The First Seal and the Horseman on the White Horse

[not an echo]

On 3/20/2021 at 7:03 AM, Diaste said:

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Concerning Matthew 24:5-14, if what Jesus warned of had not began to come to pass in accord with what I have put forth in all my threads, a much bigger argument (for many) than what you have put forth would be that Jesus Christ didn't know what in the world He was talking about.  What were Christ's followers in the 2nd Century supposed to think when they saw some of the evidences of what Jesus warned of in the first part of His discourse?  Were they supposed to wonder and wonder and then have to dismiss it because it didn't quite measure up to their preconceptions?  At what time would they recognize that their preconceptions were misconceptions.  What about with the martyrs of the Dark Ages?  What about with the onset of World War I?  It was called WORLD WAR I.  Well, the dust settled from that.  Did Jesus miss something?  What about with the onset of World War II?  It was called WORLD WAR II.  Well, the dust settled from that.  Did Jesus miss another something?  Maybe the third time will be the charm...

I'm pretty sure they would have understood what  "Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened." meant to the entirety of the prophecy. Meaning the end is not then. The prophecy is a whole and not meant to be attacked with an ice pick.

If in my understanding, I had it all pecked up, it might be rightly said that I have attacked it "with an ice pick."  But, my understanding is very clean.  I am basically doing one thing---understanding verses 29-51 as having to do with the intersecting event of Christ's Sign Appearance.

As the above shows, in His Olivet Discourse, Jesus speaks concerning the Church Era, then of Daniel's 70th Week, then of the intersecting event of His Sign Appearance (and the rapture), which will come in between.  This means that those living when the rapture takes place (which may be us!) will have been living in the days that the end of the era of the Church actually converges with the time just preceding Daniel's 70th Week.  Hence, when Jesus begins to speak concerning the event of His Sign Appearance (Matt. 24:30) and makes the statement, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days" (Matt. 24:29), He can easily be referring to the days of the Church Era and the tribulation that He had spoken of in the first section of His discourse.  In accord with what I put forth in the opening post of this thread, this would be the tribulation effected by the horsemen of the first four seals.

Edited February 1, 2023 by not an echo
to reset illustration

[not an echo]

On 3/20/2021 at 7:03 AM, Diaste said:

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Oh, but what about when Israel became a nation!  Yes!   Yet now, all these decades have come and gone and everyone is busy, busy, busy, stretching, stretching, stretching on the words "this generation" (Matt.24:34), just knowing, knowing, knowing that He is going to come before such and such a time.  And Jesus wasn't even speaking of Israel in His parable of the fig tree (Matt. 24:32-35).

Well, "What generation?" is an important part of the prophecy since it's Jesus own words and it must be accounted for.

Well, whatever generation Jesus is talking about, part of the "all these things" (Matt. 24:33) would include the appearance of "the SIGN of the Son of man in heaven" (Matt. 24:30).  If what He says in verse 30 is His Second Advent (the very popular interpretation), it seems quite odd that He would indicate that the generation that sees that will see it.

Our understanding is helped when we realize that the event of His appearance after the opening of the 6th Seal (Rev. 6:15-16) is the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (Matt. 24:30) and that the generation that witnesses that event (with its attending signs) will indeed "not pass" (Matt. 24:34) until Christ comes as King of kings and Lord of lords (Rev. 19:11-16).

I might also add that the generation that witnesses the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (Matt. 24:30/Rev. 6:15-16) will also be the generation that sees the Antichrist arise (e.g., Rev. 11:1-3ff, Matt. 24:15, II Thess. 2:4, Dan. 9:27) and the fulfillment of Daniel's 70th Week (Rev. 11-19), which shapes up to begin some few months afterward.  This being the case, the fulfillment of Daniel's 70th Week could certainly be seen as being part of the "all these things" (Matt. 24:33) as well.  Just saying...  

Edited February 1, 2023 by not an echo

[not an echo]

On 3/20/2021 at 7:03 AM, Diaste said:

Still have to deal the prophesy as a whole. All is truth and all is important and one truth cannot and should not be elevated over another truth, nor can one truth be ignored in favor of another. Every fact must be accounted for and fit harmoniously into the story. The entire body of facts lead to a true conclusion and a conclusion must never be put before the facts.

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Concerning my thoughts on "this generation,"  I had aimed to get there by now, but now I've got to go drive my school bus route.   And, I got interrupted to BIG times before I really got started today.   Maybe my thoughts just need a bit more seasoning...

Now Diaste, I wager that you know right well that I would agree wholeheartedly with your statement .  Our goal must be to deal with it, or interpret it so that our understanding is in harmony with all of Scripture.  And, while you may not like my song, I submit that it is in tune with Scripture---and a lot better tune than some other songs I've heard.  I was thinking of saying a tiny something more, but our Father said enough is enough.  I will wager once more that you know right well what I was thinking...

[not an echo]

On 3/20/2021 at 9:44 AM, Diaste said:

On 3/19/2021 at 9:04 PM, not an echo said:

Back for a little while anyway.  I'm minded to go in a little different direction this time than I have before in response to similar, as there are a few different directions that I have on my mind.

When it comes to linguistics, sound doctrine, and the study of prophecy, I believe we are both aware that we all have to guard against eschatological biases.  Even the translators have to guard against such, and still, there are evidences of such showing up.

When we have come to be convinced of a certain position, it is quite natural to bask in the discovery (even if supposed) that it will continue to hold up under careful scrutiny.  Further, if it seems that there is a want of support from this translation or that, it is easy to dismiss some in favor of others.  And, if worse comes to worse, what can we discover from the lexicons?  My observation has been that if one looks long enough and hard enough, what is being looked for can be found some way, some how.  Hey, Satan is in the mix of all this too!  We can't forget this.  And, I never do.

Curiously, with all the scholarship that is in the fray, scholarship is wrestling with it all as much as it ever has, if not more.  I'm reminded of what Paul said to Timothy of some, who are "Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth" (II Tim. 3:7).  Some of the most noted, quoted, and accomplished scholars on the face of the earth believe we evolved from lifeless muck.  And it matters not the side of the fence, scholarship will be there.  What's the deal?  The foundation of the scholarship.  Jesus spoke to that.  He said, "If ye continue in My Word, then are ye my disciples indeed;  And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (Jn. 8:31b-32).  The night before He was crucified, He said to the disciples, "Howbeit, when He, the Spirit of Truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth:  for He shall not speak of Himself;  but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak:  and He will shew you things to come" (Jn. 16:13).  Of course, there's more.  And realize Diaste, I'm not saying these things because I think you may not be aware.  I'm saying these things because I want you (and all) to know that I am aware.

Before I move to my next reply, if things were turned around and the New Testament had been penned in English and we were Greeks, imagine what we could do with a Collegiate Webster's (not to mention the Internet).  Moreover, we are very keenly aware to the realization that there's much more to sentences and paragraphs than the definition of one or two particular words or phrases.  And me, I'm still working on getting me ole English down,  so you'll have to pardon me on some things!

Having said all this, I think for now, where the water really meets the wheel in our discussion of late may revolve around "this generation" (Matt. 24:32-35, esp. vs. 34) and what I am going to do with that, in relation to my position(s).  But first, I got some other callings...

This all just casts doubt. I my case it's not going to be effective. I have heard from the learned people again and again. I listen on a weekly basis to any number of current experts. In 99% of the lectures on this topic it always begins with the premise a rapture exists and it's pretrib. On the foundation of false assumption the house is built. The scholars are expertly trained and adroit concerning internal consistency, but it yields no fruit. 

Show the illogical whack at timing and the whole house crumbles. Why? Scripture refutes them again and again. Two places show timing and it's not in the classic rapture verses. Matt 24 and 2 Thessalonians refute the idea of pretrib as it's the only truth of timing in the whole of the Word. And it's after the A of D. 

You'll see. We all will.

Just realize afresh that I am not in the camp of those who hold to the common pre-trib view, other than I do believe the rapture will occur pre-trib, or, as I prefer to say it, pre-Daniel's 70th Week.  Mine is a Totally Different Pre-Daniel's 70th Week Rapture Interpretation (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/253935-a-totally-different-pre-daniels-70th-week-rapture-interpretation/).  Concerning Matthew 24, you know that according to the common pre-trib view, none of Jesus' Olivet Discourse pertains to the rapture, and many go further than that and say that none of it pertains to the NT Church.  With this, I am in stark disagreement, and I deal with this (I believe fairly) in my thread, Rightly Dividing Jesus' Olivet Discourse (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/252817-rightly-dividing-jesus-olivet-discourse/).

About forgot, II Thessalonians 2 holds a wonderful pre-Daniel's 70th Week prophecy.  I can't believe the scholars of the common pre-trib persuasion have went in the direction that they have with it.  For times sake, I will just reference the first four verses, with my clarifying notes:

1  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him (at the rapture),

2  That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the Day of CHRIST (His Second Advent) is as hand.

 3  Let no man deceive you by any means:  for THAT DAY (His Second Advent) shall not come, except there be a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

 4  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped;  so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God (whole verse dovetails with Matt. 24:15, Dan. 9:27, and Rev. 11:1-3, esp. vs. 1).

Got to turn in for the night...

Edited February 1, 2023 by not an echo
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[Diaste]

On 3/21/2021 at 5:54 PM, The Light said:

I guess I just forgot that you were wearing the blinders of replacement theology. You would think that stuff would have went away when God restored Israel as a nation. It spreads like a cancer with no regard to the scripture, and hangs it hat on "there is not Jew nor Greek". Can't tell you enough times...IT'S ALL ABOUT TIMING. You are running with the end result without taking into account the timing of the events.

 

If I am engaging in replacement theology I doing it properly by replacing man's vision of the 'church' with the Lord's idea of His faithful congregation.

The Israel of faith is the church. Converted Gentiles to Jesus Christ are brought into faithful Israel, the foundation of the true church, the natural olive tree.

[Diaste]

On 3/21/2021 at 3:11 PM, WilliamL said:

Much of your misunderstanding comes from this mistranslation of the passage. But apparently that is what you accept to be correct, so I'll just move along.

That's disappointing. 

[Diaste]

7 hours ago, not an echo said:

Now Diaste, I wager that you know right well that I would agree wholeheartedly with your statement .  Our goal must be to deal with it, or interpret it so that our understanding is in harmony with all of Scripture.  And, while you may not like my song, I submit that it is in tune with Scripture---and a lot better tune than some other songs I've heard.  I was thinking of saying a tiny something more, but our Father said enough is enough.  I will wager once more that you know right well what I was thinking...

I try not to assume what another person means until they explain. I was on the other side of that for many years and let me tell you it's emotionally draining. I still fight the residue of that after many years. I try my best not to do it to others.

I'm not playing a game or pretending, I promise.

[Brother Duke]

On 3/21/2021 at 7:54 PM, The Light said:

I guess I just forgot that you were wearing the blinders of replacement theology. You would think that stuff would have went away when God restored Israel as a nation. It spreads like a cancer with no regard to the scripture, and hangs it hat on "there is not Jew nor Greek". Can't tell you enough times...IT'S ALL ABOUT TIMING. You are running with the end result without taking into account the timing of the events.

John 10

¹⁵ As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

¹⁶ And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

You say we are all one fold and that's correct but you seem to ignore the timing of the two folds into one fold.

Hos 9

¹⁰ I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

God saw the fathers of the Jews as the first ripe of the fig tree at her first time. In other words He saw the Jews as the first harvest but they served other Gods so the Gentiles will become the first harvest. Learn the parable of the fig tree. It has two harvests, and the Church will be the first harvest. 

According to the Word of God, there will be two raptures. The Church will be raptured pretrib and the 12 tribes across the earth, the seed of the woman, will be raptured prewrath.

Replacement theology is a great new topic.  I think quite the opposite.  The Gentiles replacing Israel is actually the true replacement theology.  The gentiles do not replace Israel but are grafted in with Israel.  God saves Israel the people not the land.  We are all grafted in together and known as Israel.  Jew, Greek and Gentile believers.

[Diaste]

On 3/22/2021 at 7:23 PM, not an echo said:

This being the case, the fulfillment of Daniel's 70th Week could certainly be seen as being part of the "all these things" (Matt. 24:33) as well.  Just saying...  

Yes. And nothing prohibits 'all these things' from including the birth pangs. In truth it looks to me like the Olivet Discourse is a seamless comprehensive treatise on the end of the age and it's fulfillment at the existence of the terminal generation.

[Diaste]

On 3/22/2021 at 11:24 AM, not an echo said:

If in my understanding, I had it all pecked up, it might be rightly said that I have attacked it "with an ice pick."  But, my understanding is very clean.  I am basically doing one thing---understanding verses 29-51 as having to do with the intersecting event of Christ's Sign Appearance.

                

As the above shows, in His Olivet Discourse, Jesus speaks concerning the Church Era, then of Daniel's 70th Week, then of the intersecting event of His Sign Appearance (and the rapture), which will come in between.  This means that those living when the rapture takes place (which may be us!) will have been living in the days that the end of the era of the Church actually converges with the time just preceding Daniel's 70th Week.  Hence, when Jesus begins to speak concerning the event of His Sign Appearance (Matt. 24:30) and makes the statement, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days" (Matt. 24:29), He can easily be referring to the days of the Church Era and the tribulation that He had spoken of in the first section of His discourse.  In accord with what I put forth in the opening post of this thread, this would be the tribulation effected by the horsemen of the first four seals.

Except dispensationalism is a farce, replacement theology is worse than that, and the great tribulation is the effect of the A of D that is associated with the return of Jesus and the gathering. Now if it could be shown with evidence, apart from the opinion of the pulpit, that an A of D as described by Daniel in chapters 9, 11 and 12 occurred post ascension, or post 70 AD, or in any case in ancient times after Jesus walked the earth in the 1st century, then maybe I could adjust my thinking. 

Problem is the last A of D as recorded by Daniel and in Jewish history occurred in 167 BC and nothing in between then and March 2021 ergo, GT has not yet begun. Tribulation, distress, hard times, yes. But the GT associated with the A of D as described by Daniel, spoken of by Jesus in the 1s century, and associated directly with His coming? No.