Those who were caught up to the cloud to be with the Lord FOREVER will not be overcome by antichrist, unless you are left behind

[Retrobyter]

On 5/6/2020 at 6:39 AM, R. Hartono said:

If it was just a vision then Peter would not offer to make tents.

Matt 17: 4 Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here. If You wish, I will put up three shelters—one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.”…

Retro,

It seems you understand that situation more than Peter did. You, a man of 2000 years later who was not even present there.

Shalom, R. Hartono.

Let’s just say that a man of 2000 years later has had more exposure to things like TV, movies, digital recordings, and holography. No, Peter was looking right at Mosheh and Eliyahuw, but that still doesn’t mean that they were there! Again, there was no touching to confirm their existence; Peter just ASSUMED they were there, because He was looking right at them!

In reality, though, they were no more "there" than the Kingdom of God was "there!" They had the great privilege of seeing this vision of the future early! A few blinks later, though, and they were GONE, just as quickly as they had arrived!

[douggg]

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

"Self that continues to be?" "Outer part of self?" That's just theological PHILOSOPHY! It's unsupported by any Scripture, and in a word, it's NONSENSE. Why wouldn't it at least be MENTIONED in the creation of the Man, if that's how it really is? No, this is all MADE UP OUT OF ONE'S IMAGINATION!

Because, unlike the animals, God breathed a spirit into the formed body of man from dust and the body become a living soul.     God is spirit.     And man was created in the likeness of God.      It was not until after the creation of man, that man fell into sin.

John 3:

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

When a person receives the gospel and believes upon Jesus, the person's soul is borne again of the Spirit right then and their soul is redeemed.     And I show on my diagrams, the Holy Spirit is  transforming the soul to life.      Comparative to a person growing up.  

 

 

 

 

Edited May 8, 2020 by douggg

[R. Hartono]

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, R. Hartono.

Let’s just say that a man of 2000 years later has had more exposure to things like TV, movies, digital recordings, and holography. No, Peter was looking right at Mosheh and Eliyahuw, but that still doesn’t mean that they were there! Again, there was no touching to confirm their existence; Peter just ASSUMED they were there, because He was looking right at them!

In reality, though, they were no more "there" than the Kingdom of God was "there!" They had the great privilege of seeing this vision of the future early! A few blinks later, though, and they were GONE, just as quickly as they had arrived!

Peter wud not offer to make tents if that was a vision.

[Retrobyter]

18 hours ago, douggg said:

Because, unlike the animals, God breathed a spirit into the formed body of man from dust and the body become a living soul.     God is spirit.     And man was created in the likeness of God.      It was not until after the creation of man, that man fell into sin.

John 3:

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

When a person receives the gospel and believes upon Jesus, the person's soul is borne again of the Spirit right then and their soul is redeemed.     And I show on my diagrams, the Holy Spirit is  transforming the soul to life.      Comparative to a person growing up.  

 

 

 

 

Shabbat shalom, douggg.

And, now we must talk about the OTHER Hebrew word: ruwach, often translated as "spirit":

7307 ruwach (roo'-akh). From ruwach; wind; by resemblance breath, i.e. A sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively, life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension, a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions)
-- air, anger, blast, breath, X cool, courage, mind, X quarter, X side, spirit((-ual)), tempest, X vain, ((whirl-))wind(-y).

7306 ruwach (roo-akh'). A primitive root; properly, to blow, i.e. Breathe; only (literally) to smell or (by implication, perceive (figuratively, to anticipate, enjoy)
-- accept, smell, X touch, make of quick understanding.

Now, with a proper understanding of Hebrew, one would see that the first word (7307) is the noun form and the second word (7306) is the verb form and the verb form is the root of the family. Most Hebrew words are based upon a three-letter root, in this particular case, reish-vav-chet, r-w-ch (the ch as in Loch Ness said by a Scot).

I am a strong proponent of, a student of, and an adherent of etymology. Whereas many are given to the UNION of definitions to make up the ultimate definition of a word, I believe in the INTERSECTION of the definitions of a word to acquire the original, simple definition of a word, which I believe is most often to be found in that word's etymology, and I believe that a Hebrew word's etymology is to be found in the root word of that word's family.

Strong's is good, but it's still vulnerable to misunderstandings based upon the author's theology. After all, it is a work of man that is susceptible to error, even if it's one of the best sources for many Christians. So, when one reads, "by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions)," one should understand that this statement is an OPINION based upon the writer's theological stance. However, the WORD USAGE says otherwise:

The word "ruwach" can also be found in Strong's Concordance (listed above and based on the KJV) as the words "air," "anger," "blast", "breath," "cool," "courage," "mind," "quarter," "side," "spirit," "spiritual," "tempest," "vain," "wind," "windy," and "whirlwind." It takes a bit longer than using the Englishman's Concordance, but it is still doable. By looking up each one of these words in the concordance, one simply finds all the entries under that word in the OT that have the number 7307 following the entry. Sometimes, one may have to use a plural word or a phrase that uses the word in some way, but one will eventually find all the occurrences in the OT that use the word "ruwach."

air: only Job 41:16 uses 7307
anger: Deuteronomy 4:25; 9:18; 31:29; 32:16, 21; Judges 2:12; 8:3; 1 Kings 14:9, 15; 15:30; 16:2, 7, 13, 26, 33; 21:22; 22:53; 2 Kings 17:11, 17; 21:6, 15; 22:17; 23:19; 2 Chronicles 28:25; 33:6; 34:25; Nehemiah 4:5; Psalm 78:58; (Psalm 85:4 uses 7308); Psalm 106:29; (Ecclesiastes 7:9 uses 7308); Isaiah 65:3; Jeremiah 7:18, 19; 8:19; 11:17; 25:6, 7; 32:29, 30, 32; 44:3; Ezekiel 8:17; 16:26; and Hosea 12:14
blast: Exodus 15:8; 2 Kings 19:7; Isaiah 25:4; and 37:7
breath: Genesis 6:17; 7:15; 2 Samuel 22:16; Job 4:9; 9:18; 12:10; 15:30; 17:1; 19:17; Psalm 18:15; 88:6; 104:29; 135:17; 146:4; Ecclesiastes 3:19; Isaiah 11:4; 30:28; 33:11; Jeremiah 10:14; 51:17; Lamentations 4:20; Ezekiel 37:5, 6, 8, 9, 10; and Habakkuk 2:19
cool: Genesis 3:8
courage: Joshua 2:11
mind: Genesis 26:35; Proverbs 29:11; Ezekiel 11:5; 20:32; Daniel 5:20; and Habakkuk 1:11
quarters: 1 Chronicles 9:24
side: Jeremiah 52:23; Ezekiel 42:16, 17, 18, and 19
sides: Ezekiel 42:20
spirit: Genesis 1:2; 6:3; 41:8, 38; 45:27; Exodus 6:9; 28:3; 31:3; 35:21, 31; Numbers 5:14, 30; 11:17, 25, 25, 26, 29; 14:24; 24:2; 27:18; Deuteronomy 2:30; 34:9; Joshua 5:1; Judges 3:10; 6:34; 9:23; 11:29; 13:25; 14:6, 19; 15:14, 19; 1Samuel 1:15; 10:6, 10; 11:6; 16:13, 14, 14, 15, 16, 23, 23; 18:10; 19:9, 20, 23; 30:12; 2Samuel 23:2; 1Kings 10:5; 18:12; 21:5; 22:21, 22, 23, 24; 2Kings 2:9, 15, 16; 1Chronicles 5:26, 26; 12:18; 28:12; 2Chronicles 9:4; 15:1; 18:20, 21, 22, 23; 20:14; 21:16; 24:20; 36:22; Ezra 1:1, 5; Nehemiah 9:20, 30; Job 4:15; 6:4; 7:11; 10:12; 15:13; 20:3; 21:4; 26:13; 27:3; 32:8, 18;33:4;34:14; Psalm 31:5; 32:2; 34:18; 51:10, 11, 12, 17; 76:12; 77:3,6; 78:8; 104:30; 106:33; 139:7; 142:3; 143:4, 7, 10; Proverbs 1:23; 11:13; 14:29; 15:4, 13; 16:18, 19, 32; 17:22, 27; 18:14, 14; 25:28; 29:23; Ecclesiastes 1:14, 17; 2:11, 17, 26; 3:21, 21; 4:4, 6, 16; 6:9; 7:8, 8, 9; 8:8; 10:4; 11:5; 12:7; Isaiah 4:4, 4; 11:2, 2, 2, 2; 19:3, 14; 26:9; 28:6; 29:10, 24; 30:1; 31:3; 32:15; 34:16; 38:16; 40:7, 13; 42:1, 5; 44:3; 48:16; 54:6; 57:15, 15, 16; 59:19, 21; 61:1, 3; 63:10, 11, 14; 65:14; 66:2; Jeremiah 51:11; Ezekiel 1:12, 20, 20, 20, 21; 2:2; 3:12, 14, 14, 24; 8:3; 10:17; 11:1, 5, 19, 24, 24; 13:3; 18:31; 21:7; 36:26, 27; 37:1, 14; 39:29; 43:5; Daniel 2:1, 3; (Daniel 4:8, 9, 18; 5:11, 12, 14; 6:3; and 7:15 all use 7308); Hosea 4:12; 5:4; Joel 2:28, 29; Micah 2:7, 11; 3:8; Haggai 1:14, 14, 14; 2:5; Zechariah 4:6; 6:8; 7:12; 12:1, 10; 13:2; Malachi 2:15, 15, and 16
spirits: Numbers 16:22; 27:16; Psalm 104:4; Proverbs 14:2; and Zechariah 6:5
spiritual: Hosea 9:7
tempest: Psalm 11:6
vain: Job 15:2; 16:3
whirlwind: Ezekiel 1:4
wind: Genesis 8:1; Exodus 10:13, 13, 19; 14:21; 15:10; Numbers 11:31; 2Samuel 22:11; 1Kings 18:45; 19:11, 11, 11; 2Kings 3:17; Job 1:19; 6:26; 7:7; 8:2; 15:2; 21:18; 30:15, 22; 37:21; Psalm 1:4; 18:10, 42; 35:5; 48:7; 78:39; 83:13; 103:16; 104:3; 107:25; 135:7; 147:18; 148:8; Proverbs 11:29; 25:14, 23; 27:16; 30:4; Ecclesiastes 1:6, 6; 5:16; 11:4; Isaiah 7:2; 11:15; 17:13; 26:18; 27:8; 32:2; 41:16, 29; 57:13; 64:6; Jeremiah 2:24; 4:11, 12; 5:13; 10:13; 13:24; 14:6; 18:17; 22:22; 51:1, 16; Ezekiel 5:2; 12:14; 13:11, 13; 17:10; 19:12; 27:26; 37:9, 9; (Daniel 2:35 uses 7308); Hosea 4:19; 8:7; 12:1; 13:15; Amos 4:13; Jonah 1:4; 4:8; and Zechariah 5:9
winds: Job 28:25; Jeremiah 49:32, 36, 36; Ezekiel 5:10, 12; 17:21; 37:9; (Daniel 7:2 uses 7308); Daniel 8:8; 11:4; and Zechariah 2:6
windy: Psalm 55:8

(The verses that use 7308 use the Aramaic form of the same word, ruwach.)

Now comes the REAL fun! One gets to look up each one of these references to see how the word is used in the verse/sentence!

I know I have a very tenacious attitude; I get a hold on a project like a pitbull on a hambone, and I LOVE to work on projects like that above! I used to do ALL my research on various words in Scripture in the same way! This was before I even knew there WAS an Englishman's Concordance! The Englishman's Concordance tells us that the word "ruwach" occurs 377 times in the Hebrew Bible (the OT). I'd have to COUNT all the ones I find, and I might make a mistake and miss one or more! Apparently, the Englishman's Concordance gets its information directly from the Hebrew of the Masoretic Text, although I don't know that for certain.

Still, my favorite part is to look up the verses and see how the main definition could be used in the sentence to make sense in the verses! For instance, it's easy to see how a person blowing might be said to be "making a wind." We do it in normal English conversation: If a person is "waxing eloquent," making a long speech, we say he's being "windy!" One might even say, he's a "windbag!"

But, a "wind" is an NON-LIVING FORCE of nature, the MOVEMENT of air molecules in the earth's atmosphere based upon the differential between an area of high pressure to that of a relatively low pressure, having been acted upon by an outside force, such as heat from the sun, that can transfer that force to other things and perform some work, like blowing a tumbleweed across the desert or a tornado blowing a house into another county!

Thus, "spirit," too, is seen in both human beings and animal life!

Genesis 7:13-16 (KJV)

13 In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark; 14 They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort. 15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath (Hebrew: ruwach) of life. 16 And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the LORD shut him in.

Thus, you are wrong when you said, "Because, unlike the animals, God breathed a spirit into the formed body of man from dust and the body become a living soul. God is spirit. And man was created in the likeness of God."

Also, you are wrong when you consider Yeshua`s words in His death in His "spirit" being anything more than His "last breath."

Matthew 27:45-50 (KJV)

45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour. 46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying,

"Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?"

that is to say,

"My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

47 Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said,

"This man calleth for Elias!" 

48 And straightway one of them ran, and took a spunge, and filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink. 49 The rest said,

"Let be, let us see whether Elias will come to save him!"

50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost (Greek: afeeken to pneuma = "released the wind/breath").

Mark 15:33-37 (KJV)

33 And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour. 34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying,

"Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"

which is, being interpreted,

"My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

35 And some of them that stood by, when they heard it, said,

"Behold, he calleth Elias!" 

36 And one ran and filled a spunge full of vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink, saying,

"Let alone; let us see whether Elias will come to take him down!" 

37 And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost (Greek: exepneusen = "breathed-out"; "expired").

Luke 23:44-46 (KJV)

44 And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour. 45 And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst. 46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said,

"Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit (Greek: paratithemai to pneuma mou = "I-entrust the wind/breath of-me"):

and having said thus, he gave up the ghost (Greek: exepneusen = "breathed-out"; "expired").

John 19:28-30 (KJV)

28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith,

"I thirst."

29 Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth. 30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said,

"It is finished":

and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost (Greek: paredooken to pneuma = "he-gave-over the wind/breath").

Here, the Greek word employed in all four accounts is "pneuma," and this is the word that was used several times in quotes from the OT to translate the Hebrew word "ruwach," and it means the same thing:

4151 pneuma (pnyoo'-mah). From pneoo; a current of air, i.e. Breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively, a spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, demon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy Spirit
-- ghost, life, spirit(-ual, -ually), mind. Compare psuchee.

4154 pneoo (pneh'-o). A primary word; to breathe hard, i.e. Breeze
-- blow. Compare psuchoo.

[Retrobyter]

On 5/8/2020 at 2:23 AM, R. Hartono said:

Peter wud not offer to make tents if that was a vision.

Shabbat shalom, R. Hartono.

No, it sounds EXACTLY like something Peter would do! If someone would have the boldness and rashness to step out onto choppy waves, expecting to be able to walk to Yeshua`, one learns that Peter "acts first and thinks later!"

Besides, I think I will believe Yeshua` over you; Yeshua` called it a "VISION!"

Matthew 17:9 (KJV)

9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, 

"Tell the vision (Greek: to horama = "the vision") to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead."

These are the same words as in what Peter saw later:

Acts 10:9-20 (KJV)

9 On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour: 10 And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance, 11 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth: 12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air. 13 And there came a voice to him,

"Rise, Peter; kill, and eat."

14 But Peter said,

"Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean!" 

15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time,

"What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common." 

16 This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.

17 Now while Peter doubted in himself what this vision (Greek: to horama = "the vision") which he had seen should mean, behold, the men which were sent from Cornelius had made inquiry for Simon's house, and stood before the gate, 18 And called, and asked whether Simon, which was surnamed Peter, were lodged there. 19 While Peter thought on the vision (Greek: tou horamatos = "the vision" genitive form), the Spirit said unto him,

"Behold, three men seek thee. 20 Arise therefore, and get thee down, and go with them, doubting nothing: for I have sent them."

[R. Hartono]

40 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shabbat shalom, R. Hartono.

No, it sounds EXACTLY like something Peter would do! If someone would have the boldness and rashness to step out onto choppy waves, expecting to be able to walk to Yeshua`, one learns that Peter "acts first and thinks later!"

Besides, I think I will believe Yeshua` over you; Yeshua` called it a "VISION!"

Matthew 17:9 (KJV)

9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, 

"Tell the vision (Greek: to horama = "the vision") to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead."

These are the same words as in what Peter saw later:

Acts 10:9-20 (KJV)

9 On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour: 10 And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance, 11 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth: 12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air. 13 And there came a voice to him,

"Rise, Peter; kill, and eat."

14 But Peter said,

"Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean!" 

15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time,

"What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common." 

16 This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.

17 Now while Peter doubted in himself what this vision (Greek: to horama = "the vision") which he had seen should mean, behold, the men which were sent from Cornelius had made inquiry for Simon's house, and stood before the gate, 18 And called, and asked whether Simon, which was surnamed Peter, were lodged there. 19 While Peter thought on the vision (Greek: tou horamatos = "the vision" genitive form), the Spirit said unto him,

"Behold, three men seek thee. 20 Arise therefore, and get thee down, and go with them, doubting nothing: for I have sent them."

You are smarter than Peter.

Edited May 9, 2020 by R. Hartono

[Retrobyter]

28 minutes ago, R. Hartono said:

Not true

Shabbat shalom, R. Hartono

Really? Which part?

[R. Hartono]

42 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shabbat shalom, R. Hartono

Really? Which part?

They did not speak in Greek either, Peter wud not offer to make a tent if It was a vision but u think u know better.

[Retrobyter]

1 hour ago, R. Hartono said:

You are smarter than Peter.

Shalom, R. Hartono.

It has nothing to do with being smarter than a rock. It has EVERYTHING to do with BELIEVING THE MASTER, YESHUA` THE MESSIAH (Jesus the Christ)!

[The Light]

On 5/1/2020 at 3:06 PM, Revelation Man said:

 

Quote

hI show the Church in Heaven BEFORE the Rapture in Rev. chapters 4 and 5.........IGNORED. 

Quote

I show the Church returning with Jesus in Rev. 19....................................................IGNORED.

The church and the 12 tribes that were gathered in Matthew 24

Quote

I show Paul stating the Thessalonians are going to DEPART before God's Wrath and the Anti-Christ come on the scene....................................IGNORED.

Don't believe this is correct.

Quote

I show how the Saints who are Martyrs in Seal 5 can't be Jews as per Rev. 12:17, the REMNANT CHURCH can only mean the Gentile Church...IGNORED. 

This absolutely, without a doubt, incorrect. The seed of the woman are 12 tribes across the earth.. The 12 tribes across the earth will have their eyes opened when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in (pre trib rapture) (Pre 70th week rapture). The time of Jacobs trouble is about the Jews and NOT the Gentile Church. When the Lord comes for His bride, those that are ready go to the marriage supper. Those that do not have oil are not known by the Lord.

 

 

Edited May 10, 2020 by The Light