2021 Rapture

[seeking the lost]

6 hours ago, iamlamad said:

  Hmmm. Could you show the scripture that says specifically that the Gathering (Paul's rapture gathering) comes AFTER wrath? People always want something written word for word. Sorry, but God did not provide word for word pretrib, posttrib, midtrib or prewrath. Such a verse does not exist. This is why there is always so much disagreements on these threads. We have only the scriptures given so we try our best to understand them. 

To better answer your question, I see timing in 1 Thes. 5. First, just three verses after Paul classic rapture verse in chapter 4, Paul mentions the Day of the Lord - just as if the rapture and the Day of the Lord are somehow connected.  He tells us that "the day of the Lord" will come as a thief in the night. Another verse tell us JESUS comes as a thief in the night. So WHY, Paul? WHY does the Day of the Lord Come as a thief  in the night? I think he tells us: first, the rapture is most certainly a COMING of our Lord (As a thief in the night - a time totally unexpected) but first Paul tells us He is coming to catch up His bride. The reason the DAY comes as a thief is that the rapture will be the trigger for the DAY.  So the rapture comes like a thief in the night, and instantly after, THE DAY comes as a thief in the night. Paul then gives us a paradigm: bringing two groups of people right up to show us the different outcomes for the two groups: after the dead in Christ rise (causing a worldwide earthquake) two groups get two different results: those that are IN CHRIST get raptured ("salvation") and get to "live together with Him" ("so shall we ever be with the Lord"); while the other group - all those left behind because they were NOT "in Christ" get the sudden destruction from the worldwide earthquake. (See Matthew 27: "the earth did quake...and the graves were opened")

Then Paul speaks of wrath  - that the sudden destruction is the start of God's wrath - telling us that God is not setting any appointments for us - with His wrath. The appointments with wrath are for those not in Christ. 

Therefore, my conclusion is that Paul's rapture is coming JUST BEFORE the start of the Day of the Lord or the Day of His wrath. In Revelation I find the start of the Day of the Lord or the Day of His wrath at the 6th seal. Therefore, I place Paul's rapture as coming JUST before the earthquake at the 6th seal. 

For further proof, in the next chapter (Rev 7) John saw the raptured church in heaven - the group too large to number.  Imagine maybe 50 generations of believers all together - billions of people - plus all the children that will be raptured with the church. I think it would take someone over 30 years to count to one billion. It is a crowd TOO large to number. 

For further proof, examine the 5th seal: the martyrs of the church age: they are told they must WAIT for judgment to come. How long a wait? Until the very last martyr in their category - as church age martyrs - gets killed or martyred. What will cause a certain martyr to be the very last and fullfill their number? The rapture will END the church age. So the last martyr just before the rapture will be the last in that category: God knows the full number and when that number comes, the rapture will take place. 

It is no mistake that the seal for the martyrs is JUST BEFORE the 6th seal start of judgment.  Therefore I find three solid reasons why Paul's' rapture will be just before the start of the Day of the Lord - or just before the 6th seal. 

Search as you will, it will be very difficult to find anywhere that Jesus spoke directly about the Gentile church of today.  Why is this? Because He was sent to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel. We could almost say that the Gentile church was plan B for God: He waited for years after Jesus resurrection for Israel as a nation to accept Jesus as their Messiah. They would not and did not - So God put blindness on them and turned to the Gentiles. Therefore, if you study the Olivet discourse, you find mentions of synagogues where Jews gather, but no churches or homes where the church gathered in those days.

You find evidence Jesus was talking about the time of Jacob's trouble - when He mentioned the abomination that divides the week. That week of years is for Daniel's people - NOT THE CHURCH. Therefore I don't expect Jesus to mention much of anything about the Gentile church. The Jewish church died out. I see the same thing in John's messages to the church: it seems for every one of them, they must endure the 70th week. (Those 7 churches were Jewish congregations. John was over them, so tradition tells us. Paul wrote that God sent him to the Gentiles, but the 11 disciples to the lost sheep of Israel.  We have Paul to thank for the church of today.

Yes, I think the tares ARE taken out first - but maybe first during the 70th week: but this is after the Gentiles are taken out. It will be either the 6th trumpet event (tares) or this parable will be played out after Jesus returns. (It seems John did not see it or write of it). I think the Jews will be gathered after Armageddon.  (Some people seem to think that two major harvests take place in the timing of chapter 14. I don't. I see those scriptures as prophetic - pointing to the future (from the timing of chapter 14 - which is a midpoint chapter.) In other words, we have to ask "first before WHAT?" Here are the key verses:

the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

⁴⁰ As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

⁴¹ The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

⁴² And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

In other words, it has to be at the end, and angels do it. I think the 200 million army is an army of angels. I suspect it will be the lawless people taken out at the 6th trumpet. It might be the parable of the tares.  Or, perhaps the sheep and goat judgment is the parable of the tares. In either case, I don't see a conflict here with Paul's pretrib rapture, which will happen just before "the end"  - which I see as the 70th week that ends the Jewish age.

Please point to a specific scripture if I did not answer to your satisfaction. 

Do people suddenly disappear (sent to heaven and home) the moment they say a sinner's prayer? No; God leaves us here in the word to WORK the works of Jesus. But while we are here, He certainly protects us. In the end, he WILL take us out, but only because He will pour out His wrath.  I don't see any connection to REv. 9

This seal of protection is ONLY for descendants of Jacob and has nothing to do with Gentiles. 

There is no such thing as a pre-resurrection rapture.  You keep trying to add a resurrection in order to match your theology.  There is a warning against that.  The first resurrection is of the martyrs.  That does not include all believers because not all believers are martyred.  I know you want to add at your convenience in order to make your doctrine fit.

[Montana Marv]

28 minutes ago, seeking the lost said:

There is no such thing as a pre-resurrection rapture.  You keep trying to add a resurrection in order to match your theology.  There is a warning against that.  The first resurrection is of the martyrs.  That does not include all believers because not all believers are martyred.  I know you want to add at your convenience in order to make your doctrine fit.

Sorry, but there are only two resurrections. A person is either resurrected to the Just or they are resurrected to the Unjust.  Only two types.

Now it depends on how many entries there are into each.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[iamlamad]

31 minutes ago, seeking the lost said:

There is no such thing as a pre-resurrection rapture.  You keep trying to add a resurrection in order to match your theology.  There is a warning against that.  The first resurrection is of the martyrs.  That does not include all believers because not all believers are martyred.  I know you want to add at your convenience in order to make your doctrine fit.

Quote

There is no such thing as a pre-resurrection rapture

I agree with this! You are right. At the rapture event, a resurrection comes FIRST. 

I am not adding anything that Paul did not add. When you say Pre-resurrection - what exactly do you mean?Pre WHAT resurrection?  Ah! Now I understand: the resurrection in chapter 20:2 :I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus..."

Now at least I see where you are coming from. Of course we can pinpoint the timing of that resurrection as AFTER the days of GT when they were beheaded. So you are saying there cannot be another resurrection BEFORE that resurrection? Do you have a scripture to prove that?

What about Jesus' resurrection: was it not before that?

Did not notice what John wrote before "I saw the souls of them that were beheaded?"

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and..."  The "and" is a conjunction tying to thoughts together. So we have, ADDED to those beheaded or other than them beheaded, "THRONES" and "THEY."  Please tell us WHO are "they" seating on these thrones judging?

I know you want to add at your convenience in order to make your doctrine fit.  Do you really believe this?

Edited June 8, 2020 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

Just now, Montana Marv said:

Sorry, but there are only two resurrections. A person is either resurrected to the Just or they are resurrected to the Unjust.  Only two types.

Now it depends on how many entries there are into each.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Finally, a breath of fresh air - so to speak: TRUTH!

[seeking the lost]

4 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

Sorry, but there are only two resurrections. A person is either resurrected to the Just or they are resurrected to the Unjust.  Only two types.

Now it depends on how many entries there are into each.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Hi Marv,

I do believe that there are only two resurrections as they are recorded in Revelation 20.  Those that are raised in each resurrection and the time of those resurrections are very specific and not to be messed with.  Revelation 20: 4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

The first resurrection is at the end of the tribulation and before the thousand years.  The martyrs are raised to reign upon the earth.  (They are not going up)

The second resurrection is titled the rest of the dead.  This means that everyone that is not included in the first resurrection are included in this resurrection at the end of the thousand years.

[seeking the lost]

15 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I agree with this! You are right. At the rapture event, a resurrection comes FIRST. 

I am not adding anything that Paul did not add. When you say Pre-resurrection - what exactly do you mean?Pre WHAT resurrection?  Ah! Now I understand: the resurrection in chapter 20:2 :I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus..."

Now at least I see where you are coming from. Of course we can pinpoint the timing of that resurrection as AFTER the days of GT when they were beheaded. So you are saying there cannot be another resurrection BEFORE that resurrection? Do you have a scripture to prove that?

What about Jesus' resurrection: was it not before that?

Did not notice what John wrote before "I saw the souls of them that were beheaded?"

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and..."  The "and" is a conjunction tying to thoughts together. So we have, ADDED to those beheaded or other than them beheaded, "THRONES" and "THEY."  Please tell us WHO are "they" seating on these thrones judging?

I know you want to add at your convenience in order to make your doctrine fit.  Do you really believe this?

John who received the revelation from Jesus was well aware of the resurrection of Jesus and yet he declares that the resurrection at the end of the tribulation is the first resurrection.  The resurrection of the dead is yet a future hope and the rapture will follow as the believers are raised up on the last day at the end of the thousand years.  This is our blessed hope.

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

John who received the revelation from Jesus was well aware of the resurrection of Jesus and yet he declares that the resurrection at the end of the tribulation is the first resurrection.  The resurrection of the dead is yet a future hope and the rapture will follow as the believers are raised up on the last day at the end of the thousand years.  This is our blessed hope.

Ah! Your problem is, you did not check the Greek word translation into "first" in the KJV and almost every other. But first in WHAT? In TIME? No!  Here is what Strong's says:  first in time or place; then first in rank, influence, honour.

This same Greek word has also been translated as "chief." that would mean first in honor. 

Since we KNOW Jesus Resurrection as "firstfruits" was really first in time, then we also know the meaning here is first in honor. Doesn't that make sense, since it is for the righteous, and the "second Death" resurrection is for the damned?

Note: I did not add anything; I did not twist anything. I did nothing dishonest or dishonorable with this verse. I only try to understand it.

Edited June 9, 2020 by iamlamad

[seeking the lost]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

Ah! Your problem is, you did not check the Greek word translation into "first" in the KJV and almost every other. But first in WHAT? In TIME? No!  Here is what Strong's says:  first in time or place; then first in rank, influence, honour.

This same Greek word has also been translated as "chief." that would mean first in honor. 

Since we KNOW Jesus Resurrection as "firstfruits" was really first in time, then we also know the meaning here is first in honor. Doesn't that make sense, since it is for the righteous, and the "second Death" resurrection is for the damned?

Note: I did not add anything; I did not twist anything. I did nothing dishonest or dishonorable with this verse. I only try to understand it.

Whatever Greek gymnastics that you use there is not a resurrection before The last day that will support the we will not precede them of 1 Thessalonians.  What part of we will not precede them is it that you do not understand?

[iamlamad]

42 minutes ago, seeking the lost said:

Whatever Greek gymnastics that you use there is not a resurrection before The last day that will support the we will not precede them of 1 Thessalonians.  What part of we will not precede them is it that you do not understand?

What exactly does that phrase mean? Let's get the entire passage:

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

Do you not understand this? It is simple English. There are two groups of people in this verse:

1. Those that have previously died in Christ

2. These that are alive and remain [after the dead have arisen]  ("In Christ" is understood)

So Paul is talking about the dead and the alive in Christ. Which comes first? Or course the dead in Christ rise first, making the resurrection first before the catching up and changing. 

So what is there and where is there any verse that would prevent this double event from happening just before wrath as God has outlined?  (Wrath beginning at the 6th seal.)

Next, what does it have to do with Rev. 20 - since the timing of Rev. 20 is after the week has finished?

[seeking the lost]

6 hours ago, iamlamad said:

What exactly does that phrase mean? Let's get the entire passage:

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

Do you not understand this? It is simple English. There are two groups of people in this verse:

1. Those that have previously died in Christ

2. These that are alive and remain [after the dead have arisen]  ("In Christ" is understood)

So Paul is talking about the dead and the alive in Christ. Which comes first? Or course the dead in Christ rise first, making the resurrection first before the catching up and changing. 

So what is there and where is there any verse that would prevent this double event from happening just before wrath as God has outlined?  (Wrath beginning at the 6th seal.)

Next, what does it have to do with Rev. 20 - since the timing of Rev. 20 is after the week has finished?

Jesus and John both have the event of the dead in Christ rising at the end of the thousand years.  That is what Revelation 20 is all about.  There is nothing in the writing of Paul in Corinthians or Thessalonians that indicate that the time of the dead in Christ will rise before the wrath.  The one verse that prevents the double event from being before wrath is, Revelation 22: 18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.

All of our conversation is about the event of the dead in Christ rising.  You want to add a resurrection (dead in Christ rising) before the wrath.  I say that is not a good idea.