The Second Seal and the Horseman on the Red Horse

[not an echo]

On 4/12/2020 at 4:52 AM, Diaste said:

On 4/11/2020 at 11:59 AM, not an echo said:

As I'm considering your reply, I'm kinda looking for evidence of "everyone at war with everyone else" involving "every people group in a global theater, as in everywhere in the earth" any where in The Revelation.

Concerning "2000 years of war and disease and natural disasters" and "how would we ever distinguish any particular period as described in Matt 24:4-11 throughout two millennia,"  I'm thinking that there is not a need to try to distinguish anything as much as there is a need to recognize that everything Jesus spoke of has characterized all of the Christian era.  What would be the need to distinguish one period from another period?  The same thing has happened in all of the periods, or centuries, if you will, or even decades.  And, the things Jesus spoke of have not been fulfilled, as in past tense.  Rather, what He spoke of has never ceased to be fulfilled and is being fulfilled even now!  In my thinking, my faith is ever strengthened by my marvel of how spot on Jesus was concerning the things (don't forget Rev. 1:1-3) of which He warned 2000 years ago.

I think the evidence might exist in Revelation but that's not the idea. Jesus spoke of this 'wars and rumors of wars' in the context of the end of the age. No other context, not the last days, or the last times, or 'church age', the end of the age and the sign of His coming. So He answered, and a part of that answer is 'wars and rumors of wars' and 'nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom'. This part of the answer must be in the same context as the question posed; "What will be the sign of your coming and the end of the age?" Therefore 'wars and rumors of wars' and 'nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom' must be related to the end of the age and the sign of His coming and is one of the signs of His coming. It must therefore have some distinguishing characteristics to set it apart from all the other 'wars and rumors of wars' that have been taking place. 

Don't you see how that could be an issue?

Hi Diaste (and all), hope everyone has a meaningful Easter.

I do understand where you are coming from Diaste.  However, I don't see Jesus answering the disciple's questions quite as they were posed to Him.  This should not strike us odd.  His dialogue with the rich young ruler immediately comes to mind (Mk. 10:17-22).  Consider the disciples first question, "Tell us when shall these things be?" (Matt. 24:3).  They were referring to what Jesus said in verse 2.  But, I don't think either of us are seeing Jesus' reply as pointing to what happened in 70 AD.  But some do, and I understand that also.  Christians have wrestled with this and The Revelation and the other related prophecies since they were spoken.  And very good people have seen things very differently.

For me, a great key to understanding Jesus' Olivet Discourse is The Revelation, and vice versa.

You probably realize that Rev 1:1-3 is huge for me, as I believe it should be for everyone.  I hope we can agree that it is foundational.  The title to my latest thread reads, What "things" were "at hand" to "come to pass"? (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/251166-what-things-were-at-hand-to-come-to-pass-rev-11-3/).  Of course, I see the answer to this as being the going forth of the four horsemen, as early as late in the first century.  Diaste, if these were not the "things" that were "at hand" to begin to "come to pass",  what things were?  As I see it, if a view is not true to Rev 1:1-3, it will wash out.  I shake my head in disbelief over the many efforts that have been put forth to shore up views that are flagrantly not true to this foundation.

Further, many of Jesus' points of prophecy converge and/or find parallels in the area of the seals.  Moreover, there is great evidence of the rapture happening at the 6th Seal.  When I consider Matt 24:29-31, and the word "after" in verse 29, I can't help it that I see the opening of the 6th Seal and the rapture as coming on the tail end of the tribulation that the four horsemen will have been responsible for.

From a little different direction, as I see it, the first four seals reveal the satanic activity behind the tribulations Jesus warned of in the first part of His discourse, categories and degrees of tribulation that easily fit the whole era of the Church.  The 5th Seal reveals the cry of martyrs for justice, easily the martyrs of this Christian era.  Next, the 6th Seal reveals the phenomena concerning the sun, the moon, and the stars, which parallels what Jesus spoke of later, in Matt 24:29-31.  If the Church is raptured after the opening of the 6th Seal, this would be after the tribulation related to the prior seals and at the time of the sun, moon, and stars phenomena, a sequence that parallels Jesus' words in Matt 24:29---exactly.  This shows the sequence of what happens relating to both the seals and Matt 24:29-31 to be this:  Church era tribulation, THEN, celestial phenomena at the time of the rapture.  This would have the rapture happening before the beginning of the Day of the Lord, in perfect harmony with Paul's words (I Thess. 4:13:18 with 5:1-11, esp. 5:1-3).  Also, this would be before the beginning of Daniel's 70th Week (pre-trib), which, according to solid evidences in Scripture, will not begin until Rev 11:1, a few months after the Seven Sealed Book unfolds.

Closely related to this, it seems evident that there are only two options concerning the tribulation of which Jesus spoke in Matt 24:29.  He was either speaking of the entirety of the tribulation of the era of the Church, or, He was speaking of the entirety of the tribulation of Daniel's 70th Week.  However, the latter option will not fit if the celestial phenomena of which Jesus speaks is what John sees after the opening of the 6th Seal.  Why?  Because this would mean that the entirety of Daniel's 70th Week is preceding the 6th Seal, which in turn would mean that Christ's 6th Seal appearance has to be His Second Advent---and the 7th Seal will not have even been opened yet.

When I couple these comparisons of Jesus' discourse and The Revelation with what history bears testimony to (and other evidences), the weight is such that every other option pales in comparison.  If you can agree with me or not Diaste, I hope that you can at least see that my position is not without foundation.

Oh, and on the parable of the fig tree, I've shared some of my thoughts on that as well, but I'm not sure at the moment which post.  Holler back if you would like to talk about that some more.  Of course, there are a lot of other factors, and I have a lot of potential threads on my mind.  But, I don't have a lot of time.  Hopefully by and by, you and I (and all) can at least understand each other a little better, and perhaps, just perhaps, understand the truth of the matter a little better. 

On 4/12/2020 at 4:52 AM, Diaste said:

On 4/11/2020 at 11:59 AM, not an echo said:

Diaste, with Christian charity (and praying that I don't offend), I believe you are looking too closely at the finch's beak and missing the marvelously exquisite feathered flying bird.

 Yes indeed. One can post as many versions as one would like but it does not change the fact. "Kata" is defined as posted earlier. Just because a translator choose a word to compensate for lack of depth does not mean the translation carries with it the full concept or idea of the original term. "Divers" does not simply mean 'various' without the idea of complete or throughout and daily. You are free to believe as you see fit. There is an escalation coming in all these things; the very earth will be in pain.

I can see some of the truth in what you're saying.  Translators may not be afforded the time to look with a microscope at some of the things that catch our attention.  But, they did have to make a choice.  And most made the same choice.  In your opinion, which word in what you listed better captures the more correct meaning for "Kata",  and could you share how you feel that Matt 24:7 would then read?

"kata: down, against, according to"

"against, down from, throughout, by; acc: over against, among, daily, day-by-day, each day, according to, by way of."

Concerning your last sentence, Scripture certainly reveals that there is an escalation coming in all these things---a marked escalation.  As I see it, this will develop in connection with the sounding of the trumpets.  For example, during that time, deception will run rampant, even to the setting up of the kingdom of the Antichrist (Rev. 13:1-5ff).  Secondly, during that time we have an account of some kind of war, wherein one-third of the population will be killed (Rev 9:15-18).  There has never been such a war.  Thirdly, the catastrophes (and resultant poverty) of that time will be on a scale that seems unimaginable (Rev. 8:6-13).  And fourthly, there will be no limit to the persecution and martyrdom that will take place during that time, for all who will not succumb to the rule of the Antichrist will be subject to death (Rev. 13:11-15ff).  From another angle, for those who can accept that the four horsemen have been riding since before the turn of the first century, the tribulation they have already caused is just a precursor to what they and/or their cohorts will effect after the Church is gone.

Edited February 2, 2023 by not an echo

[Diaste]

8 hours ago, not an echo said:

I can see some of the truth in what you're saying.  Translators may not be afforded the time to look with a microscope at some of the things that catch our attention.  But, they did have to make a choice.  And most made the same choice.  In your opinion, which word better captures the more correct meaning for kata, and could you share how you feel that Matt 24:7 would then read?

"kata: down, against, according to"

"against, down from, throughout, by; acc: over against, among, daily, day-by-day, each day, according to, by way of."

This is very reason we must be Berean. We must look into all this. "Various" to us could mean the 'various makes of cars'. It's obvious 'kata' is not 'in a few places'. I assumes they choose 'various' as the best fit for 'throughout'  but it still misses the connotation of 'daily'. Matt 24:7 reads as it should. We need to simply understand the meaning of the term.

Various: 'different from one another; of different kinds or sorts'

Kata: 'against, down from, throughout, by; acc: over against, among, daily, day-by-day, each day, according to, by way of.'

Not at all the same.

8 hours ago, not an echo said:

You probably realize that Rev 1:1-3 is huge for me, as I believe it should be for everyone.  I hope we can agree that it is foundational.  The title to my latest thread reads, What "things" were "at hand" to "come to pass"?  Of course, I see the answer to this as being the going forth of the four horsemen, as early as late in the first century.  Diaste, if these were not the "things" that were "at hand" to begin to "come to pass," what things were?  As I see it, if a view is not true to Rev 1:1-3, it will wash out.  I shake my head in disbelief over the many efforts that have been put forth to shore up views that are flagrantly not true to this foundation.

If we interpret through our mortality, sure. But prophecy comes from the immortal and only wise God. It is His view of prophecy we must hold.

[not an echo]

On 4/12/2020 at 8:47 AM, Uriah said:

On 4/12/2020 at 12:29 AM, not an echo said:

  I certainly believe that His return will be in two phases, just not quite as put forth by adherents of the common pre-trib view.

Happy Resurrection Day!

Could you please explain this to me? To me it is mind boggling. The same as pre trib.

Hello Uriah,

I have had it on my heart to possibly start a thread concerning the two phases of Christ's return.  I just started it.  Hope it will be of a help to you (and all).  I actually titled it, The Two Phases of Christ's Return (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/251412-the-two-phases-of-christs-return/).

Edited February 2, 2023 by not an echo

[iamlamad]

On 4/3/2020 at 10:45 PM, not an echo said:

Yesterday I started a thread entitled, "The First Seal and the Horseman on the White Horse."  For the one who may have not seen that thread, according to the opening verses of The Revelation, it is quite evident that John was shown things that were "at hand" to begin to take place (Rev. 1:1-3).  The Revelation is his record of what he saw, and he was told to send this, with specific messages, to the seven churches that were in Asia (Rev. 1:10-11), which he did (Rev. 2-3).  Just before he was shown what would be taking place, he was called up "in the spirit" to Heaven and allowed to behold God on His throne (Rev. 4).  John then tells of a book he saw in God's right hand, which was sealed with seven seals, and of an event that takes place in Heaven in which the Lamb (Jesus Christ) alone is found worthy to have charge of it (Rev. 5).  The beginning of what was about to start taking place related to the opening of the seals of that Seven Sealed Book, a book that could rightly be entitled THE DAY OF THE LORD.  The seals of the book pertain to the post-apostolic era of the Church and what is slated to take place before the Day of the Lord will begin (Rev. 6-7).  In other words, the seals of the book represent what will be taking place leading up to what is contained within the book.

In harmony with Scripture, and testified to by history, Christ opened the first four seals late in the first century, granting to Satan the certain liberties that he (Satan) has been given to continue the plying of his craft into and during the era of Christianity (also known as the Church Age).  As it has always been, Satan would have absolutely no liberties otherwise.  As revealed in The Revelation, these liberties are exercised by his henchmen, the four horsemen of the first four seals.  Moreover, these horsemen have been riding down through the corridors of the Christian era even unto our day, doing just what they have been insatiably bent on doing.  To the discerning eye, a survey of history since the first century will reveal that they have left quite a trail.  Their activity is responsible for the things Jesus warned of in the opening of His Olivet Discourse, things that have characterized every century of the Christian era.  With this thread, I would like to look a little closer at the opening of the 2nd Seal and its horseman.  Consider, from Revelation 6:

 3   And when He had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.

  4   And there went out another horse that was red:  and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another:  and there was given unto him a great sword.

There is certainly no difficulty seeing the correlation between what John here saw and what Jesus spoke next in His Olivet Discourse.  From Matthew's account, in chapter 24, consider:

  6   And ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars:  see that ye be not troubled:  for all these things must come to pass but the end is not yet.

  7   For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:

Perhaps no other words that Jesus spoke concerning what the future held resonate with our generation more than these, that there would be "wars and rumours of wars."  There is really no need to take the time to mention the wars that have occurred in the last hundred years, which the United States alone has been involved in, much less the rest of the world.  And, what about all the wars that have occurred since John received The Revelation!

Think about this:  How long has Christ's Bride worked towards peaceful solutions to humanity's differences so that war might be averted, only to have so many of Her efforts rode roughshod over by something?  In harmony with Scripture, we can rightly conclude that the rider on the red horse of the 2nd Seal has been the culprit here.  I can almost envision this horseman busying himself to keep everything among peoples and nations in a stir, always endeavoring to keep the fires of war kindled.  Isn't it amazing how much we would like to have peace in the world and yet how difficult it is to attain?  Why is this so?  It is so because of this rider's power "to take peace from the earth" and his obsession with the exercising of this power.  If the activity of the rider on this red horse has been behind all the wars that have occurred since the first century, the sword he has wielded has indeed been great (vs. 4).

It might be asked, "If Satan has been granted such liberty, what is the Church to do?"  My answer is this:  Just because Satan has been granted certain powers does not mean that God has left us powerless!  Paul instructed the Church to be "strong in the Lord, and in the power of HIS might" (Eph. 6:10).  What a message there is for us here!  It is not just the horseman of the 2nd Seal who has been given a great sword.  The Bride has in Her arsenal "the Sword of the Spirit, which is the Word of God" (Eph. 6:17)!  So, though we are fighting "against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places" (Eph. 6:12), we must not retreat.  We must continue in our own campaign, in keeping with the song we sing, "Onward Christian Soldiers."  And fellow soldiers, when it seems that you are in a place where you cannot advance, stand, "having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;  And your feet shod with the preparation of the Gospel of Peace" (Eph. 6:14-15). This is the only way to countervail for the peace that the horseman of the 2nd Seal is bent on taking away.

 

Following are threads that I have concerning the other seals:

The First Seal and the Horseman on the White Horse (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/250674-the-first-seal-and-the-horseman-on-the-white-horse/).

The Third Seal and the Horseman on the Black Horse (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/250748-the-third-seal-and-the-horseman-on-the-black-horse/).

The Fourth Seal and the Horseman on the Pale Horse (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/250832-the-fourth-seal-and-the-horseman-on-the-pale-horse/).

The Fifth Seal and the Cry of the Martyrs (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/250955-the-fifth-seal-and-the-cry-of-the-martyrs/).

Also, these threads concern A Totally Different Pre-Daniel's 70th Week Rapture Interpretation that I have, where information concerning the other seals can be found.  Here is that link: (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/253935-a-totally-different-pre-daniels-70th-week-rapture-interpretation/).

 

I don't know where you get "late..." Jesus got the book into his hands as soon as He sent Mary away and ascended. And He started opening seals right then - for the first seal made it legal for HIm to send out the church with the gospel.

No, sorry, the book is not the Day, for the Day of the Lord will begin with the 6th seal. It is far more likely that inside the book will be found the entire 70th-week of Daniel.

The truth is, seals 2, 3, and 4 are together. I mean, the riders ride together. At the fourth seal we read that Power was given unto "them" to kill with the sword (the red horse and rider) with famine (the black horse and rider) and with Death (the pale horse and rider) - but God limited their theater of operation to only 1/4 of the earth - so together they are sent out TO STOP THE ADVANCE OF THE GOSPEL. If the Devil could hold the gospel in that quarter of the earth they were limited to, then the end could never come. However, the gates of hell could never stop the gospel, and today it is around the world. The devil lost that battle.

[not an echo]

On 3/20/2022 at 5:17 PM, iamlamad said:

On 4/3/2020 at 10:45 PM, not an echo said:

Yesterday I started a thread entitled, "The First Seal and the Horseman on the White Horse."  For the one who may have not seen that thread, according to the opening verses of The Revelation, it is quite evident that John was shown things that were "at hand" to begin to take place (Rev. 1:1-3).  The Revelation is his record of what he saw, and he was told to send this, with specific messages, to the seven churches that were in Asia (Rev. 1:10-11), which he did (Rev. 2-3).  Just before he was shown what would be taking place, he was called up "in the spirit" to Heaven and allowed to behold God on His throne (Rev. 4).  John then tells of a book he saw in God's right hand, which was sealed with seven seals, and of an event that takes place in Heaven in which the Lamb (Jesus Christ) alone is found worthy to have charge of it (Rev. 5).  The beginning of what was about to start taking place related to the opening of the seals of that Seven Sealed Book, a book that could rightly be entitled THE DAY OF THE LORD.  The seals of the book pertain to the post-apostolic era of the Church and what is slated to take place before the Day of the Lord will begin (Rev. 6-7).  In other words, the seals of the book represent what will be taking place leading up to what is contained within the book.

In harmony with Scripture, and testified to by history, Christ opened the first four seals late in the first century, granting to Satan the certain liberties that he (Satan) has been given to continue the plying of his craft into and during the era of Christianity (also known as the Church Age).  As it has always been, Satan would have absolutely no liberties otherwise.  As revealed in The Revelation, these liberties are exercised by his henchmen, the four horsemen of the first four seals.  Moreover, these horsemen have been riding down through the corridors of the Christian era even unto our day, doing just what they have been insatiably bent on doing.  To the discerning eye, a survey of history since the first century will reveal that they have left quite a trail.  Their activity is responsible for the things Jesus warned of in the opening of His Olivet Discourse, things that have characterized every century of the Christian era.  With this thread, I would like to look a little closer at the opening of the 2nd Seal and its horseman.  Consider, from Revelation 6:

https://worthychristianforumscore-h45go6maxh5rpepgu.netdna-ssl.com/uploads/monthly_2020_04/1379344936_picture7blackonwhite.png.962873ea4164fa9f84e77bc03a9af1be.png 3   And when He had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.

  4   And there went out another horse that was red:  and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another:  and there was given unto him a great sword.

There is certainly no difficulty seeing the correlation between what John here saw and what Jesus spoke next in His Olivet Discourse.  From Matthew's account, in chapter 24, consider:

  6   And ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars:  see that ye be not troubled:  for all these things must come to pass but the end is not yet.

  7   For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:

Perhaps no other words that Jesus spoke concerning what the future held resonate with our generation more than these, that there would be "wars and rumours of wars."  There is really no need to take the time to mention the wars that have occurred in the last hundred years, which the United States alone has been involved in, much less the rest of the world.  And, what about all the wars that have occurred since John received The Revelation!

Think about this:  How long has Christ's Bride worked towards peaceful solutions to humanity's differences so that war might be averted, only to have so many of Her efforts rode roughshod over by something?  In harmony with Scripture, we can rightly conclude that the rider on the red horse of the 2nd Seal has been the culprit here.  I can almost envision this horseman busying himself to keep everything among peoples and nations in a stir, always endeavoring to keep the fires of war kindled.  Isn't it amazing how much we would like to have peace in the world and yet how difficult it is to attain?  Why is this so?  It is so because of this rider's power "to take peace from the earth" and his obsession with the exercising of this power.  If the activity of the rider on this red horse has been behind all the wars that have occurred since the first century, the sword he has wielded has indeed been great (vs. 4).

It might be asked, "If Satan has been granted such liberty, what is the Church to do?"  My answer is this:  Just because Satan has been granted certain powers does not mean that God has left us powerless!  Paul instructed the Church to be "strong in the Lord, and in the power of HIS might" (Eph. 6:10).  What a message there is for us here!  It is not just the horseman of the 2nd Seal who has been given a great sword.  The Bride has in Her arsenal "the Sword of the Spirit, which is the Word of God" (Eph. 6:17)!  So, though we are fighting "against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places" (Eph. 6:12), we must not retreat.  We must continue in our own campaign, in keeping with the song we sing, "Onward Christian Soldiers."  And fellow soldiers, when it seems that you are in a place where you cannot advance, stand, "having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;  And your feet shod with the preparation of the Gospel of Peace" (Eph. 6:14-15). This is the only way to countervail for the peace that the horseman of the 2nd Seal is bent on taking away.

 

Following are threads that I have concerning the other seals:

The First Seal and the Horseman on the White Horse (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/250674-the-first-seal-and-the-horseman-on-the-white-horse/).

The Third Seal and the Horseman on the Black Horse (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/250748-the-third-seal-and-the-horseman-on-the-black-horse/).

The Fourth Seal and the Horseman on the Pale Horse (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/250832-the-fourth-seal-and-the-horseman-on-the-pale-horse/).

The Fifth Seal and the Cry of the Martyrs (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/250955-the-fifth-seal-and-the-cry-of-the-martyrs/).

Also, these threads concern A Totally Different Pre-Daniel's 70th Week Rapture Interpretation that I have, where information concerning the other seals can be found.  Here is that link: (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/253935-a-totally-different-pre-daniels-70th-week-rapture-interpretation/).

 

I don't know where you get "late..." Jesus got the book into his hands as soon as He sent Mary away and ascended. And He started opening seals right then - for the first seal made it legal for HIm to send out the church with the gospel.

No, sorry, the book is not the Day, for the Day of the Lord will begin with the 6th seal. It is far more likely that inside the book will be found the entire 70th-week of Daniel.

The truth is, seals 2, 3, and 4 are together. I mean, the riders ride together. At the fourth seal we read that Power was given unto "them" to kill with the sword (the red horse and rider) with famine (the black horse and rider) and with Death (the pale horse and rider) - but God limited their theater of operation to only 1/4 of the earth - so together they are sent out TO STOP THE ADVANCE OF THE GOSPEL. If the Devil could hold the gospel in that quarter of the earth they were limited to, then the end could never come. However, the gates of hell could never stop the gospel, and today it is around the world. The devil lost that battle.

Hello iamlamad,

Concerning your first paragraph, my use of the word "late" is in the first sentence of my second paragraph.  One reason I believe it was "late" in the first century is because John is told that he was going to be shown "things which must be hereafter" (Rev. 4:1).  Seems to me that what John records is in real time and the "hereafter" would have been from his perspective of time.  Very interesting is that leading up to what he is shown, He sees God on His throne, the elders and the beasts, and lots of other things that must have been quite a sight!  Moreover, he was able to take part in the ceremony in which Christ, the Lamb, was given charge of the Seven Sealed Book that God was holding in His right hand---charge of what was to be "hereafter."

Concerning your second paragraph, if the 7th Seal is opened a few minutes or hours after the 6th Seal is opened---meaning the same day---it becomes as broad as it is long.  In other words, the time of the last days' "Day of the LORD" judgment will begin the day that the 6th and 7th seals are opened.  And, as far as you have worded it here, I wholeheartedly agree with you "that inside the book will be found the entire 70th-week of Daniel."  But, it is also about a little more than that.

Concerning your third paragraph, if you believe that "seals 2, 3, and 4 are together",  why not seal 1?  You believe "the riders ride together."  What about the first rider?

Edited February 2, 2023 by not an echo

[iamlamad]

28 minutes ago, not an echo said:

Hello iamlamad,

Concerning your first paragraph, my use of the word "late" is in the first sentence of my second paragraph.  One reason I believe it was "late" in the first century is because John is told that he was going to be shown "things which must be hereafter" (Rev. 4:1).  Seems to me that what John records is in real time and the "hereafter" would have been from his perspective of time.  Very interesting is that leading up to what he is shown, He sees God on His throne, the elders and the beasts, and lots of other things that must have been quite a sight!  Moreover, he was able to take part in the ceremony in which Christ, the Lamb, was given charge of the Seven Sealed Book that God was holding in His right hand---charge of what was to be "hereafter."

Concerning your second paragraph, if the 7th Seal is opened a few minutes or hours after the 6th Seal is opened---meaning the same day---it becomes as broad as it is long.  In other words, the time of the last days' "Day of the LORD" judgment will begin the day that the 6th and 7th seals are opened.  And, as far as you have worded it here, I wholeheartedly agree with you "that inside the book will be found the entire 70th-week of Daniel."  But, it is also about a little more than that.

Concerning your third paragraph, if you believe that "seals 2, 3, and 4 are together", why not seal 1?  You believe "the riders ride together."  What about the first rider?

A very simple answer is, the White horse rider rides along and is the church sent out with the Gospel. Here is why I believe as I do.

I began to meditate on chapters 4 & 5. Finally I got stuck in John weeping much, and I could not get away from that. I began to bug God about that, asking Him why we needed to know why John wept, and why it was “much.” Finally God spoke and said, “it shows timing.” Again I spent days reading and meditating and praying in tongues, and I could not find timing anywhere, so continued to bug Him about it. Finally, perhaps two more weeks, and He said, “it also shows the movement of time.” Again I studied, read, meditated, prayed in the spirit, and again I could not find any “movement” of time! (At this point in time, today, I cannot remember if these were audible words, or if this was the still small voice; all I can say is I very clearly heard God speak these words to me.)

 I kept bugging God about this, telling Him I could not find timing or the movement of time anywhere. Finally, God had great mercy on my slowness, and spoke to me:

 “Son, I will ask you three questions about this passage of scripture. Until you can answer these questions correctly, you will never understand this vision.

 1. “Why did John not immediately see Me at the right hand of the Father in chapter four? I ascended back into heaven years before John saw this vision. There are over a dozen verses showing that I went to be at the right hand of the Father. Why then did John not immediately see Me at the right hand of the Father?”

As before, when He spoke, I was “in the spirit” and could not answer by thinking of an answer and speaking. However, my spirit man answered, “I cannot answer that question.”

 Again He spoke.

2. “John watched a search to find one worthy to open the seals—a search that ended in failure—and that is the reason John wept much: no man was found worthy. However, if you read ahead, you find that I was found worthy to break the seals. Why then was I not found in that first search?”

  Again my spirit man answered, “Lord, I cannot answer that.” Then He asked me the third question:

3. “If you notice in chapter 4, the Holy Spirit was still in the throne room. I told the disciples that as soon as I ascended, I would send Him down. Why was the Holy Spirit still in the throne room in chapter 4?”

 Again my spirit man said that he could not answer this question. The Lord did not say more at that time. I studied diligently on that vision of the throne room, trying to answer His questions. I could not see any timing. I could not see the movement of time. I could not figure out why Jesus was not at the right hand of the Father. I could not figure out why “no man was found.” I could not figure out why the Holy Spirit was still there. I spent weeks looking and asking God for help.

Finally after three or four more weeks of study, I heard His voice again. He said, “go and study chapter 12.”

When I turned to chapter 12, He spoke and gave me a synopsis of that chapter.

 “This chapter was Me introducing John to the dragon, and in particular, what the dragon would be doing during the last half of the week; but I also chose to show John what the dragon did when I was born. The first five verses were a ‘history lesson’ for John. Count how many times the dragon is mentioned, including pronouns.”

 I counted 32 times. I could see that chapter 12 was certainly about the dragon! Then He said, “you can go back and study chapters 4 & 5 again.” I would guess this interlude on chapter 12 was less than one hour. At first I could not understand why He sent me there. But now I know: it was to get “history lesson” into my brain! You see, the first five verses of chapter 12 was Jesus showing John what the dragon did to attempt to destroy Him when He was born. These events were before John was born, so was certainly a “history lesson” for him!

 I turned back to begin meditating again on chapters 4 & 5, but suddenly it was different than before! It one instant of time, I could answer all three of His questions! To this day I am not sure that was a “download” or if just having “history lesson” in my mind made the difference. I immediately knew that this was a vision of the past, or another “history lesson” for John: he was seeing into the throne room of the past, before Jesus rose from the dead. Jesus was not seen at the right hand of the Father, because He was still on earth. “no man was found” worthy to break the seals, because Jesus had not yet risen from the dead to become the redeemer worthy to break the seals. And the Holy Spirit was still in the throne room, because Jesus had not yet ascended to send Him down.

 Then, in chapter 5, we see the movement of time; another search was started as soon as the first one ended in failure. But in this second search, someone was found! Time was moving, and at this time, Jesus had risen from the dead, and was immediately found worthy. So John got to see, in this vision, the very moment Jesus ascended into the throne room, after telling Mary not to hold onto Him for He had not yet ascended. Then we see, the moment Jesus arrived in the throne room, the Holy Spirit was sent down. This then, Jesus ascension, sets the CONTEXT and timing of the first seal. One cannot find 2000 years between these verses! Now for what I pasted in.

 For years pretribbers have tried to force a rapture upon Rev. 4:1. It is my guess, if we took 100 5th graders that had never been to a church and had them read this verse and tell us what they thought it means, NONE would come up with a rapture. They would all say that this was John being caught up to heaven, for the purpose of being taught things to come. It is truly sloppy exegesis to make this the rapture, and has opened to door wide for massive criticism, and rightly so. This was NEVER intended by the Author, to be the rapture.

 Next, it has long been the thought of pretrib that the 70th week starts with the first seal. Again, it is very sloppy exegesis, and again, NOT the intent of the Author, the Holy Spirit. The truth is, the vision of the throne room is the CONTEXT for the seals, and must be understood before the timing of the seals will ever be known. But many ignore this vision and claim the first seal to be the antichrist, when there is NOT ONE WORD about him to portray evil. John used the color white 17 times in Revelation, and the other 16 all to portray righteousness - yet some can believe that in this ONE instance, white must mean something else.

 If we study the vision of the throne room, chapters 4 through 5, and not just skim over it, some things become clear. First, WHY was Jesus not immediately seen at the right hand of the Father? We have a dozen verses telling us that is where He should be. Yet, He was not there. Next, John watched a search for one worthy to break the seals, and saw that search END IN FAILURE - which is why John wept much. This vision was seen around 95 AD. But WHAT was the time portrayed in the vision? Was it past, present, or future? (A vision can be any of these.)

 We must determine, WHY this first search ended in failure? Next, we see in Chapter 4 that the Holy Spirit is there in the throne room, when Jesus said that as soon as He ascended He would send Him down. So we have another conundrum. I must emphasize again, unless we understand these things, we can NEVER understand the timing of the seals, for this is the context of the first seal. If we get into Chapter 5, we can begin to find the answers. Another search was begun as soon as the one John watched ended with failure. But in this NEXT search, suddenly someone was found! So what changed? TIME was the only thing that changed. John wept MUCH. This does not mean a little. TIME passed. Then, John saw a NEW entity in the throne room - one who was NOT there a moment before! And then an interesting thing: the Holy Spirit is SUDDENLY sent down to earth!

 The ONLY conclusion one can come to with these clues is the passing of time made a difference! First Jesus was NOT in the throne room, and then He suddenly appeared. First NO MAN was found, and then Jesus was found. First the Holy Spirit was IN the room, and then He was sent down. What is the answer? When John first looked into the throne room, it was the throne room of the PAST, looking back in time to a time just before Jesus rose from the dead. He was NOT at the right hand of the Father, because He left that exalted state to become a man - and He had not yet returned to the Father. From eternities past to eternities future, there has been only one tiny portion of time where the second member of the Godhood was NOT at the right hand of the Father – and that was the short 32 years He was on the earth.

 NO MAN WAS FOUND because at this moment in time, Jesus had NOT YET risen from the dead, to be found as the REDEEMER of man. The Holy Spirit was there simply because Jesus had NOT YET ascended to send Him down. But John wept...not a little but MUCH...and during that time of John weeping, Jesus ROSE FROM THE DEAD! He was immediately found worthy to break the seals. Then, after Jesus told Mary not to hold onto Him, He ascended to the Father, and the Holy Spirit was INSTANTLY send down to the church.

 So after all that, WHAT TIME WAS IT? It was around 32 AD when Jesus ascended to the throne. What was the first thing Jesus did? He took the scroll from the Father's hand and began IMMEDIATELY to break seals. Therefore, there can only be one conclusion: the first seals were broken about 32 AD. The first seal was a WHITE horse and rider. White was to represent righteousness. What was the ONE THING on earth in 32 AD that was righteous? Of course, the infant church was righteous. This first seal was and is to represent the church sent out to make disciples of all nations. He rides alone. He conquers and overcomes. Today there is no country anywhere where the Gospel has not been at some time or other. And today, thanks to the internet, the gospel is EVERYWHERE the internet is.

 Next we have the Red horse and rider, the black horse and rider and the pale horse and rider. These three ride together. (“And power was given unto THEM...” - these three: note “to kill with the sword” [red horse]; to kill “with hunger” [black horse]; and to kill “with death” [pale horse.]) They are to represent the feeble attempts of the devil to STOP the advance of the church. God LIMITED their theater of operation to 1/4 of the earth. I am convinced, Satan was SURE he could keep the church bottled up in that 1/4 and prove God to be a liar. (This one fourth would certainly be centered over Jerusalem, so would take in all of Europe and Africa.) Well, it is obvious he failed! The Gospel of our Lord is everywhere available – in every nation under the sun, yet there are many that still need to be reached.

 Finally we come to the 5th seal, the ONLY seal with a hint of a long wait. Because many have misunderstood the timing, they have supposed these to be 70th week martyrs. No, they are CHURCH age martyrs, and Stephen was one of the first. If we understand what God said to them, we have a HINT to the timing of the rapture. Stop for a moment and think: if these were 70th week martyrs, they would have NO REASON to ask how long, for they would KNOW they had only 7 years or less to wait. But consider Stephen: he did not know how long the church age would be...and he has waited nearly 2000 years. They were told they must wait until the very last martyr was killed in the same manner they were killed - as CHURCH AGE martyrs. (John could not have been speaking of how each one died, for they were all different: the one COMMON thing - they were all killed as church age martyrs.) So what would make the very last church age martyr? Of course the END of the church age would cause the end of church age martyrs; anyone martyred after this would be classified as a 70^th week martyr. What will END the church age? Of course, the pretrib rapture of the church will end the church age!

 So what is the very next event in John's book? Of course the 6th seal comes after the 5^th seal. We are right now between the 5^th and 6^th seal, waiting on the rapture that will end the church age. What is the final sentence at the 6th seal? "The day of His wrath has come." (Remember, we have no appointment with His wrath. He comes to delivers us FROM His wrath.) So the 6th seal is for the signs of the Day of the Lord. What did Paul write, just three verses after his classic rapture verse? He wrote about the Day of the Lord coming at a time of peace and safety, but coming as a thief in the night. If we understand chapter 5 of 1 Thes., we see that Paul is showing us the rapture is the TRIGGER for the Day of the Lord. So this fits "hand in glove" with John in Rev. chapter 6.

 The rapture is the SUDDENLY in 1 Thes. At this suddenly, those in Christ are caught up, and those left behind get "sudden destruction." What is this sudden destruction? It is the worldwide earthquake caused by the resurrection of the dead in Christ. Matt. 27 says, "the earth did quake...and the graves were opened." We see also that there was a great earthquake when the two witnesses were raised. Make no mistake, when the dead in Christ are resurrected, there WILL BE a worldwide earthquake. We see that earthquake as the FIRST EVENT of the 6th seal (remember, it came right after the 5th seal.)

 It is NOT a coincidence that John then saw the raptured church IN HEAVEN in Rev. Chapter 7. Again, make no mistake, this IS the raptured church. Many are distracted by the two words, "great tribulation" and suppose these were killed by the Beast. But John has not yet even started the 70th week, must less got to the midpoint or the days of Great tribulation caused by the Beast and false prophet. So what is John's meaning here? It is simple, by the time of the rapture, there will be great tribulation around the world, meaning, people will be dying for their testimony. It is that way in half the world today, and it WILL move West. So the rapture will IMMEDIATELY bring on the signs of the start of the Day of the Lord: the sun turning dark, and the moon into blood. In Revelation, the rapture of the church will come JUST BEFORE the earthquake at the 6th seal.

[not an echo]

On 3/21/2022 at 12:30 PM, iamlamad said:

On 3/21/2022 at 11:59 AM, not an echo said:

Hello iamlamad,

Concerning your first paragraph, my use of the word "late" is in the first sentence of my second paragraph.  One reason I believe it was "late" in the first century is because John is told that he was going to be shown "things which must be hereafter" (Rev. 4:1).  Seems to me that what John records is in real time and the "hereafter" would have been from his perspective of time.  Very interesting is that leading up to what he is shown, He sees God on His throne, the elders and the beasts, and lots of other things that must have been quite a sight!  Moreover, he was able to take part in the ceremony in which Christ, the Lamb, was given charge of the Seven Sealed Book that God was holding in His right hand---charge of what was to be "hereafter."

Concerning your second paragraph, if the 7th Seal is opened a few minutes or hours after the 6th Seal is opened---meaning the same day---it becomes as broad as it is long.  In other words, the time of the last days' "Day of the LORD" judgment will begin the day that the 6th and 7th seals are opened.  And, as far as you have worded it here, I wholeheartedly agree with you "that inside the book will be found the entire 70th-week of Daniel."  But, it is also about a little more than that.

Concerning your third paragraph, if you believe that "seals 2, 3, and 4 are together", why not seal 1?  You believe "the riders ride together."  What about the first rider?

A very simple answer is, the White horse rider rides along and is the church sent out with the Gospel. Here is why I believe as I do.

I began to meditate on chapters 4 & 5. Finally I got stuck in John weeping much, and I could not get away from that. I began to bug God about that, asking Him why we needed to know why John wept, and why it was “much.” Finally God spoke and said, “it shows timing.” Again I spent days reading and meditating and praying in tongues, and I could not find timing anywhere, so continued to bug Him about it. Finally, perhaps two more weeks, and He said, “it also shows the movement of time.” Again I studied, read, meditated, prayed in the spirit, and again I could not find any “movement” of time! (At this point in time, today, I cannot remember if these were audible words, or if this was the still small voice; all I can say is I very clearly heard God speak these words to me.)

 I kept bugging God about this, telling Him I could not find timing or the movement of time anywhere. Finally, God had great mercy on my slowness, and spoke to me:

 “Son, I will ask you three questions about this passage of scripture. Until you can answer these questions correctly, you will never understand this vision.

 1. “Why did John not immediately see Me at the right hand of the Father in chapter four? I ascended back into heaven years before John saw this vision. There are over a dozen verses showing that I went to be at the right hand of the Father. Why then did John not immediately see Me at the right hand of the Father?”

As before, when He spoke, I was “in the spirit” and could not answer by thinking of an answer and speaking. However, my spirit man answered, “I cannot answer that question.”

 Again He spoke.

2. “John watched a search to find one worthy to open the seals—a search that ended in failure—and that is the reason John wept much: no man was found worthy. However, if you read ahead, you find that I was found worthy to break the seals. Why then was I not found in that first search?”

  Again my spirit man answered, “Lord, I cannot answer that.” Then He asked me the third question:

3. “If you notice in chapter 4, the Holy Spirit was still in the throne room. I told the disciples that as soon as I ascended, I would send Him down. Why was the Holy Spirit still in the throne room in chapter 4?”

 Again my spirit man said that he could not answer this question. The Lord did not say more at that time. I studied diligently on that vision of the throne room, trying to answer His questions. I could not see any timing. I could not see the movement of time. I could not figure out why Jesus was not at the right hand of the Father. I could not figure out why “no man was found.” I could not figure out why the Holy Spirit was still there. I spent weeks looking and asking God for help.

Finally after three or four more weeks of study, I heard His voice again. He said, “go and study chapter 12.”

When I turned to chapter 12, He spoke and gave me a synopsis of that chapter.

 “This chapter was Me introducing John to the dragon, and in particular, what the dragon would be doing during the last half of the week; but I also chose to show John what the dragon did when I was born. The first five verses were a ‘history lesson’ for John. Count how many times the dragon is mentioned, including pronouns.”

 I counted 32 times. I could see that chapter 12 was certainly about the dragon! Then He said, “you can go back and study chapters 4 & 5 again.” I would guess this interlude on chapter 12 was less than one hour. At first I could not understand why He sent me there. But now I know: it was to get “history lesson” into my brain! You see, the first five verses of chapter 12 was Jesus showing John what the dragon did to attempt to destroy Him when He was born. These events were before John was born, so was certainly a “history lesson” for him!

 I turned back to begin meditating again on chapters 4 & 5, but suddenly it was different than before! It one instant of time, I could answer all three of His questions! To this day I am not sure that was a “download” or if just having “history lesson” in my mind made the difference. I immediately knew that this was a vision of the past, or another “history lesson” for John: he was seeing into the throne room of the past, before Jesus rose from the dead. Jesus was not seen at the right hand of the Father, because He was still on earth. “no man was found” worthy to break the seals, because Jesus had not yet risen from the dead to become the redeemer worthy to break the seals. And the Holy Spirit was still in the throne room, because Jesus had not yet ascended to send Him down.

 Then, in chapter 5, we see the movement of time; another search was started as soon as the first one ended in failure. But in this second search, someone was found! Time was moving, and at this time, Jesus had risen from the dead, and was immediately found worthy. So John got to see, in this vision, the very moment Jesus ascended into the throne room, after telling Mary not to hold onto Him for He had not yet ascended. Then we see, the moment Jesus arrived in the throne room, the Holy Spirit was sent down. This then, Jesus ascension, sets the CONTEXT and timing of the first seal. One cannot find 2000 years between these verses! Now for what I pasted in.

 For years pretribbers have tried to force a rapture upon Rev. 4:1. It is my guess, if we took 100 5th graders that had never been to a church and had them read this verse and tell us what they thought it means, NONE would come up with a rapture. They would all say that this was John being caught up to heaven, for the purpose of being taught things to come. It is truly sloppy exegesis to make this the rapture, and has opened to door wide for massive criticism, and rightly so. This was NEVER intended by the Author, to be the rapture.

 Next, it has long been the thought of pretrib that the 70th week starts with the first seal. Again, it is very sloppy exegesis, and again, NOT the intent of the Author, the Holy Spirit. The truth is, the vision of the throne room is the CONTEXT for the seals, and must be understood before the timing of the seals will ever be known. But many ignore this vision and claim the first seal to be the antichrist, when there is NOT ONE WORD about him to portray evil. John used the color white 17 times in Revelation, and the other 16 all to portray righteousness - yet some can believe that in this ONE instance, white must mean something else.

 If we study the vision of the throne room, chapters 4 through 5, and not just skim over it, some things become clear. First, WHY was Jesus not immediately seen at the right hand of the Father? We have a dozen verses telling us that is where He should be. Yet, He was not there. Next, John watched a search for one worthy to break the seals, and saw that search END IN FAILURE - which is why John wept much. This vision was seen around 95 AD. But WHAT was the time portrayed in the vision? Was it past, present, or future? (A vision can be any of these.)

 We must determine, WHY this first search ended in failure? Next, we see in Chapter 4 that the Holy Spirit is there in the throne room, when Jesus said that as soon as He ascended He would send Him down. So we have another conundrum. I must emphasize again, unless we understand these things, we can NEVER understand the timing of the seals, for this is the context of the first seal. If we get into Chapter 5, we can begin to find the answers. Another search was begun as soon as the one John watched ended with failure. But in this NEXT search, suddenly someone was found! So what changed? TIME was the only thing that changed. John wept MUCH. This does not mean a little. TIME passed. Then, John saw a NEW entity in the throne room - one who was NOT there a moment before! And then an interesting thing: the Holy Spirit is SUDDENLY sent down to earth!

 The ONLY conclusion one can come to with these clues is the passing of time made a difference! First Jesus was NOT in the throne room, and then He suddenly appeared. First NO MAN was found, and then Jesus was found. First the Holy Spirit was IN the room, and then He was sent down. What is the answer? When John first looked into the throne room, it was the throne room of the PAST, looking back in time to a time just before Jesus rose from the dead. He was NOT at the right hand of the Father, because He left that exalted state to become a man - and He had not yet returned to the Father. From eternities past to eternities future, there has been only one tiny portion of time where the second member of the Godhood was NOT at the right hand of the Father – and that was the short 32 years He was on the earth.

 NO MAN WAS FOUND because at this moment in time, Jesus had NOT YET risen from the dead, to be found as the REDEEMER of man. The Holy Spirit was there simply because Jesus had NOT YET ascended to send Him down. But John wept...not a little but MUCH...and during that time of John weeping, Jesus ROSE FROM THE DEAD! He was immediately found worthy to break the seals. Then, after Jesus told Mary not to hold onto Him, He ascended to the Father, and the Holy Spirit was INSTANTLY send down to the church.

 So after all that, WHAT TIME WAS IT? It was around 32 AD when Jesus ascended to the throne. What was the first thing Jesus did? He took the scroll from the Father's hand and began IMMEDIATELY to break seals. Therefore, there can only be one conclusion: the first seals were broken about 32 AD. The first seal was a WHITE horse and rider. White was to represent righteousness. What was the ONE THING on earth in 32 AD that was righteous? Of course, the infant church was righteous. This first seal was and is to represent the church sent out to make disciples of all nations. He rides alone. He conquers and overcomes. Today there is no country anywhere where the Gospel has not been at some time or other. And today, thanks to the internet, the gospel is EVERYWHERE the internet is.

 Next we have the Red horse and rider, the black horse and rider and the pale horse and rider. These three ride together. (“And power was given unto THEM...” - these three: note “to kill with the sword” [red horse]; to kill “with hunger” [black horse]; and to kill “with death” [pale horse.]) They are to represent the feeble attempts of the devil to STOP the advance of the church. God LIMITED their theater of operation to 1/4 of the earth. I am convinced, Satan was SURE he could keep the church bottled up in that 1/4 and prove God to be a liar. (This one fourth would certainly be centered over Jerusalem, so would take in all of Europe and Africa.) Well, it is obvious he failed! The Gospel of our Lord is everywhere available – in every nation under the sun, yet there are many that still need to be reached.

 Finally we come to the 5th seal, the ONLY seal with a hint of a long wait. Because many have misunderstood the timing, they have supposed these to be 70th week martyrs. No, they are CHURCH age martyrs, and Stephen was one of the first. If we understand what God said to them, we have a HINT to the timing of the rapture. Stop for a moment and think: if these were 70th week martyrs, they would have NO REASON to ask how long, for they would KNOW they had only 7 years or less to wait. But consider Stephen: he did not know how long the church age would be...and he has waited nearly 2000 years. They were told they must wait until the very last martyr was killed in the same manner they were killed - as CHURCH AGE martyrs. (John could not have been speaking of how each one died, for they were all different: the one COMMON thing - they were all killed as church age martyrs.) So what would make the very last church age martyr? Of course the END of the church age would cause the end of church age martyrs; anyone martyred after this would be classified as a 70^th week martyr. What will END the church age? Of course, the pretrib rapture of the church will end the church age!

 So what is the very next event in John's book? Of course the 6th seal comes after the 5^th seal. We are right now between the 5^th and 6^th seal, waiting on the rapture that will end the church age. What is the final sentence at the 6th seal? "The day of His wrath has come." (Remember, we have no appointment with His wrath. He comes to delivers us FROM His wrath.) So the 6th seal is for the signs of the Day of the Lord. What did Paul write, just three verses after his classic rapture verse? He wrote about the Day of the Lord coming at a time of peace and safety, but coming as a thief in the night. If we understand chapter 5 of 1 Thes., we see that Paul is showing us the rapture is the TRIGGER for the Day of the Lord. So this fits "hand in glove" with John in Rev. chapter 6.

 The rapture is the SUDDENLY in 1 Thes. At this suddenly, those in Christ are caught up, and those left behind get "sudden destruction." What is this sudden destruction? It is the worldwide earthquake caused by the resurrection of the dead in Christ. Matt. 27 says, "the earth did quake...and the graves were opened." We see also that there was a great earthquake when the two witnesses were raised. Make no mistake, when the dead in Christ are resurrected, there WILL BE a worldwide earthquake. We see that earthquake as the FIRST EVENT of the 6th seal (remember, it came right after the 5th seal.)

 It is NOT a coincidence that John then saw the raptured church IN HEAVEN in Rev. Chapter 7. Again, make no mistake, this IS the raptured church. Many are distracted by the two words, "great tribulation" and suppose these were killed by the Beast. But John has not yet even started the 70th week, must less got to the midpoint or the days of Great tribulation caused by the Beast and false prophet. So what is John's meaning here? It is simple, by the time of the rapture, there will be great tribulation around the world, meaning, people will be dying for their testimony. It is that way in half the world today, and it WILL move West. So the rapture will IMMEDIATELY bring on the signs of the start of the Day of the Lord: the sun turning dark, and the moon into blood. In Revelation, the rapture of the church will come JUST BEFORE the earthquake at the 6th seal.

I've read your reply a couple of times+ and made several notes.  The more I have thought about your reply, the more thoughts I have had.  And of course, I have some questions.  Where to begin?  I guess I would first like to say that I do share some of your feelings on some things.  Like this...

"For years pretribbers have tried to force a rapture upon Rev. 4:1. It is my guess, if we took 100 5th graders that had never been to a church and had them read this verse and tell us what they thought it means, NONE would come up with a rapture. They would all say that this was John being caught up to heaven, for the purpose of being taught things to come. It is truly sloppy exegesis to make this the rapture, and has opened to door wide for massive criticism, and rightly so. This was NEVER intended by the Author, to be the rapture."

And this...

"So what is the very next event in John's book? Of course the 6th seal comes after the 5^th seal. We are right now between the 5^th and 6^th seal, waiting on the rapture that will end the church age. What is the final sentence at the 6th seal? "The day of His wrath has come." (Remember, we have no appointment with His wrath. He comes to delivers us FROM His wrath.) So the 6th seal is for the signs of the Day of the Lord. What did Paul write, just three verses after his classic rapture verse? He wrote about the Day of the Lord coming at a time of peace and safety, but coming as a thief in the night. If we understand chapter 5 of 1 Thes., we see that Paul is showing us the rapture is the TRIGGER for the Day of the Lord. So this fits "hand in glove" with John in Rev. chapter 6."

And, there are other things that you say that I agree with.  However, as I have looked again at Revelation 4-5 and tried to envision things according to your position on it, I am not able to see it quite as you do.  A couple of reasons came almost immediately to mind...

1.  It seems to me that what you make of John's reaction (Rev. 5:4) when "no man" could be found who was worthy to take the book would suggest that John was yet without a keen concept of Christ's worthiness.  Or, at best, he had a momentary lapse of realization concerning Christ's worthiness.  You did not make any comments concerning this, but such a notion would seem bizarre---especially with him just having seen Jesus and having received of Him the instructions that he did (Rev. 1:10-3:22).

What would be my answer for John's reaction?  Try to imagine what all was going on in John's mind already, on account of what he had seen and heard that day when he began to receive The Revelation.  He "was in the Spirit" (Rev. 1:10) and had just seen Christ and been instructed of Him concerning the letters to the seven churches (1:11-3:22).  And now, he just received this invite to "Come up hither..." (4:1), where he sees all he sees.  Whew!  And then, his attention is drawn to this Seven Sealed Book in the right hand of "Him that sat on the throne" (5:1).  And then the question is asked, "Who is worthy to open the book..." (5:2).  I highlighted Who is worthy because I believe this part of the question gave John great pause.  I believe this part of the question should give us all great pause.  I believe with John, it would have been the same as with me or you iamlamad---It would have gone without saying that Jesus Christ was worthy!  That was a given, like "Duh!"  I could see it being more like the angel was looking for a nominee, perhaps.  Like, God was interested in bestowing the honor of opening that book to the most faithful of those of His who had ever been saved, and "Who would it be!"  Like, who would be the worthiest!  Were there any nominees?  Were there no nominees?  What about Enoch?  No.  What about Abraham?  No.  What about Moses?  No.  What about Noah, or Daniel, or Job (Ezek. 14:14)?  No.  And, what about John---the Apostle John?  Can you imagine John standing there, having glanced at any of the aforementioned and seeing them to quickly motion his glance away from them?  I can almost imagine the conviction of John's own heart concerning himself.  He had certainly never been in a place like this---such HOLINESS, and the four beasts "round about the throne" all the while saying "HOLY, HOLY, HOLY, LORD GOD ALMIGHTY, WHICH WAS, AND IS, AND IS TO COME" (4:8).  Can you imagine the millions, the billions, and it being said, "And no man in Heaven, nor in Earth, neither under the earth was able to open the book, neither to look thereon" (5:3)---not even John himself.  And, if we had been there, not even not an echo.  Not even iamlamad.  If all humanity had of been there, the heart of all humanity in unison would have been deeply convicted.  I have often thought that if we could only see how far we are removed from what Adam and Eve were before the fall, it would deeply shake us.  How much was John shaken that day, in the Throne Room of Heaven?  He said, "And I wept much..." (5:4).  I believe he started bawling his eyes out.  I think he might have been thinking something like, "Is mankind---even me---even saved---even yet---so very unworthy?"

Now, whereas John had not yet picked up on the real nature of the inquiry, I believe everyone else in Heaven knew right well.  Yeah, they knew!  And, I believe they were eager to see John's reaction when he was let in on the reason for the build up.  I can see all eyes on John and in the direction of THE ONE who was fixing to make the scene.  While John was still weeping, eyes full of tears, he said, "And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not:  behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof" (5:5).  And then John saw the Lamb, and everything started making all the sense in the world!  I'd say all his tears of grief suddenly changed to tears of gratefulness.  And, there was a rejoicing time of times in Heaven!  I think I've got a message brewing. 

2.  As I see things, you're take is hopelessly in conflict with the "hereafter" of Revelation 4:1.  According to your take, the first four seals would have been opened some 63 years prior.

Maybe I'm wrong iamlamad.  But, it sure seems to me that what John was seeing in the Throne Room was in real time.  I don't see any reason to seek an understanding other than real time.  But, I do see some reasons not to.  And, I have more, but I have to go for now...

[iamlamad]

10 hours ago, not an echo said:

 

And, there are other things that you say that I agree with.  However, as I have looked again at Revelation 4-5 and tried to envision things according to your position on it, I am not able to see it quite as you do.  A couple of reasons came almost immediately to mind...

1.  It seems to me that what you make of John's reaction (Rev. 5:4) when "no man" could be found who was worthy to take the book would suggest that John was yet without a keen concept of Christ's worthiness.  Or, at best, he had a momentary lapse of realization concerning Christ's worthiness.  You did not make any comments concerning this, but such a notion would seem bizarre---especially with him just having seen Jesus and having received of Him the instructions that he did (Rev. 1:10-3:22).

Why not believe it just as it is written? This was an angel apparently sent to find someone worthy to take the book and open the seals. It must be the qualifications were what was written on the outside of the book. This search took place in heaven, on earth and in hades. In other words, it was a very very thorough search. Yet, it ended in failure to find a man worthy to take the book. What if it was written on the outside of the Book that ONLY a man who could defeat death under His own power and rise up out of hell under His own power would be qualified?

What if God is showing us TIMING here? What if this search John watched was BEFORE Christ rose from the Dead? Would that then fit the vision exactly as written? What were Jesus' words to me?

2. “John watched a search to find one worthy to open the seals—a search that ended in failure—and that is the reason John wept much: no man was found worthy. However, if you read ahead, you find that I was found worthy to break the seals. Why then was I not found in that first search?”

Jesus said the search ended in failure. In other words, wherever that angel went and shouted "who is worthy" only silence answered. So John wrote, "no man was found.

So what happened between those verses and the next verse when Jesus was found? John did not tell us, but we can read between the lines, and use other verses to fill in. Apparently Jesus rose from the dead, so when the Angel came again in his next search, As soon as the angel cried, WHO IS WORTHY... Jesus answered.

Personally, I am going to trust Jesus. He said that first search ended in failure so that is good enough for me. It fits exactly with what is written.

Quote

without a keen concept of Christ's worthiness.

I think you are missing the point: this is speaking of a very specific "worthiness." Jesus had to qualify for whatever was written on the outside of the book. I am convinced the qualifications had to include someone rising from the dead and escaping hades under their own power. ONLY JESUS could do this, but He could only qualify AFTER He rose from the dead. As Jesus said to me, this passage of scripture shows TIMING and the MOVEMENT of time.

When someone is "in the Spirit" their senses do not function as normal! It has happened to me. When He spoke I was "in the Spirit" and my natural senses were gone. It was my spirit man that answered, and since I was "in the Spirit" I heard what I said.

Did you notice what was written about Jesus becoming worthy? "the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book..." What does this tell us? It tells us that it was something Jesus did - something He prevailed over that caused Him to become worthy to open the seals and so open the book. It is evident to me that what Jesus prevailed over that no man has every before prevailed over is DEATH. I think God is showing us TIMING and in this verse Jesus just rose from the dead, and was then found worthy to take the book.

We don't know if John understood this part of the vision or not. We can be sure He wrote it exactly as he was suppose to write it.

[iamlamad]

10 hours ago, not an echo said:

...

2.  As I see things, you're take is hopelessly in conflict with the "hereafter" of Revelation 4:1.  According to your take, the first four seals would have been opened some 63 years prior.

Maybe I'm wrong iamlamad.  But, it sure seems to me that what John was seeing in the Throne Room was in real time.  I don't see any reason to seek an understanding other than real time.  But, I do see some reasons not to.  And, I have more, but I have to go for now...

What neither you or I know is what was written on the outside of the book - probably the qualifications of WHO could take the book and open the seals.

I wonder, did you make an attempt to answer Jesus' questions to me?

Many people imagine an ONLY in John's book: that he was to write ONLY things hereafter. Go ahead and search: see if you can find the word "only." It is not there. Did John write of things in the hereafter? Certainly He did - many things. But the way God worded things, it certainly left Him open to include things in the past.

Then remember, I was struggling. Weeks of intense study went by and I could not answer His questions. He had mercy on my slowness and sent me to Revelation 12. For what purpose? To get a key: "History lesson." (His words, not mine.")

If you were in God's place and wanted to introduce John to the book with seven seals, but chose to start 60 years into John's past, how would you have done it? Sure, God COULD have just come out and said things to make it clearer - but as you know, often God leaves us puzzles to solve. I was unable to solve this on my own.  I needed His help. Remember His first words to me?

 “Son, I will ask you three questions about this passage of scripture. Until you can answer these questions correctly, you will never understand this vision.

I WANTED to understand "this vision." God has set me in the church in the office of a teacher. I want to teach, but I want to teach TRUTH.

[not an echo]

On 3/23/2022 at 10:18 AM, iamlamad said:

On 3/22/2022 at 11:51 PM, not an echo said:

 

And, there are other things that you say that I agree with.  However, as I have looked again at Revelation 4-5 and tried to envision things according to your position on it, I am not able to see it quite as you do.  A couple of reasons came almost immediately to mind...

1.  It seems to me that what you make of John's reaction (Rev. 5:4) when "no man" could be found who was worthy to take the book would suggest that John was yet without a keen concept of Christ's worthiness.  Or, at best, he had a momentary lapse of realization concerning Christ's worthiness.  You did not make any comments concerning this, but such a notion would seem bizarre---especially with him just having seen Jesus and having received of Him the instructions that he did (Rev. 1:10-3:22).

Why not believe it just as it is written? This was an angel apparently sent to find someone worthy to take the book and open the seals. It must be the qualifications were what was written on the outside of the book. This search took place in heaven, on earth and in hades. In other words, it was a very very thorough search. Yet, it ended in failure to find a man worthy to take the book. What if it was written on the outside of the Book that ONLY a man who could defeat death under His own power and rise up out of hell under His own power would be qualified?

What if God is showing us TIMING here? What if this search John watched was BEFORE Christ rose from the Dead? Would that then fit the vision exactly as written? What were Jesus' words to me?

2. “John watched a search to find one worthy to open the seals—a search that ended in failure—and that is the reason John wept much: no man was found worthy. However, if you read ahead, you find that I was found worthy to break the seals. Why then was I not found in that first search?”

Jesus said the search ended in failure. In other words, wherever that angel went and shouted "who is worthy" only silence answered. So John wrote, "no man was found.

So what happened between those verses and the next verse when Jesus was found? John did not tell us, but we can read between the lines, and use other verses to fill in. Apparently Jesus rose from the dead, so when the Angel came again in his next search, As soon as the angel cried, WHO IS WORTHY... Jesus answered.

Personally, I am going to trust Jesus. He said that first search ended in failure so that is good enough for me. It fits exactly with what is written.

Hello iamlamad,

While I have been away, I haven't forgot about our discussion.  Of course, I have been kinda able to see where you are coming from, but for me, the direction you take ends up posing more problems than it solves.  Again, that's for me.

Concerning your opening question, part of believing it "just as it is written" is believing that John was fixing to be shown things which were to be "hereafter" (Rev. 4:1).  But, not only do you conclude that John was taken back to the past to be shown a fruitless search by an angel to find someone "worthy to open the book and to loose the seals thereof" (5:1), you conclude that the first four seals of the book were opened as soon as Christ ascended---some 63 years prior.  If this was indeed the case, I still cannot see John drawing a blank on who in the world could have been worthy, especially such a blank that he was rendered to weeping "much" (5:4).  Again, that Jesus Christ would have been seen by John to be worthy would have been a given---like seeing the One on the throne to be worthy!  My reasoning tells me that John was at first thinking in terms of a mere "man" (5:3).  And, for this category of search, even he could not make the cut.  That the corrupted fallen condition of mankind is such that none among us---even now---even saved--is worthy to even "look" upon that book (5:3-4) should cause us in unison to weep much---and to run to The Risen Christ!  

Concerning your next to last paragraph, while you say that John did not tell us "what happened between those verses and the next verse when Jesus was found",  you come to these conclusions:  That there was a "next search" and the angel "cried, WHO IS WORTHY" and that "Jesus answered."  Perhaps.  But, what if the angel knew all along (which I believe he did!) and all the hosts of Heaven knew all along (which I believe they did!) and that the grand purpose of the whole ceremony---to which John received the invite---was to confer the charge of the Seven Sealed Book to the only One in the world Who was worthy---The Lamb of God, Jesus Christ!  I don't think anything needs to be looked for between the last of 5:4 and the first of 5:5.  Rather, I think it is interesting how ready "one of the elders" already was to point out for John just Who it was around Whom the whole event revolved: "The Lion of the tribe of Juda, The Root of David" (5:5), and "The Lamb" (5:8)---none other that Jesus Christ!