much time has been taken to respond.

I feel ya bro.

And what is with the editor?  Sometimes it's complete, sometimes not. 

 

13 hours ago, not an echo said:

Annnyway, it must be understood that I see what Jesus says in Matthew 24:29-31---though to the end of the chapter---as concerning the event of His Sign Appearance and the rapture, an event that will precede His Second Coming by at least seven years.  Said a different way, based upon everything that I am seeing in Scripture, EVERYTHING Jesus says in Matthew 24:29-51 concerns THE VERY DAY of this event.  Moreover, this section of Scripture includes His parable of the fig tree and the "this generation" statement (24:32-35).

"an event that will precede His Second Coming by at least seven years."

Yeah? The thought process goes like this?

We are not destined to wrath.

The 70th week of Daniel is all wrath.

We are not destined to the 70th week of Daniel.

The first premise is true, the second, not so much.

 

13 hours ago, not an echo said:

Said a different way, based upon everything that I am seeing in Scripture, EVERYTHING Jesus says in Matthew 24:29-51 concerns THE VERY DAY of this event.  Moreover, this section of Scripture includes His parable of the fig tree and the "this generation" statement (24:32-35).

Sure. But why limit 'Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened' to the end of the discourse? It doesn't apply to v. 4-28? How is that justified? 

Are you saying 'all these things' cannot or should not include the false christs, persecution, the travail of the earth, war and the A of D? They are all ' things', are they not? All part of the answer to the question, "“Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”"

13 hours ago, not an echo said:

 Except you Diaste, I may hate on you a little bit.  Just kidding.   

I do what I can. 

13 hours ago, not an echo said:

I do not see what Jesus says in verses 5-14 as being part of the "all these things" of verse 33.  One reason---again---one reason, is because of what He says in verses 5-6:  "For many shall come in My name, saying, I am Christ;  and shall deceive many.  And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars:  see that ye be not troubled:  for all these things must come to pass, but the end IS NOT YET." 

And yet the exact words are repeated in v 4 and 34. Sure the end isn't at that time but Jesus groups the events and conditions into a  set of 'all these things'

Then says it again in verse 34, '...until all these things have happened.'

Seems to me all these things are unequivocally all these things, which is all of 'em.

13 hours ago, not an echo said:

I see all these things, of verse 6, and what follows through to verse 14 as stemming from the activity of the four horsemen. Based upon Scripture, history, and the way the wheels of my mind turn, they have been riding throughout the corridors of the era of the Church, even until now.           

I do as well, in a much shorter period of time. I don't think we should shy away from the obvious parallel between Matt 24 and the Revelation. It seems it happens but it diminishes our knowledge and understanding. Now maybe you aren't doing that but I don't see the two as disparate or stand alone, they work closely in conjunction, Matt 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 as the broad outline of events and timing and the detailed prophecy of the Revelation presenting the body that proves the thesis. 

The time frame is limited to 7 years at most; some say less. Few are partially preterist, such as you. So what is that justifies your view? Certainly you can't justify by means of personal belief however strong the conviction. What is in 'I see it as..." that overrides the factual account and renders the conclusion you propose?

Is is not better to adjust to the complete sphere of fact in the account, accepting the validity of those facts originating from the Alpha and Omega, aptly and accurately engaging our capacity for inference, all within the unyielding bounds of what is written?

I don't doubt for a minute that everything in the first four seals has been going on for millennia. It certainly has quite intensely from the gaze of historians. That doesn't mean it should, or could, be the fulfillment or the answer. 

There is a great deal written across the ages about this time. Ancient peoples and prophets spoke of the time Jesus would return to rule. Joel has seen it.

"Mourn like a virgin in sackcloth grieving for the betrothed of her youth. Grain offerings and drink offerings are cut off from the house of the Lord. [the A of D] The priests are in mourning, those who minister before the Lord. The fields are ruined, the ground is dried up; the grain is destroyed, [the 1st trump] the new wine is dried up, the olive oil fails."

There's more.

"Despair, you farmers, wail, you vine growers; grieve for the wheat and the barley, because the harvest of the field is destroyed."

1st trump: " A third of the earth was burned up, along with a third of the trees and all the green grass"

As you know the small grains which form the staple of populations diet are grasses. Joel records them as all gone at the time of the A of D, before the 6th seal, as Joel records the day of the Lord is only near at this point yet the 1st and third trump have sounded.

Alas for that day! For the day of the Lord is near; it will come like destruction from the Almighty. Has not the food been cut off before our very eyes [1st trump]— joy and gladness from the house of our God? [A of D] The seeds are shriveled beneath the clods. The storehouses are in ruins, the granaries have been broken down, for the grain has dried up. [1st trump] How the cattle moan! The herds mill about because they have no pasture; even the flocks of sheep are suffering. To you, Lord, I call, for fire has devoured the pastures in the wilderness [1st trump] and flames have burned up all the trees of the field. Even the wild animals pant for you; the streams of water have dried up [3rd trump] and fire has devoured the pastures in the wilderness. [1st trump]

Joel then places at least one trump either at the time of the A of D or before, and before the 6th seal, and before the 5th seal in all likelihood. I would bet the 1st trump and the 3rd seal are cause and effect. If all the grasses are gone there is no food. The 3rd seal records the cost of a loaf of bread as a days wage. I don't know about you but if that's true then we have a crushing scarcity of daily staples, just as Joel records. That means the 3rd seal, the 1st trump and the A of D are occurring all at the same time and the 1st trump is the cause of the 3rd seal, or at least a partner.

 This means any other timing than this is incorrect. So then if the trumps must sound within the last week then so to do the seals open only in the last week and not millennia prior.

Not the best of news but it is the truth.

 

 

 

 

[The Light]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

"an event that will precede His Second Coming by at least seven years."

Yeah? The thought process goes like this?

We are not destined to wrath.

The 70th week of Daniel is all wrath.

We are not destined to the 70th week of Daniel.

The first premise is true, the second, not so much.

 

 

Right, the second premise is not true. The 70th week of Daniel is not wrath, it is the tribulation. Wrath begins after the 12 tribes across the earth are raptured prewrath, see Matt 24, the six seal in Rev 6, and the harvest of Rev 14.. The nation of Israel remains on earth during the wrath of God in a place of protection.

What you are missing is that the 70th week is about the people of Daniel, not the Church. And the people of Daniel cannot see until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in, which will happen pretrib, pre 70th week.

Edited March 21, 2021 by The Light

[Diaste]

2 hours ago, The Light said:

Right, the second premise is not true. The 70th week of Daniel is not wrath, it is the tribulation. Wrath begins after the 12 tribes across the earth are raptured prewrath, see Matt 24, the six seal in Rev 6, and the harvest of Rev 14.. The nation of Israel remains on earth during the wrath of God in a place of protection.

What you are missing is that the 70th week is about the people of Daniel, not the Church. And the people of Daniel cannot see until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in, which will happen pretrib, pre 70th week.

 Not missing it, you know I'm not.

The people of Daniel are Israel. Israel is the Israel of God. In Christ there is no Jew or Greek but all are one in Christ. If we are in Christ we are the seed of Abraham, or the seed of Isaac, the seed of Jacob, or Israel. 

It's not the nation in view here. If it were then the commission in Dan 9 would be placed on everyone in Israel, even those who did not believe. This commission was placed on those who have the testimony of the Lord God, not those who do not. That means the people of Daniel are the people of the faith of Abraham, or those in Christ, us. 

We could say the people in question were the liturgical Jews more interested in ritual than faith and belief. If that were the case why didn't Gabriel go to one the Aaronic priests? Because Daniel is a man greatly beloved, a man of great faith and belief and trust in the Lord. A man of the faith of Abraham. Those are the people of Daniel, the faithful. 

It's the only conclusion that makes sense based on what Paul taught. Other than the seed of Abraham axiom we know that we are grafted into the natural people of the Lord God. We know that branches of the natural tree were broken off because of unbelief. We know we are in that same position where we might not be spared if we become arrogant and act like we are better than the natural branches. We know Paul taught not all of Israel are Israel. Israel is the foundational ancestor and we are grafted into that family.

So when you say Israel, you actually mean all people of faith in the Lord Jesus.

[WilliamL]

30 minutes ago, Diaste said:

It's not the nation in view here. If it were then the commission in Dan 9 would be placed on everyone in Israel, even those who did not believe. This commission was placed on those who have the testimony of the Lord God, not those who do not. That means the people of Daniel are the people of the faith of Abraham, or those in Christ, us. 

The prophecy of Daniel 8-9 is upon the people of blood-Israel, Daniel's people, not the Church:

Daniel 9:4 And I prayed to the LORD my God, and made confession, and said, “O Lord, great and awesome God, who keeps His covenant and mercy with those who love Him, and with those who keep His commandments, 5 “we have sinned and committed iniquity, we have done wickedly and rebelled, even by departing from Your precepts and Your judgments. 7 ... to us shame of face, as it is this day—to the men of Judah, to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and all Israel, those near and those far off in all the countries to which You have driven them, because of the unfaithfulness which they have committed against You."

The following blog entry, and the two after it, clearly explain these things. Everything in Daniel 9:24-27 concerns the nation of Israel, "...your [Daniel's] people and for your holy city..." 9:24

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1568-daniel-924-27-examined-part-1-verse-24/

 

[Diaste]

11 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

The prophecy of Daniel 8-9 is upon the people of blood-Israel, Daniel's people, not the Church:

Daniel 9:4 And I prayed to the LORD my God, and made confession, and said, “O Lord, great and awesome God, who keeps His covenant and mercy with those who love Him, and with those who keep His commandments, 5 “we have sinned and committed iniquity, we have done wickedly and rebelled, even by departing from Your precepts and Your judgments. 7 ... to us shame of face, as it is this day—to the men of Judah, to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and all Israel, those near and those far off in all the countries to which You have driven them, because of the unfaithfulness which they have committed against You."

The following blog entry, and the two after it, clearly explain these things. Everything in Daniel 9:24-27 concerns the nation of Israel, "...your [Daniel's] people and for your holy city..." 9:24

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1568-daniel-924-27-examined-part-1-verse-24/

 

I understand. I just can't see this "Seventy weekse are decreed for your people and your holy city to stop their transgression, to put an end to sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy Place." Occurring by any other than the people of the faith of Abraham, especially since we see the condition of the country in Dan 9:24. The commission and the demographics of the people must encompass people of faith only. It's likely that many Jews were not natural born Israelis since there is no prohibition against any ethnicity converting. So much like we pray for all our country only people of faith in the Lord will "stop their transgression, to put an end to sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy Place." and they are not only natural born Israelis.

You could of course be correct here. However, a distinction must be made between Israel the nation and Israel the people of God, which are the seed of Abraham and hence, those in Christ. I see the problem as one of segregating the people of the nation from true Israel and a further segregation of the church. If not for Abraham the church doesn't exist because it's of faith and not religion or ethnicity.

This is why I say Daniel's people are the people of faith and not the whole nation [along with other reasons]. Even though Daniel's heart was toward all the people of the nation of Israel I don't think what was meant by his people were outside the same faith of Abraham.

 

[WilliamL]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

"Seventy weekse are decreed for your people and your holy city to stop their transgression, to put an end to sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy Place."

Much of your misunderstanding comes from this mistranslation of the passage. But apparently that is what you accept to be correct, so I'll just move along.

[The Light]

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

 Not missing it, you know I'm not.

The people of Daniel are Israel. Israel is the Israel of God. In Christ there is no Jew or Greek but all are one in Christ. If we are in Christ we are the seed of Abraham, or the seed of Isaac, the seed of Jacob, or Israel. 

It's not the nation in view here. If it were then the commission in Dan 9 would be placed on everyone in Israel, even those who did not believe. This commission was placed on those who have the testimony of the Lord God, not those who do not. That means the people of Daniel are the people of the faith of Abraham, or those in Christ, us. 

We could say the people in question were the liturgical Jews more interested in ritual than faith and belief. If that were the case why didn't Gabriel go to one the Aaronic priests? Because Daniel is a man greatly beloved, a man of great faith and belief and trust in the Lord. A man of the faith of Abraham. Those are the people of Daniel, the faithful. 

It's the only conclusion that makes sense based on what Paul taught. Other than the seed of Abraham axiom we know that we are grafted into the natural people of the Lord God. We know that branches of the natural tree were broken off because of unbelief. We know we are in that same position where we might not be spared if we become arrogant and act like we are better than the natural branches. We know Paul taught not all of Israel are Israel. Israel is the foundational ancestor and we are grafted into that family.

So when you say Israel, you actually mean all people of faith in the Lord Jesus.

I guess I just forgot that you were wearing the blinders of replacement theology. You would think that stuff would have went away when God restored Israel as a nation. It spreads like a cancer with no regard to the scripture, and hangs it hat on "there is not Jew nor Greek". Can't tell you enough times...IT'S ALL ABOUT TIMING. You are running with the end result without taking into account the timing of the events.

John 10

¹⁵ As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

¹⁶ And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

You say we are all one fold and that's correct but you seem to ignore the timing of the two folds into one fold.

Hos 9

¹⁰ I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

God saw the fathers of the Jews as the first ripe of the fig tree at her first time. In other words He saw the Jews as the first harvest but they served other Gods so the Gentiles will become the first harvest. Learn the parable of the fig tree. It has two harvests, and the Church will be the first harvest. 

According to the Word of God, there will be two raptures. The Church will be raptured pretrib and the 12 tribes across the earth, the seed of the woman, will be raptured prewrath.

Edited March 21, 2021 by The Light

[not an echo]

On 3/20/2021 at 7:03 AM, Diaste said:

On 3/19/2021 at 2:02 PM, not an echo said:

Hey Diaste,

Let me see how far I can get this afternoon...

First of all, we both know that prophecy, though Divine, is so very challenging.  Hey, we are human, and seeing "through a glass, darkly" (I Cor. 13:12)!  Also, I realize in the core of my being that both you and I are human.  And, I know what all has been involved in my seeing things as I presently do.  I think of when Christ came the first time.  The Israelites (God's chosen people!) were looking for something different than what they were seeing, and before they realized their error, they became a party to His crucifixion.  But, many of their hearts were pricked on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2:36-37).  I think of Paul, and what such a turn around.  Realizing these things, I try my best to be prayerfully careful with my every reply.  I want to believe that we have this in common.

To the subject of our focus, and expressed yet another way, on the basis of Scripture, history, and (what I believe to be) sound reasoning, I will maintain that what Jesus warned of in His Olivet Discourse indeed began to come to pass and will continue to come to pass until its fulness (Matt. 24:5-14), after which there will be the transition into Daniel's 70th Week (Matt. 24:15-28), this latter being divided from the former by the intersecting event of Christ's Sign Appearance and the rapture (Matt. 29-51).

Expand  

Since Jesus said, "Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened." we have to deal with:

What generation?

What are 'all these things'? 

If all these things are the whole prophesy which forms the answer to the question,

"“Tell us,” they said, “when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age?”"

Then no, none of it has come to pass yet as it must come to pass in a single generation. That would mean no generation has yet been the generation as verses 15-31 did not happen at any time in the past 1988 years

The generation in question will see all of it, not just a portion.

Hello Diaste,

I'm going to TRY to continue down the path we have been on, but, without cramming overmuch in along the way.  I have found that when I try to cram in too much, if a storm rolls up (i.e., a computer problem) and blows it all away, my journey ends up quite frustrating!  Ugh.  Whereas I haven't began to hate on you YET , I have hated on computers quite a bit.  I'm sure glad Jesus never said that we couldn't hate on computers (and all the other new fangled stuff)!  The temptation to refrain from doing that would probably be more than I could bear.

There are a lot of wonderful scenery details on our path that I would like to point out to you, so I know it is going to be difficult for me to refrain.  But, I am going to be working them all in, more like a little here and a little there, rather than the whole kit and caboodle.  Interestingly, about every prophecy has its own kit and caboodle, so we have an ultimate challenge before us.  The good thing is, we have till God calls us home!  Then we can sit at Jesus' feet and hear from Him where we hadn't yet seen clearly 

In regard to your above post, I would just like to clarify that I agree with you concerning your statement, "That would mean no generation has yet been the generation as verses 15-31 did not happen at any time in the past 1988 years."  Have you been thinking that I was believing this has happened???

Edited February 1, 2023 by not an echo