The First Seal and the Horseman on the White Horse

[grumix8]

Very hard to see well the white hosre for scholars it's the white horse the messiah ? or some say he is the A false messiah A white rider who is opposite. That is why it's hard revelations for some who recieve visions and dreams in its synthesis dream has it's own language and visions too and they mean different means. The way it explains itself shows A way G-d does it secret way and how G-d explain his dream and visions to his prophets revealing his will in them is A secret way. We see in the end.

[Diaste]

16 hours ago, not an echo said:

Hello Diaste,

I think of my life Scripture and would encourage you with it, from Proverbs 3:

 5  Trust in the LORD with all thine heart;  and lean not unto thine own understanding.

 6  In all thy ways acknowledge Him, and He shall direct thy paths.

Indeed. 

There's a discussion about this on Worthy.

Several dogmatic stances on the rapture exist. If there is only one rapture then only one is correct. So which one leans on the Lord for the truth?

[Diaste]

15 hours ago, not an echo said:

A curious thing for me is that it seems you kinda hold me in contempt at my every mention of the Church.  Wish I understood a little more of what the undercurrent is all about.  Is there something that I have said (me personally) that is a flag for you, or is it something that I haven't said?  I'm kinda feeling that we are probably more in agreement than we are otherwise, but there is still something in the mix that I haven't quite picked up on.  Know this---I embrace every Word of God on the subject...

I apologize. That is not my intent. In general I find the modern definition of the 'church' to be lacking. It's like the letters to the churches in Revelation in a way. Some good, some bad. But Revelation speaks to the true church and not the accepted modern entity of today. 

What we see today is a haunt of motivational speakers and prosperity hawkers. 

The Most High God is the pillar and ground of the truth, not the church. 

[not an echo]

On 4/10/2021 at 3:56 AM, Diaste said:

Quote

Concerning the rest of your reply, I remain curious concerning how you make the fit complete of Joel 1 with Revelation 8.  I'm wondering what it would be like for us if we sit down over a cup of coffee and a scenery puzzle.  I'm thinking that I might have to keep an eye on you, lest you try to make a piece go where it doesn't belong.  But, I would be nice, I promise.

I have posted this on a few occasions in other topics but I don't remember where so here goes:

Joel 1

"Grain and drink offerings have been cut off from the house of the LORD;

the priests are in mourning, those who minister before the LORD.

[This is the A of D at the midpoint.]

The field is ruined; the land mourns.

For the grain is destroyed, the new wine is dried up, and the oil fails.

Be dismayed, O farmers, wail, O vinedressers, over the wheat and barley, because the harvest of the field has perished.

The grapevine is dried up, and the fig tree is withered; the pomegranate, palm, and apple—all the trees of the orchard—are withered."

[From Joel 1 above we see the harvest is gone and the trees have been affected.]

Rev 8

Then the first angel sounded his trumpet, and hail and fire mixed with blood were hurled down upon the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, along with a third of the trees and all the green grass.

[All the food grains: oats, wheat, barley, rice, even corn are grasses. At the 1^st trump they are all gone, just like Joel 1.]

Joel 1

Put on sackcloth and lament, O priests; wail, O ministers of the altar. Come, spend the night in sackcloth, O ministers of my God, because the grain and drink offerings are withheld from the house of your God.

[Joel again says the A of D has happened, just as Daniel spoke about it.]

Alas for the day! For the Day of the LORD is near, and it will come as destruction from the Almighty. Has not the food been cut off before our very eyes—joy and gladness from the house of our God?

[Now Joel says the Day of the Lord is near and the food is already gone, while seeming to reference the A of D again.]

 

To You, O LORD, I call, for fire has consumed the open pastures and flames have scorched all the trees of the field. Even the beasts of the field pant for You, for the streams of water have dried up, and fire has consumed the open pastures.

[Here Joel is telling us the pastures are gone, and the water. Twice Joel says 'fire has consumed the open pastures' just in two verses. There is little doubt about the timing of this as Joel repeatedly speaks to the A of D as having occurred and the yet to come, but near, Day of the Lord.]

Rev 8

Then the first angel sounded his trumpet, and hail and fire mixed with blood were hurled down upon the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, along with a third of the trees and all the green grass.

[I don’t think the bold part above is similar to Joel 1, it’s exactly what Joel is saying more than once in the 1^st chapter; "...fire has consumed the open pastures..."]

Then the third angel sounded his trumpet, and a great star burning like a torch fell from heaven and landed on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water. The name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters turned bitter like wormwood oil, and many people died from the bitter waters.

[This isn't as perfect a fit for Joel 1, "...the streams of water have dried up..." but an association can be made as the water is no longer life giving, effectively 'dried up'. There is little doubt this is the the end of the age around the time of the A of D but before the Day of the Lord; Joel plainly says exactly that. He also says all the grain is destroyed, there is no harvest of wheat and barley, and the pastures have been consumed by fire. What other possible event could he be referencing that is associated with the end of the age and the Day of the Lord?

So this gives us all the timing we need and puts things in order. The 1st trump, and possibly the 3rd, has sounded by the midpoint and before the day of the Lord. Since this is undeniable it means the trumps are sounding in conjunction with the seals opening. It's clear at this point in Joel's prophecy we are at the midpoint and the 3rd seal is opened and the 1st trump has sounded.

Since the 1st trump destroys the food and the 3rd seal is either economic control or catastrophic scarcity, it's safe to conclude the destruction of the harvest is the reason for a loaf of bread costing a day's wage. Joel lays out the order and timing quite nicely, don't you agree? No, you probably won't as this changes everything for you.

So as I have said many times; the seals and trumps occur in a successive concurrence culminating in the confluence of the 6th seal and 7th trump. {Well, that's the first time I said it like that :)} Joel supports this with the prophecy of the 1st trump already sounded at the time of the A of D and before the Day of the Lord.]

Hello Diaste,

Now, I'm thinking, "Wow, if I had of posted something like this in response to Diaste, he would have had a field day with it."  Where do you get all this?  For openers, you said...

     "I have posted this on a few occasions in other topics but I don't remember where so here goes:

     Joel 1

     "Grain and drink offerings have been cut off from the house of the LORD;

     the priests are in mourning, those who minister before the LORD.

    [This is the A of D at the midpoint.]"

So, as you would say, "Where does the Bible say, [This is the A of D at the midpoint.]?"  All I can gather is that you are thinking that because the "Grain and drink offerings have been cut off from the house of the LORD..."  that this must be on account of the A of D.  Only thing is, what is looming on Judah's horizon has nothing to do with the A of D and everything to do with the Day of the LORD.  The A of D is not even alluded to anywhere in Joel's prophecy---neither in "the day of the LORD" that was "at hand" (1:15) or the "day of the LORD" that would "come to pass afterward" (2:28, 31).  The grain and drink offerings being here "cut off" has nothing to do with the activity of the A of D, but everything to do with there not being anything left to offer---it has all been destroyed.  Consider the following from chapter 1:

 5  Awake, ye drunkards, and weep;  and howl, all ye drinkers of wine, because of the new wine;  for it is CUT OFF from your mouth.

Why is it cut off?  Because...

 4  That which the palmerworm hath left hath the locust eaten;  and that which the locust hath left hath the cankerworm eaten;  and that which the cankerworm hath left hath the caterpiller eaten.

While I'm desirous to move on, I would add these few other notes concerning your post as a whole:  Any similarity between what is effected by the worms/locust (1:4) and/or "nation" (1:6) of Joel's prophecy and the sounding of the 1st Trumpet is like pieces of a puzzle that have an element of similarly, but don't fit.  As I said in my post, if we were sitting down over coffee and working on a puzzle, I would have to---well, you know. 

As the book of Joel opens, his prophecy revolves around what is looming over the land of Israel ("my land"/1:6).  In contrast, in the context of the trumpet judgments, the first four trumpets are impacting "the third part" of the earth (Rev. 8:7-12).  There are major differences here in both the extent, the cause, and more.

You repeatedly say things like "There is little doubt" and "Joel plainly says exactly that" and "Since this is undeniable" and "It's clear" and "it's safe to conclude" concerning things that aren't even so.

Diaste, you know how you have responded to similar that others have posted in the past.  You have surprised me...

Edited February 2, 2023 by not an echo

[not an echo]

On 4/10/2021 at 4:05 AM, Diaste said:

On 4/9/2021 at 1:36 AM, not an echo said:

Not sure if I'm catching how your question relates to the above portion of my post.  But, if I'm reading you right, an example of what you are alluding to may have to do with my thoughts concerning the first four trumpets, the sphere shape of the earth, and the possible destruction of what is in our Western Hemisphere.

This is probably for another time and place but how does this work for Rev 1?

Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him—even those who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. So shall it be! Amen.

All the tribes of the earth? Aren't you saying some have been destroyed and only a small portion of the earth is populated? I get the hemisphere argument but I don't see where half the earth is depopulated in an entire hemisphere.

Not for sure what you are not getting, but I will try to clarify a little.  First of all, if what is in our Western Hemisphere is destroyed (North and South America and half of Antarctica), this would represent one-third of the land area of the earth to within less than one percentage point.  The population of our side of the earth is just a fraction of the population of the earth.  So, with our side of the earth essentially out of the picture, much more than "a small portion" of the population of the earth would remain.  I just Goggled the population of South America (422.5 million) and North America (579 million).  As can be seen, the population of these combined is just a hair over one billion, which is less than 1/7th of the population of the earth (7.674 billion/2019).

Interestingly, if at the time of Christ's Second Advent, there are no survivors on our side of the earth, the only remaining eyes on the face of the earth will be on the other side of the earth---on Israel's side of the earth.  A point that I have often made is that just as the sun at noon time in Israel can be seen by every eye (simultaneously) in Israel's hemisphere, so will THE SON be seen by "every eye" when He comes again as King of kings and Lord of lords.  Realizing all of the foregoing can take the mystery away from how every eye will simultaneously see Christ at His Second Advent (Rev. 1:7).  Now, I may be wrong, but there is nothing here that conflicts with Scripture.  Rather, it is all supported by Scripture and gives some very interesting insight into the possibilities of a world stage reset for the fulfilling of Daniel's 70th Week, so that the focus is brought to bear upon Israel and the lands of the Bible days---ONCE MORE---as during the first 69 weeks.  Even when I say this is interesting or even very interesting, I see these as huge understatements.

As far as your question concerning "All the tribes of the earth",  are you thinking that there might not be 144,000 Jews, 12,000 from each tribe, to be found in Israel's hemisphere at the time of the opening of the 6th Seal?

Just thought about them four horsemen   Though the white horse (with its rider) of the 1st Seal has kicked up its fair share of dust over the centuries (and is chomping at the bits), I think the black horse (with its rider) of the 3rd Seal is kicking up the most dust presently.  Especially in India...

Edited February 2, 2023 by not an echo

[Diaste]

8 hours ago, not an echo said:

Not for sure what you are not getting, but I will try to clarify a little.  First of all, if what is in our Western Hemisphere is destroyed (North and South America and half of Antarctica), this would represent one-third of the land area of the earth to within less than one percentage point.  The population of our side of the earth is just a fraction of the population of the earth.  So, with our side of the earth essentially out of the picture, much more than "a small portion" of the population of the earth would remain.  I just Goggled the population of South America (422.5 million) and North America (579 million).  As can be seen, the population of these combined is just a hair over one billion, which is less than 1/7th of the population of the earth (7.674 billion/2019).

Yes, but this could be found by parceling out other regions as well.

8 hours ago, not an echo said:

Interestingly, if at the time of Christ's Second Coming, there are no survivors on our side of the earth, the only remaining eyes on the face of the earth will be on the other side of the earth---on Israel's side of the earth.  A point that I have often made is that just as the sun at noon time in Israel can be seen by every eye (simultaneously) in Israel's hemisphere, so will THE SON be seen by "every eye" when He comes again as King of kings and Lord of lords.  Realizing all of the foregoing can take the mystery away from how every eye will simultaneously see Christ at His Second Coming (Rev. 1:7).  Now, I may be wrong, but there is nothing here that conflicts with Scripture.  Rather, it is all supported by Scripture and gives some very interesting insight into the possibilities of a world stage reset for the fulfilling of Daniel's 70th Week, so that the focus is brought to bear upon Israel and the lands of the Bible days---ONCE MORE---as during the first 69 weeks.  Even when I say this is interesting or even very interesting, I see these as huge understatements.

How is it that 'no conflicts with scripture' equals the truth of scripture? And then you  say 'it doesn't conflict' then say 'it's supported'. They are not the same thing. So is it supported or merely at a silent standoff?

8 hours ago, not an echo said:

As far as your question concerning "All the tribes of the earth,"  are you thinking that there might not be 144,000 Jews, 12,000 from each tribe, to be found in Israel's hemisphere at the time of the opening of the 6th Seal?

Scripture says, all the tribes of the earth. That would be more than just the tribes of Israel. Are you thinking some tribes are eliminated in the Hemisphere Theory? So you're reading the scripture to mean 'all' is defined as 'what's left'? I guess I always thought it meant 'all' and no east, west, north or south hemisphere was devoid of mankind at the time Jesus appeared.

The answer to your question is, "No".  The 144,000 will be where ever they are. Scripture isn't dogmatic about their location when they are sealed or caught up. If we wax unequivocal here we are outside what the Word says. For instance, a tribal Israeli male virgin could be born anywhere in the world. Ben Shapiro is quite proud of the fact he remained a virgin till marriage in his early 20's; he was born in the US and lives in Florida. I used to think all these sealed from the 12 tribes would be quite young, maybe no older than 13-14. But that's just speculation on my part. There are much older Israeli tribal male virgins.

The other problem is where these tribes are. The US has a population of Jews equal to Israel and Jews are found on all continents. Now not all of them can be descended from the 12 tribes as many are probably converts. To this day no one is sure where the tribes went or how far they spread. The Jews say they know and I have no reason to doubt them. But to limit the tribes to one region of earth is purely dogmatic. 

And even then I don't see in scripture where 1/3 of the population is killed all contained in a single region of earth. Maybe, but I don't see it.

8 hours ago, not an echo said:

Just thought about them four horsemen   Though the white horse (with its rider) of the 1st Seal has kicked up its fair share of dust over the centuries (and is chomping at the bits), I think the black horse (with its rider) of the 3rd Seal is kicking up the most dust presently.  Especially in India...

The first seal is the beast and probably after he is wounded and healed and receives power and authority from the dragon, about 3 years before he declares himself god. 

[Diaste]

10 hours ago, not an echo said:

Hello Diaste,

Now, I'm thinking, "Wow, if I had of posted something like this in response to Diaste, he would have had a field day with it."  Where do you get all this?  For openers, you said...

     I have posted this on a few occasions in other topics but I don't remember where so here goes:

     Joel 1

     "Grain and drink offerings have been cut off from the house of the LORD;

     the priests are in mourning, those who minister before the LORD.

    [This is the A of D at the midpoint.]

So, as you would say, "Where does the Bible say, [This is the A of D at the midpoint.]?  All I can gather is that you are thinking that because the "Grain and drink offerings have been cut off from the house of the LORD..."  that this must be on account of the A of D.  Only thing is, what is looming on Judah's horizon has nothing to do with the A of D and everything to do with the Day of the LORD.  The A of D is not even alluded to anywhere in Joel's prophecy---neither in "the day of the LORD" that was "at hand" (1:15) or the "day of the LORD" that would "come to pass afterward" (2:28, 31).  The grain and drink offerings being here "cut off" has nothing to do with the activity of the A of D, but everything to do with there not being anything left to offer---it has all been destroyed.  Consider the following from chapter 1:

Astute observation. The logic here fits with what I said about Joel's prophecy as related to the end of the age and the return of Jesus. If you remember I parallel Joel 1 with Matt 24 and the seals and trumps of Rev. So...if it's due to scarcity then it's the result of the 1st trump destroying all the green grass which are the cereal grains used in the oblation. Daniel says the sacrifice and oblation are stopped at the midpoint. At the most basic the zebach is an offering of thanksgiving and the minchah is a meal offering on the order of the fruit of the ground like Cain offered up. This scarcity in my mind is the reason the sacrifice and oblation is stopped by the beast as there is scarcity and this practice is seen as wasteful when people are starving and dying of thirst due to the calamities of the trumps. 

You say it's not the beast but a dearth and a matter of practicality but this is exactly what the beast does in Dan 9: "and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,"

Recalling what Joel said the 1st trump [burns up ALL the green grass] has sounded at the time this calamity concerning the house of God has occurred:

The field is ruined; the land mourns. For the grain is destroyed,

wail, O vinedressers, over the wheat and barley, because the harvest of the field has perished. - Joel 1:10-11

Joel tells us how this happened:

the grain has withered away.

for fire has consumed the open pastures

and flames have scorched all the trees of the field.

for the streams of water have dried up,

and fire has consumed the open pastures. - Joel 1:17-20

Maybe you'll say, "Aha, this is the pastures and not the fields of grain!" But Joel says, "for the grain has withered away." telling us it's dried up, not eaten by locusts or worms. Also the flames have scorched all the trees. That's a wide ranging flame and to my mind indiscriminate as to trees, pastures or grasses.

So the 1st trump has sounded here at the time when the sacrifice and oblation has ceased, which is associated strongly with the act of the beast and near to the day of the Lord which Joel says is near. This isn't outrageous at all.

And yes, I inquire perpetually about direct evidence but I do not abhor conclusions based on factual premises and deduction.  I do that all the time. I present scriptural premises and conclude from there. The problems arise when the case is weakened by non scriptural premises. 

 

10 hours ago, not an echo said:

 5  Awake, ye drunkards, and weep;  and howl, all ye drinkers of wine, because of the new wine;  for it is CUT OFF from your mouth.

Why is it cut off?  Because...

 4  That which the palmerworm hath left hath the locust eaten;  and that which the locust hath left hath the cankerworm eaten;  and that which the cankerworm hath left hath the caterpiller eaten.

Sure, but it's not how you see it. Joel 1:4 is analogous to Joel 1:6-7. The destruction of v.7 is likened to the effects of the pestilence of the locusts and worms. 

"He hath laid my vine waste, and barked my fig tree: he hath made it clean bare, and cast [it] away; the branches thereof are made white."

And this 'he' did it with this;

"For a nation is come up upon my land, strong, and without number, whose teeth [are] the teeth of a lion, and he hath the cheek teeth of a great lion."

10 hours ago, not an echo said:

While I'm desirous to move on, I would add these few other notes concerning your post as a whole:  Any similarity between what is effected by the worms/locust (1:4) and/or "nation" (1:6) of Joel's prophecy and the sounding of the 1st Trumpet is like pieces of a puzzle that have an element of similarly, but don't fit.  As I said in my post, if we were sitting down over coffee and working on a puzzle, I would have to---well, you know. 

Won't fit? It's the similarities that allow the fit. When detectives are faced with solving a crime you know what they do? They go check out known perps who have committed similar crimes involving the same M.O. We use this sort of deductive and inductive reasoning in our daily lives multiple times a day. Suddenly when it comes to scripture and prophecy dissimilarities are the raison d'etre. And it's not just you, I have seen it many, many times. 

10 hours ago, not an echo said:

As the book of Joel opens, his prophecy revolves around what is looming over the land of Israel ("my land"/1:6).  In contrast, in the context of the trumpet judgments, the first four trumpets are impacting "the third part" of the earth (Rev. 8:7-12).  There are major differences here in both the extent, the cause, and more.

But this idea is based on the premise you have conjured. Let's see what the 1st trump affects:

"Then the first angel sounded his trumpet, and hail and fire mixed with blood were hurled down upon the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, along with a third of the trees and all the green grass"

This is not limited to 1/3 of the earth. It's "all the green grass" and "a third of the trees". Both of these are along with "A third of the earth was burned" not limiting the area of the burned trees and the grass. 

greenfacts.org says, "Total forest area in 2005 was estimated to be around 30% of the planet’s land area," That means far less than 1/3 of the earth would have to be affected for this to come to pass. 

Further:

"Among world regions, Europe (which, for the purpose of this assessment includes the Russian Federation) accounts for one-quarter of total forest area, followed by South America and then North and Central America. South America is the region with the highest percentage of forest cover (almost half of the land area) and Asia is the region with the lowest percentage of forest cover (less than 20% of land area)."

That doesn't fit well with the Hemisphere Theory. Russia alone accounts for 1/4 of the trees. Most of it could be limited to that region. It's more sensible to think this 1/3 of trees is an even distribution occurring during the burning of ALL the grass.

Then the second angel sounded his trumpet, and something like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea. A third of the sea turned to blood, 9a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed.

10Then the third angel sounded his trumpet, and a great star burning like a torch fell from heaven and landed on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water. 11The name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters turned bitter like wormwood oil,a and many people died from the bitter waters.

Then the fourth angel sounded his trumpet, and a third of the sun and moon and stars were struck. A third of the stars were darkened, a third of the day was without light, and a third of the night as well.

Niether are these trumps limited to a region of the earth equal to 1/3 of the earth. The text says:

A third of the sea, a third of the living creatures, a third of the ships, a third of the rivers,  A third of the waters, a third of the sun, A third of the stars, a third of the day, a third of the night.  Only does the first trump say 1/3 of the earth was burned, the rest of the trumps affect 1/3 of groups of everything but the earth and they are not limited by region. The text does not say this isn't a even distribution throughout the earth. You do, the text does not. It could be limited but it's not proven by Rev 8.

10 hours ago, not an echo said:

You repeatedly say things like "There is little doubt" and "Joel plainly says exactly that" and "Since this is undeniable" and "It's clear" and "it's safe to conclude" concerning things that aren't even so.

Diaste, you know how you have responded to similar that others have posted in the past.  You have surprised me...

This is true. But it ain't often I wax unequivocal about prophecy and it's generally limited to one or two major points: the gathering and Jesus return, and the successive/concurrent nature of Revelation. 

I'm not arguing from silence here nor are conclusions rendered from premises that do not exist in the source material, and I can post scripture in support.

 

[iamlamad]

On 4/2/2020 at 11:09 PM, not an echo said:

According to the opening verses of The Revelation, it is quite evident that John was shown things that were "at hand" to begin to take place (Rev. 1:1-3).  The Revelation is his record of what he saw, and he was told to send this, with specific messages, to the seven churches that were in Asia (Rev. 1:10-11), which he did (Rev. 2-3).  Just before he was shown what would be taking place, he is called up "in the spirit" to Heaven and allowed to behold God on His throne (Rev. 4).  John then tells of a book he saw in God's right hand, which was sealed with seven seals, and of an event that takes place in which the Lamb (Jesus Christ) alone is found worthy to have charge of it (Rev. 5).  The beginning of what was about to start taking place related to the opening of the seals of the Seven Sealed Book, a book that could rightly be entitled THE DAY OF THE LORD.  The seals of this book pertain to the post-apostolic era of the Church and what is slated to take place before the Day of the Lord will begin (Rev. 6-7).

In harmony with Scripture, and testified to by history, Christ opened the first four seals late in the first century, granting to Satan the certain liberties that he (Satan) has been given to continue the plying of his craft into and during the era of the Church, also known as the Church Age.  Satan would have absolutely no liberties otherwise.  These liberties are exercised by his henchmen, the four horsemen of the first four seals, and these horsemen have been riding down through the corridors of Church history even unto our day, doing just what they have been insatiably bent on doing.  Their activity is responsible for the things Jesus warned of in the opening of His Olivet Discourse, things that have characterized every century of the Christian era.  Let's look a little closer at the opening of the 1st Seal and its horseman.  Consider, from Revelation 6:

1   And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.

  2   And I saw, and behold a white horse:  and he that sat on him had a bow;  and a crown was given unto him:  and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

A prevailing interpretation of this rider on the white horse is that he is a counterfeit and a deceiver or a false Christ.  Some believe this to be the Antichrist.  Thinking along these lines, it should not be too hard to envision this rider being akin to "that spirit of antichrist" that John spoke of in I John 4:1-3, of which he says, "and even now already is it in the world."  Paul spoke similarly to the Thessalonians, saying, "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work" (II Thess. 2:7a).

Now, notice Jesus' Olivet Discourse.  He began by informing His disciples (the pillars of His Church) that there would be deceivers and false Christs who would come.  From Matthew's account, in chapter 24, we read:

  4   And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

  5   For many shall come in My name, saying, I am Christ;  and shall deceive many.

Jesus had warned His disciples of this several decades prior to John's receiving of The Revelation.  Taking into account these things with what history bears testimony to, it can be rightly suspected, and also concluded, that the underlying influence in the lives of the many deceivers and false Christ's who have come on the scene since the time of the apostles has been the horseman of the 1st Seal.  This being the case, it is not difficult to trace his activity down through the corridors of Church history to this present time as the bow wielding force behind the movements that have arisen to conquer the truth with arrows of deception.  Isn't it mind-boggling how many differing religious movements and distortions of the truth there are in the world today?

Consider this:  How long has Christ's Bride warned of deceivers and false Christs and tried to teach the truth and sound doctrine, only to have so many of Her efforts rode roughshod  over by something?  Does it not seem to you that something out there is constantly on a bend to stamp out anything of truth and virtue that has to do with the true Christian faith?  We all know that ultimately, that something is Satan.  But, with the opening of the 1st Seal, we have this liberty of his revealed as being exercised by one of his henchmen, the rider on the white horse.  While it has not been necessary for the Bride to realize this in order to serve Her Bridegroom, I do believe it is necessary for a correct understanding of His Revelation to Her.  I think of the song we have so long sung, "We'll work, till Jesus comes, we'll work, till Jesus comes, we'll work, till Jesus comes, and we'll be gathered home."  We must continue Christ's work until He comes to gather us home.  Be assured, this horseman is going to keep trampling on the truth, recognized or not.

Following are threads that I have concerning the other seals:

The Second Seal and the Horseman on the Red Horse (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/250725-the-second-seal-and-the-horseman-on-the-red-horse/).

The Third Seal and the Horseman on the Black Horse (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/250748-the-third-seal-and-the-horseman-on-the-black-horse/).

The Fourth Seal and the Horseman on the Pale Horse (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/250832-the-fourth-seal-and-the-horseman-on-the-pale-horse/).

The Fifth Seal and the Cry of the Martyrs (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/250955-the-fifth-seal-and-the-cry-of-the-martyrs/).

Also, these threads concern A Totally Different Pre-Daniel's 70th Week Rapture Interpretation that I have, where information concerning the other seals can be found.  Here is that link: (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/253935-a-totally-different-pre-daniels-70th-week-rapture-interpretation/).

 

The ONLY way to make this rider the Antichrist is to pull these verses from their context of around 32 AD. To understand the timing of the first seal, we must understand some things about chapters 4 & 5.

1. Why was Jesus not immediately seen at the right hand of the Father in chapter 4?

2. Why was Jesus not found worthy to take the book in that first search John saw?

3. Why was the Holy Spirit still there in the throne room (in a vision about 95 AD) when Jesus said that as soon as He ascended, He would send HIM down. 

The keys to understanding the timing of the first seal is written plainly in chapter 5, but SO FEW PEOPLE believe what John wrote - or they read over it without understanding the intent of the Author.

[not an echo]

23 hours ago, iamlamad said:

On 4/2/2020 at 11:09 PM, not an echo said:

According to the opening verses of The Revelation, it is quite evident that John was shown things that were "at hand" to begin to take place (Rev. 1:1-3).  The Revelation is his record of what he saw, and he was told to send this, with specific messages, to the seven churches that were in Asia (Rev. 1:10-11), which he did (Rev. 2-3).  Just before he was shown what would be taking place, he is called up "in the spirit" to Heaven and allowed to behold God on His throne (Rev. 4).  John then tells of a book he saw in God's right hand, which was sealed with seven seals, and of an event that takes place in which the Lamb (Jesus Christ) alone is found worthy to have charge of it (Rev. 5).  The beginning of what was about to start taking place related to the opening of the seals of the Seven Sealed Book, a book that could rightly be entitled THE DAY OF THE LORD.  The seals of this book pertain to the post-apostolic era of the Church and what is slated to take place before the Day of the Lord will begin (Rev. 6-7).

In harmony with Scripture, and testified to by history, Christ opened the first four seals late in the first century, granting to Satan the certain liberties that he (Satan) has been given to continue the plying of his craft into and during the era of the Church, also known as the Church Age.  Satan would have absolutely no liberties otherwise.  These liberties are exercised by his henchmen, the four horsemen of the first four seals, and these horsemen have been riding down through the corridors of Church history even unto our day, doing just what they have been insatiably bent on doing.  Their activity is responsible for the things Jesus warned of in the opening of His Olivet Discourse, things that have characterized every century of the Christian era.  Let's look a little closer at the opening of the 1st Seal and its horseman.  Consider, from Revelation 6:

1   And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.

  2   And I saw, and behold a white horse:  and he that sat on him had a bow;  and a crown was given unto him:  and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

A prevailing interpretation of this rider on the white horse is that he is a counterfeit and a deceiver or a false Christ.  Some believe this to be the Antichrist.  Thinking along these lines, it should not be too hard to envision this rider being akin to "that spirit of antichrist" that John spoke of in I John 4:1-3, of which he says, "and even now already is it in the world."  Paul spoke similarly to the Thessalonians, saying, "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work" (II Thess. 2:7a).

Now, notice Jesus' Olivet Discourse.  He began by informing His disciples (the pillars of His Church) that there would be deceivers and false Christs who would come.  From Matthew's account, in chapter 24, we read:

  4   And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

  5   For many shall come in My name, saying, I am Christ;  and shall deceive many.

Jesus had warned His disciples of this several decades prior to John's receiving of The Revelation.  Taking into account these things with what history bears testimony to, it can be rightly suspected, and also concluded, that the underlying influence in the lives of the many deceivers and false Christ's who have come on the scene since the time of the apostles has been the horseman of the 1st Seal.  This being the case, it is not difficult to trace his activity down through the corridors of Church history to this present time as the bow wielding force behind the movements that have arisen to conquer the truth with arrows of deception.  Isn't it mind-boggling how many differing religious movements and distortions of the truth there are in the world today?

Consider this:  How long has Christ's Bride warned of deceivers and false Christs and tried to teach the truth and sound doctrine, only to have so many of Her efforts rode roughshod  over by something?  Does it not seem to you that something out there is constantly on a bend to stamp out anything of truth and virtue that has to do with the true Christian faith?  We all know that ultimately, that something is Satan.  But, with the opening of the 1st Seal, we have this liberty of his revealed as being exercised by one of his henchmen, the rider on the white horse.  While it has not been necessary for the Bride to realize this in order to serve Her Bridegroom, I do believe it is necessary for a correct understanding of His Revelation to Her.  I think of the song we have so long sung, "We'll work, till Jesus comes, we'll work, till Jesus comes, we'll work, till Jesus comes, and we'll be gathered home."  We must continue Christ's work until He comes to gather us home.  Be assured, this horseman is going to keep trampling on the truth, recognized or not.

Following are threads that I have concerning the other seals:

The Second Seal and the Horseman on the Red Horse (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/250725-the-second-seal-and-the-horseman-on-the-red-horse/).

The Third Seal and the Horseman on the Black Horse (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/250748-the-third-seal-and-the-horseman-on-the-black-horse/).

The Fourth Seal and the Horseman on the Pale Horse (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/250832-the-fourth-seal-and-the-horseman-on-the-pale-horse/).

The Fifth Seal and the Cry of the Martyrs (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/250955-the-fifth-seal-and-the-cry-of-the-martyrs/).

Also, these threads concern A Totally Different Pre-Daniel's 70th Week Rapture Interpretation that I have, where information concerning the other seals can be found.  Here is that link: (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/253935-a-totally-different-pre-daniels-70th-week-rapture-interpretation/).

 

The ONLY way to make this rider the Antichrist is to pull these verses from their context of around 32 AD. To understand the timing of the first seal, we must understand some things about chapters 4 & 5.

1. Why was Jesus not immediately seen at the right hand of the Father in chapter 4?

2. Why was Jesus not found worthy to take the book in that first search John saw?

3. Why was the Holy Spirit still there in the throne room (in a vision about 95 AD) when Jesus said that as soon as He ascended, He would send HIM down. 

The keys to understanding the timing of the first seal is written plainly in chapter 5, but SO FEW PEOPLE believe what John wrote - or they read over it without understanding the intent of the Author.

Hello iamlamad,

Concerning your opening statement, I am not seeing this rider as the Antichrist, but rather, as the spirit of the Antichrist.  Not sure if you caught this on what you quoted of me.  Hope you will look at what I said again.

As I see it, a key to understanding the timing of what we find in "chapters 4 & 5" revolves around the word "hereafter" in Revelation 4:1.  I kinda hear what you are saying in 1. and 2., but I don't see the conclusions you arrived at as necessary.  For me, it is easier to think in terms of Jesus' presence not being made immediately known to John until it was time.  The charge of the Seven Sealed Book being given to the Lamb was the main event of the event.  I'm thinking, "Yeah, He was there alright, and everyone else in Heaven KNEW IT!"   And, I can imagine everyone eagerly looking to see what John's expression would be---when He saw Him!

Concerning your 3., not sure where you are coming from here.  My first thought is that your take on this would be in conflict with the omnipresence of the Holy Spirit.

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, not an echo said:

Hello iamlamad,

Concerning your opening statement, I am not seeing this rider as the Antichrist, but rather, as the spirit of the Antichrist.  Not sure if you caught this on what you quoted of me.  Hope you will look at what I said again.

As I see it, a key to understanding the timing of what we find in "chapters 4 & 5" revolves around the word "hereafter" in Revelation 4:1.  I kinda hear what you are saying in 1. and 2., but I don't see the conclusions you arrived at as necessary.  For me, it is easier to think in terms of Jesus' presence not being made immediately known to John until it was time.  The charge of the Seven Sealed Book being given to the Lamb was the main event of the event.  I'm thinking, "Yeah, He was there alright, and everyone else in Heaven KNEW IT!"   And, I can imagine everyone eagerly looking to see what John's expression would be---when He saw Him!

Concerning your 3., not sure where you are coming from here.  My first thought is that your take on this would be in conflict with the omnipresence of the Holy Spirit.

Those were not my questions.  God spoke to me in what sounded like an audible voice. I heard His voice and His words. 

“Son, I will ask you three questions about this passage of scripture. Until you can answer these questions correctly, you will never understand this vision.

 

1. “Why did John not immediately see Me at the right hand of the Father in chapter four? I ascended back into heaven years before John saw this vision. There are over a dozen verses showing that I went to be at the right hand of the Father. Why then did John not immediately see Me at the right hand of the Father?”

 

2. “John watched a search to find one worthy to open the seals—a search that ended in failure—and that is the reason John wept much: no man was found worthy. However, if you read ahead, you find that I was found worthy to break the seals. Why then was I not found in that first search?”

 3. “If you notice in chapter 4, the Holy Spirit was still in the throne room. I told the disciples that as soon as I ascended, I would send Him down. Why was the Holy Spirit still in the throne room in chapter 4?”

Those How would YOU answer these questions if God asked YOU? What did I do? I was "in the Spirit" and could do nothing. But after each question my spirit man inside said, "Lord, I cannot answer that question.

One comment about:

Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
and
Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

 In neither place did God or John include an "Only:" as in ONLY things that must be hereafter.

The truth is, John DID write of many things that were hereafter and many things STILL hereafter. But God also showed John things in the past.

YOu can either believe this or not. It is up to you.

I think God had a problem: He wanted to introduce John to the BOOK but chose to begin the vision while the book was still in the hand of the Father. In a vision of 95 AD, that would have been 60 some years into the PAST. It was history. God chose to show John a throne room with Jesus missing, and search for one worthy that ended in failure, and the Holy Spirit still in the throne room.

The Holy Spirit is probably beyond our understanding. It is written that He came upon Jesus "without measure" but at the same time was everywhere. I have no problem with God showing us in a vision the Holy Spirit as the 7 spirits of God in the throne room in chapter 4, and sent down in Chapter 5.

I do hope you attempt to answer His questions!