The Rapture Deception

[Diaste]

9 hours ago, The Light said:

 And yet there will be a pretrib rapture.

I do want to believe that. Many years ago now, it's the first thing I learned about the return of Jesus. Before I turned 16 I never heard He was coming back. This was big news. Biggest news I ever heard. So I looked it over and listened. Then I read...everything. It was all pretrib. That was fine. I believed it. It sounded right and I was so very excited about Him coming back and a bunch of people taken straight to heaven. Quite astonishing! 

But the study didn't end there of course. The next step, over time, was checking all the references these authors provided.That was a good thing as verifying got me into scripture in a big way, especially eschatology. 

What I found was a description of the rapture (I'm only calling it that for clarity as the actual terms are 'caught up' or 'gathered' and not bastardized Latin) complete with every aspect; Who, what, when, where and why. All the questions answered concisely. The problem is this 'rapture' is not pretrib, it's after the A of D. So I set myself to looking for a 'rapture' that's pretrib that answers the question of "When?"

It seemed to me that if we could find a worldwide gathering of believers in Jesus complete with timing slated for after the 'tribulation of those days' then certainly the Lord granted the answer of timing for a pretrib 'rapture'. But I can't find it. 40 years later I can't find it. All our brothers and sisters on this forum cannot find scripture that shows timing for a 'pretrib rapture'. Not one author I read could provide any such timing. 

The main pretrib 'rapture' verses from 1 Thess 4, 1 Thess 5 and 1 Cor 15 speak to the order of the 'rapture', characteristics, and how it's occurrence will be perceived, but no timing. The Revelation of Jesus Christ does not speak to a pretrib 'rapture' that shows timing. 

I understand we can make convincing arguments for just about any position known to mankind but I'm not interested in anything less than fact, none of us should be. If it could be shown timing exists for a pretrib 'rapture' akin to 'after the tribulation of those days', ' these are they which came out of great tribulation', 'that day shall not come except there come a falling away and the man of sin is revealed' then I would be willing to examine that with an open mind and heart. 

 

[Diaste]

7 hours ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

JESUS was not speaking of a 24-hour day on the man-made calendar, but the seventh and final Day evidently, and exactly as soon as END the sixth Day(midnight), and the seventh Day begins, that is the Day established by God in His Plan for the restoration or RESTITUTION of all things. God said before the creation of sun: Genesis 1:v.5-And the evening and the morning were the 1st Day. 2 Peter 3:v.8- But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one Day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one Day.

Hey,

I'm thinking Peter was quoting Psalm 90:4 

"For in Your sight a thousand years are but a day that passes, or a watch of the night."

A day is not equal to a thousand years. This is saying God is not bound by time. Peter is speaking to the idea that people feel God takes too long in His fulfillment of His precious promises. Peter tells them God is not slacking, He does not count time as we do for as an immortal time is not a concept. We are bound and enslaved by time, God is not.

[Justin Adams]

2 minutes ago, Diaste said:

I understand we can make convincing arguments for just about any position known to mankind

Yes... and I think I read them all. Sad to say many millions have been thus wasted. One thing is for sure. It was deliberately obscured by the Lord about the first advent, and only dim hints are available for the second. As the apostle said, 'had they but known, they never would have killed the King of Glory.."

So I suggest we are not SUPPOSED to know, since the principalities and powers will also not know either. There are many ex-sons of God that will hinder us enough anyway. They also do not know and any fear that folk feel about uncertain times is a transference from the dark side.

So why do we spin our wheels endlessly? - OH, maybe I do know because anything that can DELAY the 'fulfillment of the Gentiles' means the baddies get a reprieve.. Maybe we should get more folks saved and win the war of attrition that way. Perhaps have household barbeques for well spaced and masked unsaved neighbors. We can use the prophecy books to fuel the fires for ages.

Anyone that says they have the Eschaton all figured out, as Dr Heiser says, "you can safely ignore them".

[Diaste]

14 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Nope, the Rapture is the Gathering, the Day of the Lord starts Gods Wrath which runs for 1260 days. Then the Second Coming happens with Jesus and the Bride returning from Heaven to earth. They were fearing they were in the DOTL, which  starts on day 1260 out of 2520 days of the 70th week. But Paul told them that can not be the case because the Departure [of them/the Church] must happen before the Man of Sin AND the DOTL comes, they both come at the same time, on day 1261, the 1260, meaning there is 1260 days Remaining until Jesus' Second  Coming.

The Gathering doesn't happen on the DOTL, its Pre 70th week to start with, but you have it and the Second Coming on the same day it seems. It couldn't happen there either, because the DOTL lasts 42 months. 

I get that you have great conviction in what you say. It's not proof. Have any proof beyond sermons?

14 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Jesus said ALL TIME is tribulation. 

Chapter and verse within the context of the end of the age and the coming of the Lord?

14 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Jesus told us we would have CONTINUAL TRIBULATION while on earth, and that remains the case until Satan is thus defeated. 

I know. But the context is the end of the age and the coming of the Lord. 

14 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

The Great TROUBLES and the Wrath of God cover the exact same 42 months.  

Not possible. That would mean many believers in Jesus are in the wrath of God. Isn't 'we are not appointed to wrath' the rationale Pretrib uses to escape the 70th week? How is it then you cast believers in Jesus into the same wrath which you escape? 

14 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Well of course it did, you are saying it means Rebellion, that is what Apostasy came to be known. The KJV made sure that the word MORPHED into that just like Gay used to mean only Happy. Now if you look up Gay it means something different, but the other word is still defined also, in 400 years the other word will be gone from the lexicon. The First 7 English Translations had DEPARTURE, and that which wad going to DEPART at the Gathering/Rapture was the Church. Try as you might brother, the Rapture ain't going to happen after the 70th week begins. 

Just to let you know, this verse would not change anything the way you think it does anyway, you could have a REBELLION after the Rapture without the Church being here for it either. But that is not what it means, it the Departure of the Church, our mission is over, we are not needed on this  evil earth after Matthew 24:14.

No, it did not morph into anything and I am not saying it means any particular thing. Both Strong's and the etymology of 'apostasia' tell us the origin and the definition. 

"late 14c., "renunciation, abandonment or neglect of established religion," from Late Latin apostasia, from later Greek apostasia for earlier apostasis "revolt, defection," literally "a standing off," from apostanai "to stand away" (see apostate (n.)). General (non-religious) sense "abandonment of what one has professed" is attested from 1570s."

"mid-14c., "one who forsakes his religion or faith," from Old French apostat and directly from Late Latin apostata (which form also was used in English), from Greek apostasia, apostasis "defection, desertion, rebellion," from apostanai "to defect," literally "to stand off," from apo "off, away from" (see apo-) + stanai, aorist of histanai "to set, place," literally "cause to stand," from PIE root *sta- "to stand, make or be firm."

Used from mid-14c. in non-religious situations, "one who has forsaken the party, opinion, etc., to which he previously adhered.""

None of the above has any relation to 'harpazo' and 'apostasia' has always meant defection.

14 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Its in JUXTAPOSITION to being a Beast. Did Hitler become the 7th Head of the Beast ?

Avoidance tactic per your usual behavior. Out of context to deflect from a poor position. A nice term for this is intellectual dishonesty. 

 

[Diaste]

21 minutes ago, Justin Adams said:

Anyone that says they have the Eschaton all figured out, as Dr Heiser says, "you can safely ignore them".

Correct. Concepts can be understood with great clarity, the exact fulfillment is a mystery as through a mirror darkly.

[choir loft]

19 hours ago, The Light said:

 

TheLight wrote: Refuting your logic with scripture

First lets start with a proper translation, KJV. The correct word translated is eagles, not vultures.

Luke 17

³⁶ Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

³⁷ And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

Eagles are the same as vultures.   You are dancing on the head of a pin. As a fine point of instruction, eagles prefer to eat things alive but will eat dead things if hunting is bad.  Eagles eat carrion too.  Look it up.  

Not for nothing was the national symbol of Nazi Germany an eagle.  Not for nothing is the national bird of America the same.  The natural tendency of eagles AND vultures is to assimilate dead and living matter into its being.   The same is true as a description of demons.  Neither eagle nor vulture are noble birds.  According to the Bible they are unclean animals not worthy of respect or diet.

You aren't using logic to examine your own quotation.   "Where the corpses are" is a reference to the DEAD - to HELL.  You refuse to accept the literal meaning of the quoted scripture.  That's not my problem.  It's yours.  The only way to arrive at your conclusion is to corrupt the meaning and intent of God's Word.  The saints are gathered to - hell?

You are correct in your interpretation of Revelation 14, but you've used that passage to apply to a scripture that speaks of something entirely different.  Again, you corrupt your own interpretation so as to justify doctrine, not to determine it.  You are putting your dogma before scripture.  Doctrine comes from scripture.  Rapture fans put doctrine first and justify its error with snippets of scripture.  Their logic requires false interpretation.  

The context of the Bible teaches that God does NOT remove His people from trouble.  

He walks with them through it.  Remember Shadrach Meshach & Abednego?  God walked WITH THEM in the fire.  He didn't grant them a bye.  Remember the Hebrews at the Red Sea?  God split the sea and allowed them to walk THROUGH trouble to escape.  He didn't lift them over it.  The Rapture is a doctrine of COWARDS because it persuades the gullible that God will extract them from trouble when in fact He will not. Faith grows by walking with God through difficulty, not in hoping falsely for an early excusal.  Therein lies the deception of the devil - to deny faith in God by means of false hope.  If Christians are to be conquerors, then they must fight difficulty not seek ways to run away from it. God hates a coward.

‘But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.’ - Revelation 21:8 

There is nothing worse in this world than an enslaved man who naively believes himself free, except, perhaps, trying to explain to that same man his predicament.

You can lay truth after truth before his feet. You can qualify your every position with cold hard irrefutable data. You can plead and scream and raise veritable hell, but before he will ever listen, he must first become aware of his own dire circumstances. As long as he views himself as safe and secure, as long as he imagines his chains to be wings, he will see no reason to question the validity of the world around him, and he will certainly never invest himself into changing his own deluded destiny.  - Anonymous

The doctrine of the Rapture, indeed the entire false interpretation of End Times events was originally submitted as a revised interpretation of Daniel & Revelation by the Jesuit order of the Catholic church some five hundred years ago.  The brilliant Catholic apologist Francisco Ribera penned the interpretation, which has been followed by the Protestant church ever since - with increasing ferocity I may add.   Today the Protestant church virtually marches in lock-step with the blasphemous and demonic assertions made by Ribera and his adherents.  Today the Protestant church is a virtual echo of Catholic false doctrine and worship of its demi-god the pope. (*)   In the mid-19th century, during a virtual tsunami of demonic spiritualism that swept over America, John Nelson Darby picked up on many of Ribera's interpretations and gave it a modernized polish and refurbishment - calling it Rapture instead of Futurism.  His work was intensely popular as it remains to this day despite its vigorous defense of misinterpretation.

(As a point of reference when googling this term, plz note that 'Futurism' generally refers to the Arts & Music rather than theology.   A more refined google search under 'theological futurism" will yield more accurate results.)

It should be pointed out to the reader that both the original fabrication 'futurism' and the more current revision 'rapture' were and continue to be demonic assaults upon faith.  In order to convey futurism or rapture ideology one must submit the context of scripture to obfuscated interpretation and End Times ideology that God did not intend.  A deliberate and literal examination of scripture, devoid of 1,500 years of Catholic attempts to muddy the truth will reveal much that is not popular today.

Rapture fans absolutely refuse any reference to truth, be it in correct interpretation of scripture, references to historic attempts to overturn it in American history as well as religious history of the church as a whole.  In order to falsely interpret scripture only a few verses are accepted as truth while all the rest require modification in literal interpretation;  death doesn't mean death, fire doesn't refer to destruction, and carrion birds refer to angels rather than demonic powers.  For these purveyors of false ideology the power of the comic book and the influence of the Holy See has displaced the truth of Holy Writ.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

(*)  Blaspheme is defined as asserting one to be God who is not:

"The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in heaven and earth." Barclay Cap. XXVII, p. 218. Cities Petrus Bertrandus, Pius V.

 

 

 

Edited April 22, 2020 by choir loft

[The Light]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

Quote

I do want to believe that. Many years ago now, it's the first thing I learned about the return of Jesus. Before I turned 16 I never heard He was coming back. This was big news. Biggest news I ever heard. So I looked it over and listened. Then I read...everything. It was all pretrib. That was fine. I believed it. It sounded right and I was so very excited about Him coming back and a bunch of people taken straight to heaven. Quite astonishing! 

Same here.

Quote

But the study didn't end there of course. The next step, over time, was checking all the references these authors provided.That was a good thing as verifying got me into scripture in a big way, especially eschatology. 

Over time my next step was studying translations. Was I getting a translation of what someone thought or was I getting a word by word translation. Once I switched to the King James Version, things became clearer. No more getting sent off in the wrong direction.

Quote

What I found was a description of the rapture (I'm only calling it that for clarity as the actual terms are 'caught up' or 'gathered' and not bastardized Latin) complete with every aspect; Who, what, when, where and why. All the questions answered concisely. The problem is this 'rapture' is not pretrib, it's after the A of D. So I set myself to looking for a 'rapture' that's pretrib that answers the question of "When?"

It became clear to me that the rapture was after the tribulation and before the wrath of God. As you say it was concise, no questions. (later I realized there was a question and that was WHO) I'm like wondering how anyone could say the rapture was pretrib. It made no sense when we can clearly see the cosmic signs in Matt 24 are the same signs we see in Rev 6. I'm mean, God is clear, or so I thought. He says when you see all these things know that it is near, even at the doors. That's cut and dried, no doubt clear. This is the rapture. He's coming after all these things that are described in Matt 24. The false Christs, the wars and rumors of wars, famine, pestilences etc. These are the beginning of sorrows (The 1st 4 seals). Then we get delivered up and afflicted and killed and then there is great tribulation. And then praise God Jesus comes. But at least we know we are going thru the tribulation before He comes, so we know without a doubt where we stand. We will not be in the wrath of God. We are not appointed to wrath.

Matt 24

³³ So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

Whoa, whoa, whoa, hold on now. This is confusing. Jesus just told us when we SEE ALL THESE THINGS, and now in Luke, He says when these things begin to come to pass. Well, that's two different situations.

Luke 21

²⁸ And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Okay, Okay, what's this then. How can I see all these thing come to pass in Matt 24, but in Luke He says that we can ESCAPE ALL THESE THINGS that shall come to pass, AND STAND BEFORE THE SON OF MAN. That makes no sense whatsoever. I'm going to see these things and yet escape these things and STAND BEFORE THE SON OF MAN?

Luke 21

³⁶ Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

So, maybe He is talking about two different people. Maybe He is talking about the Jews in Matt 24 that are told to look up when they see all these things. If you think about it, the 70th week is about the Jews. We know that 70 weeks are determined on thy people and upon the Holy City. This is the Jews, not Gentiles. So it's the Jews that go through the tribulation and it's the Gentiles that can escape all these things and STAND BEFORE THE SON OF MAN. So when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in part of Israel has it's blindness removed. They are the ones raptured in Matt 24, not the Church.

Quote

It seemed to me that if we could find a worldwide gathering of believers in Jesus complete with timing slated for after the 'tribulation of those days' then certainly the Lord granted the answer of timing for a pretrib 'rapture'. But I can't find it. 40 years later I can't find it. All our brothers and sisters on this forum cannot find scripture that shows timing for a 'pretrib rapture'. Not one author I read could provide any such timing. 

Why does this come as a shock? If I told you I have a surprise for you and you said great, tell me when. I would say it's a surprise. Would you say that you don't believe that I was going to surprise you because I wouldn't tell you when? God makes it crystal clear that He is going to come in an hour that you think not. How could He possibly do that if He gave you scriptures that point to exactly when He is coming.

Matt 24

⁴⁴ Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

He tells you that He is going to come in an hour that you think not. How could He possibly do that if He showed you when He was coming. You seem to not believe what He is telling you. It seems you have to see to believe. But He tells you He is coming in such an hour that you think not, and yet you are requiring Him to tell you when He is coming or you won't believe?

Quote

The main pretrib 'rapture' verses from 1 Thess 4, 1 Thess 5 and 1 Cor 15 speak to the order of the 'rapture', characteristics, and how it's occurrence will be perceived, but no timing. The Revelation of Jesus Christ does not speak to a pretrib 'rapture' that shows timing.

Again, you are asking for things that He directly tells you, that you are not going to know. And yet you see characteristic of the rapture. Yeah, you do. One time we see the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven, another time we see that He will send His angels to gather His elect from heaven and earth. Different characteristics. As for Revelation showing a pretrib rapture we can see the Church in heaven in Rev 5 before the seals are opened. We know that 24 elders cannot possibly be redeemed unto God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation. The 24 elders are obviously speaking for others that are there.

Quote

I understand we can make convincing arguments for just about any position known to mankind but I'm not interested in anything less than fact, none of us should be

I'm nothing but the facts. You won't see my imagination run away and tell you that the seals are already open, or that the 144,000 is the Church, or the 144,000 represents all Israel or that the abomination of desolation happens in the middle of the week or that Gog Magog happens before the 1000 years, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc. I go by EXACTLY what scripture says. If the scripture says that 144,000 are male virgins that are redeemed from the earth, that's exactly what they are. When it says they are 1st fruits, that's exactly what they are. We know that first fruits are presented to God and if found acceptable are a guarantee of a harvest. The real mystery of the scripture is why people have a problem believing EXACTLY what God says. If people would quit imagining what God says and simply believe what He says the end times and the raptures fall right into place.

Quote

. If it could be shown timing exists for a pretrib 'rapture' akin to 'after the tribulation of those days',

Why would you insist on timing. Why not accept EXACTLY what the Word of God says. Matt 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Quote

' these are they which came out of great tribulation', 'that day shall not come except there come a falling away and the man of sin is revealed' then I would be willing to examine that with an open mind and heart. 

The ones that come out of great tribulation are the ones that are in the great tribulation. That's the 12 tribes. It's the 70th week of Daniel, the time of Jacobs trouble. They are the ones that see the man of sin revealed. As for the Gentiles, the Church is already in heaven, and I suspect the foolish virgins will be given strong delusion and believe the lie. How is it that no one seems to understand that the 70th week of Daniel is about the Jews and not the Gentiles.

So you understand all the fallacy in the timing of what those that believe in a pretrib rapture say. You can see what they are saying is wrong. They think they know, but they are pretty clueless. They present their case. You see right through it, and see the errors that they cannot see. But they have one thing right. Luke 21 ³⁶ Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

That one piece of information is correct but most everything else they say is wrong. They present their arguments and you understand why what they are saying is wrong.You are letting the fact that you see the errors in what they say guide you into believing that they are wrong about a pretrib rapture. Yes, they are wrong when they say that the tribulation and wrath of God are the same time frame. It's hard to believe how wrong they are about everything, and you see it. But they are not wrong a about a pretrib rapture.

Just remember, the fig tree has two harvests and the 70th week of Daniel is about the Jews and not the Gentiles. There will be two raptures, one for the Church and one for the 12 tribes that are across the earth. Only the nation of Israel (and unbelievers) go through the wrath of God, and Israel, the woman, will be in a place of protection.

 

[WilliamL]

On 4/18/2020 at 10:42 PM, Revelation Man said:

 

On 4/18/2020 at 1:04 PM, BlessedCreator said:

2 Thessalonians 2:3
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away
first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

FALLING AWAY means DEPARTURE...........The first 7 English Translations before the KJV all had DEPARTURE, it is the Church that DEPARTS, before the DOTL and before the Anti-Christ comes forth. NOWHERE in the WHOLE PASSAGE is Faith even spoken of, thus they were not FALLING AWAY from  the faith or Departing the Faith..... The GATHERING TO Christ Jesus is SEEN in the very first verse, that is the subject, a Gathering unto Jesus so as to not be FEARFUL of the coming wrath of God because WE WON'T BE HERE !!
 

Correct, the "GATHERING TO Christ Jesus is SEEN in the very first verse." And the context is that that gathering to Jesus, "the Day of Christ (2:2)," shall not come until the apostasia takes place. If you translate apostasia to mean the departing in the Rapture, then you are saying that "the departing to Jesus shall not come until the Gathering to Jesus comes." Which would be a pretty nonsensical statement for Paul to make.

[WilliamL]

7 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

Anyone that says they have the Eschaton all figured out, as Dr Heiser says, "you can safely ignore them".

Surely My LORD God does nothing except he has revealed His secret unto His servants the prophets. Amos 3:7

...and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand. Daniel 12:10

[Justin Adams]

2 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Surely My LORD God does nothing except he has revealed His secret unto His servants the prophets. Amos 3:7

...and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand. Daniel 12:10

Typical... you quote only the last line of my post. That is why NO ONE knows the Eschaton because they splice and dice scriptures to suit their own narrative.